SGOTM 12 - Smurkz

[sercer88]

This might be a noob question, but what the blazes is an excel sheet gonna help?

Happy b-day Niklas Sr.

 

[ControlFreak]

sercer, you're going to need to look at the beginning threads of our previous SGOTMs.

There are several excel sheets currently available on the forum. They provide a way to plan what steps you're going to make, see how the choices you make in micromanagement affect the build times and population size of your cities. Niklas has a fairly quick and dirty spreadsheet from a fellow civfanatic (sorry, can't remember the author at the moment). It shows which tile's we'll work, when the town will grow, when our curaugh/warrior etc will be built. The more scenarios we can run through before playing the game, the better our decisions will be while actually playing.

CB knows the drill and won't start a game until we've had a chance to look at what we're going to run into on his turnset.

As a team rule, we all post a pre-turn strategic plan that includes:

Long Term goals (keep your eye on the prize)
Short Term goals (what are we trying to accomplish in the next 20-30 turns)
Turnset goals (how can what I do now, make sure the first two sets of goals aren't compromised.)

In the early phases, a game is usually all about getting your settlers built as fast as possible (REX=Rapid Expansion. I hope you're familiar with 4-turn settlers because the idea is invaluable to being a good player. If you've never heard of it, look for Bamspeedy's article in the war academy.

In this case we can't build settlers so the spreadsheet will help us decide things like:

• What should be build first?
• Based on what we're trying to build, which tiles should our work improve first?
• Better yet, would it be better to join the worker back into our city so we can have a higher population. (No, I say, no. I have a worker fetish and refuse to give up my worker. Kick, kick, scream, scream.:soapbox: )
• Does the growth cycle, potential sheilds per turn, commerce, etc justify moving 1SE versus staying put?

Well devised spreadsheets simulate what will actually happen when we play and be able to give us a chance to "play ahead" without reloading the game. (By the way, reloading is a no-no for competition.)

And for newbie's like you, having a spreadsheet is a great way to learn about micromanagement from the supreme micromanagers (like zyxy, Niklas and to some extent myself).

Example from SGOTM10, thanks to Niklas

 

[Niklas]

The spreadsheet is due to Offa, and it is a godsend. Thanks a lot, Offa!

And we may be low in postcount, but I'm absolutetly positive that we #1 in wordcount after your posts CF. But that is of course no excuse for not joining the discussion. *me dives right in*

So, it seems we are more or less decided on moving SE. The only reason I can see for not doing this is that it costs one turn, but since we will have access to the grassland cow from day 1 we will grow two turns faster, so any lost commerce and production from that turn will be quickly regained. And CF is of course correct about the commerce in our center, for some silly reason I didn't test it with our own civ (Byzantines) but with the Ottomans who came up as default, so I never got the seafaring bonus. Good catch.

I definitely don't think we should join the worker to the town, we will grow fast enough as it is and the worker is a lot more worth doing improvements, especially considering we don't suffer from a despotism penalty. With the rapid growth of our town I think roading the town we stand on first is a good idea.

Early build sequence, well, I'm torn between a warrior and a curragh. I really want to make contact with the AI before they manage to research our starting techs (Alphabet and Bronze Working) so that we can trade them for a number of first-tier techs. On the other hand an early warrior can be used as MP to improve our own research. I'll need to do a few spread sheet examples to get an idea of what I prefer. I'm not too curious about what's to the south of us, that can wait IMO.

Researchwise I agree with a quick run for Literature. Nothing else is all that important at this point. After that I hope we'll have traded for Pottery amongst other things, so MM for galleys would be nice (unless we can trade for that too of course). And I really have to strike Republic out of my mind, I don't know how many times now it has popped up unbidden .

Off to do some spread sheets now. But if we're all decided on moving SE, why not do that then and post a screenshot?

Roster:

• CommandoBob
• Niklas
• ControlFreak
• McLMan
• zyxy
• sercer88

 

[CommandoBob]

Preflight discussion.
Move Settler 1SE.
Worker to road the ivory.

00 4000 BC

Open game. Move settler 1SE. Alt + PrintScreen. Save.
Worker untouched.

And the save is >>HERE<<.
Could not upload through the SGOTM server; it thought this was a second start file (keying on 'BC4000' in the file name, I think).
​

The World as We Know It 4000 BC

And we see the cow that McLMan spotted, a BG and then jungle. And then we have coastline on the far side of those tiles.

 

[sercer88]

Wow, those spread-sheets are nifty little things!!

I read through the beginning of SGOTM 11 and all of SGOTM 10 (that barbarian twist was interesting, so I read on.) I think I understand a few things more than I did before. And I definitely think I am in the same boat that azzaman was in sgotm 10, except without the computer problems (I hope.)

 

[Niklas]

Interesting note - the western grassland cow is a BG cow. Let's hope we didn't lose any fish in the west by moving, but I'd think there would be some in the east too in that case. The island looks small, as expected.

 

[sercer88]

Are we ever (sometime soon) going to chop down the forests with the ivory? If so, we could use that to rush something. The question is, what?

I think we should chop one to make a barracks go faster, but that would mean the worker wouldn't be spending its time roading/improving the cows. I say this assuming we are wanting to build a rax early on in the game (first 20-40 turns, maybe sooner.)

I think we should leave at least one of the forests unchopped, because we will have enough food to survive working a 1/2/2(3 after road) tile.

As far as mid-term plans, are we looking to wipe out the civs closest to us? If so, I hope they don't have any resources, because they will probably have access to it pretty quickly.

Also, are we going to have to use colonies in this game? I know we need to know what the map looks like a little more, but we could consider it.

Somebody mentioned the SoZ (I think.) We do have the Ivory to build it, but what if we aren't the only ones with Ivory? The deity AI will probably build it before we even research mathematics!!

EDIT: Here's a quick question having nothing to do with the game: Where is everybody from? You can see my location beneath my avatar.

 

[Niklas]

Your comment on SoZ is spot on I'm afraid, and with only one town I'm rather certain our only chance to grab it is if we are alone with Ivory. If we want to that is.

Regarding the forests, I see no reason to chop them down in a very long while. We have abundant production with all the cows, and it would almost certainly pay off more to use the worker to improve them than to chop. We already have a 2F 2C tile in the lake btw, so I think those forest elephants are more worth to us with their forests intact for a while.

I think colonies might be a necessity in some places yes. But if they are on another landmass, we'd need a town with harbor on that landmass to get the benefits back home.

 

[sercer88]

I think colonies might be a necessity in some places yes. But if they are on another landmass, we'd need a town with harbor on that landmass to get the benefits back home.

Right, I didn't think of that. And I'm pretty sure that we are on a small island (though we still can't be absolutely sure unless we scout down SW.) So that would require some conquest

 

[AlanH]

Could not upload through the SGOTM server; it thought this was a second start file

lurker's comment: Correct. There can only be one !

(keying on 'BC4000' in the file name, I think).

lurker's comment:
Not really. That would be too easy to get around - you could change the file name. 4000 BC as the in-game date would do it, though

 

[McLMan]

Nice call on the move and post a screenshot. We've verified that our thoughts on the starting location were on track.

I feel very strongly that our first build should be a curragh. In building a warrior we'd be gambling that he'll be able to walk somewhere. We know that a curragh is going to be able to go somewhere. Even if we're able to walk somewhere, a curragh is twice as fast as a warrior which would better serve us in achieving our mid-term goal of meeting our neighbors soon.

After our borders are defined we should get some more data on whether to switch the build to a warrior (assuming we start with a curragh).

 

[ControlFreak]

Are we ever (sometime soon) going to chop down the forests with the ivory? If so, we could use that to rush something. The question is, what?

I think we should chop one to make a barracks go faster, but that would mean the worker wouldn't be spending its time roading/improving the cows. I say this assuming we are wanting to build a rax early on in the game (first 20-40 turns, maybe sooner.)

I think we should leave at least one of the forests unchopped, because we will have enough food to survive working a 1/2/2(3 after road) tile.

I don't think we want to chop them at all. Chopping gets us 10s. The forests make ten sheilds every 5 turns. If there's a grassland under them, they make no sheilds until mined and then only 5 sheilds every 5 turns. We have plenty of food to support working the hill and two forests even if we mine ALL of the cows. Irrigating the grassland cow for faster growth in the beginning means we can work up to five MINED plains. We could be a potential shield powerhouse. Let's hope Gyathaar wasn't as nice to all the other civs.

I don't think we want an early barracks unless we find a civ on our island. Barracks (and Granary for that matter) cost upkeep and neither will help us much in the early stages. Once we find some targets then we can get the barracks and start churning out units. But for now, lets save our money until we need it.

As far as mid-term plans, are we looking to wipe out the civs closest to us? If so, I hope they don't have any resources, because they will probably have access to it pretty quickly.

At some point, yes, we are going to aquire more cities by taking them from the AI. Research will be faster for us in the beginning if more AI's are alive (and we're pulling up the rear). Plus, Feudalism is a whipping government. We don't want to declare unless we can take their towns on the next turn. Otherwise we run the risk of attacking a size 1 town and losing it from the world forever.

Also, are we going to have to use colonies in this game? I know we need to know what the map looks like a little more, but we could consider it.

Colonies are a fine option. If they are on a different island, as long as we have a friendly civ with a harbor, they will connect.

Somebody mentioned the SoZ (I think.) We do have the Ivory to build it, but what if we aren't the only ones with Ivory? The deity AI will probably build it before we even research mathematics!!

I think we have a shot at ONE wonder since we have collosus as a prebuild and we're going to be very sheild happy. My preference would be the Great Lighthouse because we have lots of luxuries for trade and the Lighthouse enables trade over sea tiles. Plus our boats will get where they're going faster.

EDIT: Here's a quick question having nothing to do with the game: Where is everybody from? You can see my location beneath my avatar.

Mine's below my avatar too. Live here, but and not FROM here. Grew up in Connecticut, USA.

Curaugh first is fine with me. Writing at max.

 

[Niklas]

@sercer88: My location is also under my avatar. Copy it, go to maps.google.com and paste it in the search field, and it'll take you straight on top of my desk. Please don't use it for ICBM target practice.

Spreadsheets for this start are actually somewhat tricky to do. The problem being that no matter what we build and what tiles we choose to work, there's going to be overflow because the tiles are simply so good.

Here's one to kick off the discussion, optimized for fast growth and little overflow:

 

[ControlFreak]

I did a little more playing (and found out my spreadsheet is too unweildy in it's current incarnation).

Problems I see:

• Initially, there will only be two directions for the curraughs to go, clockwise and counter clockwise.
• There is potentially civs to our south/southwest that we won't meet without a warrior.
• We are going to be growing every 4-5 turns, but worker improvements take ten turns.
• We're facing 30 Diety civs, getting a wonder built is going to be tricky, but until libraries there won't be much to build (unless another AI is on our island).

My suggestions:

• Build Order: curaugh, warrior, curaugh, WORKER, Colosus Prebuild.
• Skip the road on the starting tile for now. I know that it will force us to use a little more luxury tax for a while, but It will get the city center to 5spt a turn earlier saving a turn on the warrior which follows the first curaugh. Mine then road the Plains Cow and repeat with the Western BG Cow. The second worker will road the Eastern Grass Cow, irrigate it and start roading the ivory tiles with the help of the first worker. Once they are roaded, the pair will mine them together and eventually be joined into the city or start roading to resources to colonize (if possible).
• Writing at Max. (We need to average 7gpt to get writing in less than 50 turns. I think we can do a lot more than 7gpt if we get the workers roading tiles quickly.

As far as happiness goes, we can use the Luxury tax initially, then stack a few Warriors for MP/get the ivory connected. If we're lucky maybe we can trade for or find a few more luxuries.

 

[sercer88]

Yes, I definitely think we need another worker, especially if we grow so fast that our people will become too cranky that our science will be hurting: put them to good use improving the land.

 

[ControlFreak]

OMT, be cautious about trading techs with the AI on the first turn of contact. Chances are most AI's will know several other AI. We can greatly devalue the opponents techs by finding the civ's that also have those techs. It's going to be a case by case basis, but I would think we could explore a few more turns after meeting someone without losing out on too many trade opportunities. If a civ has met another civ they will have four techs instead of two. We need to find the civ they traded with so that the cost goes down for all four techs.

 

[sercer88]

I know plenty of people have posted saying "full steam for writing" and literature, etc. But are we really going to try to keep up with the deity in terms of research the whole game (until we begin getting more powerful)? Maybe it is just some trading technique that I have not mastered yet, but it seems pointless from my experiences.

By that I don't mean to be derogatory or anything like that, I'm just trying to understand.

 

[ControlFreak]

My short answer is it depends.

If the AI are all isolated so that each only can meet a few others, the tech cost would be very high for everyone researching as first civ. On top of that, beakers researched come off the price of the tech as well, so we're not really wasting money per say.

EDIT: There is also the chance that our terrain with all of it's ivory and food is a gift, getting us a research edge on the competition.

I'm not saying research the entire game at 100&#37;, I'm saying rush for techs that make sense. We get a head start on writing over many of the civs that don't start with alphabet. Since they will have to research something in the meantime, they won't switch their research until the finish their tech or buy the tech they are researching. That might allow us to get to writing before maybe half the civs which would get us a chip in the game. Then, since literature is often researched last by the AI, we again might be able to get it before half of the civs. We also will be able to sell Literature all around because we want civs to build libraries.

Once we get Literature, there really aren't any techs left that we would beat the AI too. So I would shutoff research at that point, save gold, trade for twofers to get us to the Middle Age where we would again potentially have a Monopoly on our free tech.

Remember two things, one is we're going to want fast research, so doing our fair share to keep all the AI's enlightened is a good thing. Two is the AI will only have two cities and will be fairly slow to research any of the Middle Age techs unless they capture some other cities.

A very rough strategy would be, find the best researcher, trigger his GA to get two or three techs at fastest pace, buy them and sell to everyone, then conquer him and give his cities to the next fastest researcher. Rinse and Repeat. (Of course the nearby cities would become part of our empire.)

 

[ControlFreak]

You guys promised me I wouldn't have to be the

Lets get the strategy post up CB at least so we can get started.

 

[Niklas]

We still need a spread sheet before CB starts playing. I can take CF's posted suggestions and turn those into a sheet for easier reference, and we can decide if that's the direction we would like to go. I'll do that in a few hours.

As for our builds, I would like to see at least as warriors as the Feudalism MP cap (3?) built before we start any larger projects.