SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[AlanH]

Welcome to your SGOTM 12 team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on February 9th, at midnight, server local time.

This time we have an archipelago on a standard size map with 30 rivals (yes, that's every Civ in the book, so you know who they are), and everyone is destined to remain feudal for the entire game. You start with a settler and a worker as usual, and the AI all start with two settlers a lots of Deity units .... also as usual. But since there's not a lot of room for expansion, no one can build any more settlers.

Seafaring and Scientific Theodora finds herself in a world with 30 other civilizations. She and her Dromons are on a mission to bring civilized diplomacy to the masses ... whether they like it or not. The winners of this game will be the succession team that reaches a Diplomatic Victory by the earliest game date. All victory conditions are enabled, but only a UN vote in your favour will bring the laurels. Thanks once more to Gyathaar for the concept and map.

Here's the start.

​

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Byzantine
Difficulty - Deity
Opponents - 30
World - Standard, Archipelago, 70% water, 4 billion years old, warm and wet
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Knowing Gyathaar as we do, the map may have been tweaked

Game mods:
We shall use the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread, with the following changes specific to this game:

- All Civs start in Feudalism, and cannot adopt another form of government.
- No Civ can build Settlers.
- As city counts are limited, all Civs get ten extra free units in Feudalism.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included. If you have played previous C3C SGOTMs then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack. Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread..

Please ensure that you have included the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file:

A 'fix' for the Barbarians!:
As many of you know, the barbarians in C3C are 'broken'. This can be fixed by going to your \Conquest\ folder, and opening your Conquests.ini file, and adding a line noaipatrol=0 to the file. Whilst we cannot force people to do this, it will make the game a bit more interesting if you do. If you are not comfortable editing your .ini file, you can download a utility here to do it automatically.

Players running Civ3 Complete for Macintosh should contact me if they have any problems with the mod. If they are not running the Rev A version they will need to use FileValet to compress their saves for upload, and they may also need to use it to 'clean' downloaded saves before playing.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
The SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award set.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest Diplomatic victory. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final Jason score, having completed the game one way or another.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

 

[killercane]

Checking in. Looks like I got home at just the right time. I've been doing a fair bit of thinking on this game.
Questions:
1) Settle in place or 1 SE? I had assumed in place but now looking at it we may have an opportunity to get more land tiles in the radius after looking at what the worker shows when he moves to the plains cow. It would be nice to get to 27 spt/40spt in golden age with the capital. Is the grassland cow on a BG? 3 curraghs to start with? Edit: There looks to be another cow East on grass. We dont need a granary to get two turn growth with all irrigated.
2) Trading? It should be a pretty regular horsetrading affair for the first 50 turns til we get to philosophy. The key will be getting an AI to research math so we can do a math-writing trade. Tricky to accomplish. Currency as philo free tech I assume. We may be able to buy writing early from one of the frontrunner AI (I would speculate Dutch, Japan, Portugal maybe, they seem to value writing highly). We should be able to trade for everything if we do writing-philo-currency-literature. However, I think we should leave HBR out entirely from our trades. Why? Well, to get a free tech at the age change (which is no sure thing to be sure) we need to research our way into it to get to the big picture and it is cheaper to research than polytheism, MM, or CoL. Then we must have enough gpt +literature to actually get all the techs the AI have. This is an iffy plan as the AIs must get Mono or Engineering enough to lower the price where we can get it on the cheap. Potentially a great move though. Possible ways to enhance our gpt include getting the AIs into golden age (babs, sumeria, all the early UUs).
3) What about the Golden Age? Via Dromons or the MoM? MoM will give us some extra happiness which is not too bad in an OCC and with the inevitable WW we will have invading islands. Dromons are of course easier to do it with and cheaper.
4) Granary or no granary? I would say we would want to keep the city at size 5-6 until all tiles are terraformed and then do a mass add in. Is the granary worth it? I would think so as we could do 1 vet warrior and then a worker at size 5.
5) How significant of a force do we need to invade the islands? Early conquering is the best conquering here as we will need the unit support. I think the hill in our capital radius has to have iron. Any landing we do will be met by a swarm of archers or even worse, swords.

 

[markh]

Hi guys !

1SE is my thought, too. Definitely there is something SE, E, so it would be nice to get this into our city radius, too.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Edited the roster in this post so that we can find it on the first page:

1. Wacken
2. Abegweit
3. Killercane
4. Paul
5. Mark



So the AI also can't build settlers.
And they have deity starting units, so i guess we can't take one out very early unless we get them to move out of their city.
what units do they exactly have?
would they move out all their offensive units to attack us when we declare so that we can take their city and destroy their nation while their units are on their way towards us?

I have no experience with diplo games, how much does conquest damage our chances to win the vote ? What can we do and what not ?

Our goal is a research goal. We can make one super science city, or we can try and conquer as many as we can. Probably we should find a balance. Where will we find this balance?

What are our chances to build the collosus ? (we have an extremely good starting position, and maybe the AI will never choose it as first build ?

That something E-SE is a cow. With food in abundance, i don't think we need to move for the cow, more land tiles still sounds good of course.

 

[Paul#42]

Hey everybody! Welcome WOA and KC, nice to have you with us!

I'll post some thoughts soon.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Granary or not is the important thing here as it require us to research pottery first.

I don't really like the idea of irrigating everything for 10fpt. If instead, we build a granary and mine for 5fpt, the granary still is worth 5 spt. That is pretty good as well.

I actually see only 1 reason not to build the granary, and that would be if we want to build the collossus. If we do not build the collossus, the granary is worth 5spt, wich is enough to make it worthwhile even if we end up having a short term goal like building 10 veteran units for attacking someone.

I do not want to rule out the collossus though. If we can build it, it is incredibly powerfull for this game (I am assuming we are gonna build the science wonders somewhere in the future). However, we must be fairly sure that we succeed. If no AI chooses it as its first build, i think we can be fairly sure about that with our starting position. Even if they do choose it as their first build, i am not quite sure we wouldn't beat them with our start position and superior management.
Of course, if we try and fail, it's game deciding. However, if we do not try and another team builds it, it will probably also be game deciding in our disadvantage. Collosus also doesn't delay us from going for philosophy. Winning for philosophy is not game deciding though, unlike failing the collosus or not having it while an other team does. So philo is a minor issue here.


Collosus or granary is the issue at hand IMO.

(Edit, or maybe granary first will not slow down the collosus or only very little due to the extra growth and/or shields. I think we should make an excel sheet for how fast we can get collosus with and without granary)

@KC:
1: extra land tiles is good enough for a move. We can move the worker first, but before we play our first game, we must make the choise between Granary and Collosus and what tech to research.

2: I don't think there is very much to say about the tech trading yet. We don't know by how many they are grouped on islands and thus how trading amongst them will be. We don't know who we are gonna meet. We can't really make them research math. Math is not a popular research for the AI. Note, we now have 30 AI's competition for philo.
Giving them at least the opportunity to research math is a good plan. Other than that, i think only future can tell.

3: I prefer dromons as i don't think MoM is worth building and we will build Dromons for sure. Dromons also allow us to make a precise timing.

4: Very worthy, but so is collosus.

5: They have 8 spears and 4 archers to start with (if techs available, warriors otherwise) I think we should see if there are neighbours with no bronze working. Dromons will help in battle against coastal towns.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

If you guys agree with me that the collosus may be a key decision for this SGOTM, i think we should do the following things:

-Run test games to see if the AI ever chooses a wonder as it's first build (or maybe someone knows this) to see how often they build it (in other words, how many of the 30 AI will try it) and how fast they finish it. (i expect around 30 turns if they start it immeadiately.)

-Make an excel sheet to see how fast we can finish it with the following build orders:
-worker,granary,collosus
-worker,collosus
-granary,collosus
-collosus

 

[killercane]

@KC:
1: extra land tiles is good enough for a move. We can move the worker first, but before we play our first game, we must make the choise between Granary and Collosus and what tech to research.

2: I don't think there is very much to say about the tech trading yet. We don't know by how many they are grouped on islands and thus how trading amongst them will be. We don't know who we are gonna meet. We can't really make them research math. Math is not a popular research for the AI. Note, we now have 30 AI's competition for philo.
Giving them at least the opportunity to research math is a good plan. Other than that, i think only future can tell.

3: I prefer dromons as i don't think MoM is worth building and we will build Dromons for sure. Dromons also allow us to make a precise timing.

4: Very worthy, but so is collosus.

5: They have 8 spears and 4 archers to start with (if techs available, warriors otherwise) I think we should see if there are neighbours with no bronze working. Dromons will help in battle against coastal towns.

I dont think we have a chance at the Colossus, and would value early trading highly, if not for anything else, to saturate the AI with alphabet and masonry so they can get math (and then construction) in time for us. Pottery is a waste of time as we can trade for it, maybe not with alphabet early, but somewhere along the line to writing. We have 31 dumb AI to horsetrade with, thats a huge opportunity. Of course, if we have an isolated start that is out the window, but it would still pay to know that asap. We may even have an AI on our island.

Our unit support would seem to be 12. After 3 mps, dromons to carry troops, and troops, we will be running a lot of negative gpt. Units cost 3 gpt maintenance in Feudalism. 5 dromons and ten troops is -18 gpt if you add in the MPs. And we will want more than that prior to getting our second city.

And they have deity starting units, so i guess we can't take one out very early unless we get them to move out of their city.
what units do they exactly have?
would they move out all their offensive units to attack us when we declare so that we can take their city and destroy their nation while their units are on their way towards us?

I would speculate they have 10-15 archers and warriors to attack in the 2000-1500 bc range that will swarm at us if we land and they are on an island. We could cut a strategic road with dromon bombing, or set them to war with another AI if they share their island so that they are weak by the time we get around to them. They also start with 2 settlers, making an island landing a little bit Sid-ish in the number of extraneous units to fight.

 

[markh]

At least I am not the only one with very little diplo game experience.

I wonder how aggressive the AIs will be not being able to build settlers. If we start with another AI on our island I would be quite nervous trying to build a wonder.

 

[Paul#42]

I once read the diplo-guide by satchel on the war academy but my only Gotm-attempt so far failed badly

I wonder if we get one of those Ivory's commerce bonus if we settle on it
It might be worth a thought because we would get that extra every single turn.

It might be possible to build the colossus even quicker (or just slightly slower) with a granary before, especially if we really mine those cows.
We should also consider to irrigate one first and mine it later.

I hope I can run a excel sheet son, I really love this part of the game...
Of course everybody feel free to do it also. I might not be the fastest...

But of course it is tough to predict what a bored AI will be building if it already has all other senseless buildings and units
We might be faster anyway
Wait - this is deity How many shields do they need? 50%?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

They pay 60% at deity.

If anyone makes an excel, i suggest first posting here for what build order you are making one. There are so many options for worker jobs (like you say, irrigating first then mining) that it will take enough time to find the optimum for just one build order.
Others can then try for another build order.

Whether we end up building collosus or not, i suggest we make the excel sheets for it anyway. Whatever is the fastest way to build the collosus will also be the fastest way to produce 200 shields for other means like units. So the outcome of the excel sheet should be usefull either way.
I think we should make an excel for the first 30-40 turns or so and maybe even more for the top contending build/worker orders to see what is best.

 

[killercane]

I havent done any excel sheets, but made a scenario with the start position/30 civs/all in feudalism w/ +10 unit support. If anyone would like I could post it here. By mining every cow (no roading), and assuming the cows are on bonus grass (which I think at least the one visible is, there is something white peaking out there), we can build the colossus at turn 24 (2800 BC). Unfortunately, the AIs begin building it asap as well and I have been unable to succesfully build it. They build it anywhere from 3100 bc-2850 bc. In one instance, however, I was successful. It all depends on how supercharged their starts are.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I havent done any excel sheets, but made a scenario with the start position/30 civs/all in feudalism w/ +10 unit support. If anyone would like I could post it here. By mining every cow (no roading), and assuming the cows are on bonus grass (which I think at least the one visible is, there is something white peaking out there), we can build the colossus at turn 24 (2800 BC). Unfortunately, the AIs begin building it asap as well and I have been unable to succesfully build it. They build it anywhere from 3100 bc-2850 bc. In one instance, however, I was successful. It all depends on how supercharged their starts are.

and your build speed is optimized ?
may it be possible to speed it up?

Also, can you see the city that beats you, is it an extraordinary start for a random start or not ?

Edit: oh by the way, the save is available so you can check the cows for youself. One is indeed on BG, and one is on plains. The 3th we can see after moving our worker.
Shall we move our worker and save ? (no rule that we have to do 10 turns i think)

 

[killercane]

If we are all agreed that worker should go to cow (and I dont think anyone would argue against it), then we probably should do that so we can see some more tiles. If we further agree that we are going to move the settler to the plains SE then we could do that too.

On that subject and in answer to Paul's question, it seems that we get 5 commerce in the city center from settling on the ivory OR on the plains. I dont remember the rules for this, but was under the impression we would get the additional gold from settling on the ivory. Maybe it is that we get it at size 7 with seafaring bonus? Or perhaps it is gone forever. Regardless, I vote we move SE.

and your build speed is optimized ?
may it be possible to speed it up?

Also, can you see the city that beats you, is it an extraordinary start for a random start or not ?

Well it looks like any Scientific civ city with 2-3 BG can do it. The AI will irrigate them, and grow pretty quickly. If they have iron or can grow to size 7 it is a lost cause. I think build speed is optimized, roads wont allow you to get anywhere faster. A second worker might save a turn, I will have to check.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I was just typing a hell of a post, but i hit backspace or something and everything is gone. Im gonna type again later. The most important for now:
We agree that the chances to get collosus are pretty grimm.
I moved the worker. I saved and tried to upload it, but it doesn't accept 4000BC.

There is water there, so we may get 1 extra tile from moving or none. I suggest not moving.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

As a poker player, i always compare risks and rewards.

The reward for succesfully building the colossus is about 30% more research from our capital. With most of our research comming from there, it will be more than 10% of our total research. On a 200 turn game, it would win us like 20 turns.

The risk is losing 200 shields. I think however that this risk is severly reduced in this game. Due to the slow tech rate at the large map and only 1 city, we will have many 100's of shields worth of production before we can build swords/horses/dromons. All we have to spend it on is units. We can only have 12 units. If we are on an island, we can't use those shields at all, if we do have a neighbour, it means we have to fight with archers but we can't have enough to be a decisive force.

Therefore, i think we should go for the collosus even if the odds are against us.

 

[killercane]

Well if we agree that that is a cow east, moving will be compensated by having the two cows in the initial radius so that we are working both of those cows, rather than an ivory forest, until borders expand. That would be five turns working something other than a cow.

 

[Andronicus]

Hi guys

Anyone tempted to go for SoZ?
AC loaded onto dromons is a powerful combination
Who needs iron anyway? P'raps we have to fight for it!

Our science is not the only determinant in how quickly we reach UN. Although collosus would be a coup I doubt it is realistic as some AI will have litlle to build other than wonder.
Facilitating early contacts and trading to speed the tech pace (paying best researchers gpt whilst conquering poor researchers) should also be kept in mind as goal is fast research for early UN. Meanwhile developing capacity to self build UN (being at forefront of science towards end-game and pre-build in captured city)

Need to also keep in mind requirement not to upset AI who will potentially vote for us. One strong aggressive AI who has upset multiple civs would give target for UN opponent

The other useful wonder in this sort of game is GLH - increases dromons usefulness and denies AI.
But cant get greedy at diety, any wonder build should be carefully planned

 

[Andronicus]

Well if we agree that that is a cow east, moving will be compensated by having the two cows in the initial radius so that we are working an ivory forest until borders expand. That would be five turns working something other than a cow.

Agree with moving SE as that does appear to be cow ears visible
However forested ivory wont be avail to work until after expansion

 

[killercane]

You are right of course , I meant we are always working a cow until borders expand if we move. If we settle in place we are working an ivory forest for 5 turns. I'll go edit that.

SoZ for sure. We just need to get math asap.

Our science is not the only determinant in how quickly we reach UN. Although collosus would be a coup I doubt it is realistic as some AI will have litlle to build other than wonder.
Facilitating early contacts and trading to speed the tech pace (paying best researchers gpt whilst conquering poor researchers) should also be kept in mind as goal is fast research for early UN. Meanwhile developing capacity to self build UN (being at forefront of science towards end-game and pre-build in captured city)

We need some AIs to consolidate the others for sure. As soon as we have philo we might want to start some wars, so that the Sumerias/tough ancient UU civs out there will get 4-8 cities by 1000 BC and get a nice head start on the MA techs. Our science will be terrible until we have 10-20 cities. Unfortunately there are only 60 cities on the map .