SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

ChrisShaffer · Sep 14, 2010

A few initial thoughts and questions. And yes, a test map would be hugely helpful.

Fallout cannot affect coast. With rising seas, we will have lots of coast. Should we consider a sea-focused empire, based on The Great Lighthouse, as Plastic Ducks did in SGOTM11?
We cannot settle on fallout, so our first city must be on one of the visible clean tiles. We can have workers scrub fallout to clear desert tiles for future cities, maximizing the use of clean tiles by city workers.
Can forest spread on former fallout tiles? Should we attempt to maximize this possibility? Are desert forest better than ocean tiles?
A dotmap will be very useful, but for now I strongly favor founding the capital in 2cow,2gold,fish,clam - i.e. N,NE between the clam and cow. It saves a forest, maximizes food in the capital, and will give us a powerhouse. This will leave a (fairly poor, but viable) second city site south with rice and silk.
Initial research fishing, initial build worker. We are going to need a LOT of workers.
I wonder what it means that the other AI are in pockets of low radiation. Are their lands nicer than ours? If so, how can we acquire them?

Trystero · Sep 14, 2010

ChrisShaffer said:
[*]Can forest spread on former fallout tiles? Should we attempt to maximize this possibility? Are desert forest better than ocean tiles?

Forest can't grow on desert tiles. (at least according to this.)

Are scrubbed fallout tiles automatically converted to desert? I couldn't find much information on it in a rather quick search.

drlake · Sep 14, 2010

OK, this is my first SG, so I'm not sure what a couple of references mean. To start with, what is the bit about test games in WB? I've never actually used the world builder, I'm embarrassed to say.

ChrisShaffer · Sep 14, 2010

We can use the World Builder and scripting-fu to create duplicates of our game. We use the best information we have (currently, just the special mod, the screenshot, and the introductory text) and build a game. We can then play out scenarios using the created file.

If multiple people do this, we can better validate our scenarios, since they won't be contingent on the foibles of a single worldbuilder map. Not everyone has time or expertise to worldbuild, but we can certainly all play out options on the files that people create. Later in the game, if we worldbuild, the amount of work involved will go up significantly, so we may rely on only one file.

No matter what, be VERY CAREFUL that you only play test scenarios in the worldbuilder files. Do not play test scenarios in the real game file. Always check.

Other tips for new players: make sure you set your autosave to one turn increments, saving at least 9 files. I have mine set to save 99 files. Micromanage, micromanage, micromanage. When it is your turnset, check everything every turn. Sloppy play is not acceptable. Don't hesitate to stop and ask questions if you are unsure. We are friendly and do not bite.

neilmeister · Sep 14, 2010

I agree with Chris that N,NE seems the best position.

There is room for 3 cities on our starting peninsula, but the availability of fish in the fog will determine where they could go. But, this is obviously premature with so little of the map discovered.

I doubt we will need the Internet on Emperor, especially if we go for a commerce heavy strategy with the GLH. But before we can decide on this, we must first find out if:
- any wonders are already built
- the other AI are reachable
- they like us enough to open borders and get the trade routes

ChrisShaffer · Sep 14, 2010

neilmeister said:
- the other AI are reachable
- they like us enough to open borders and get the trade routes

From the opening text:

They have not forgotten.
all other civilizations are at war with you
You are land connected to at least one of the AIs.

Brian Shanahan · Sep 14, 2010

I'll third the start position, it's the best we'll get, as we've no warrior/scout this start. With mining we can hook up gold, and with hunting we're only 1 tech from AH (AH itself).

Sorry about using WB, thought it was a pretty ubiquitous term at this stage. I'm ok on the entering in of items in world builder, but for a complete test (though it's not neccessary), what's the best way of altering the civs starting? I believe I have to mess around with a save don't I?

Also internet on Emperor is only needed if we hard beeline the spaceship techs, and the Space Elevator is next to useless by all accounts (too late and too dear). It may be best to set up a test game too for a space race finish. Look at the threads in the strategy forum, and try to optimise the builds. This one can wait though until we've got the lie of the land and are near to starting.

I would say too go heavy on the pictures, especially in the early game. The more information we have the less chance we have of messing the save and disqualifing ourselves.

Finally I'll take over the scribe duties. Just use the reserved posts and give a short precis of the turnsets with the post links too.

Brian Shanahan · Sep 14, 2010

Yeah I know, I know, I'm sounding like a broken record here but a few more things:
1) we won't stick to the 24/48hr "got it"/play rules (post got it in 1 day 2 more to play) as discussion and preparation is important.
2) if anyone has problems with playing a set (e.g. off to visit internetless granny), please give advance warning so we can swap/skip as needed.
3) this is supposed to be fun, so if I get mad with power, or if anyone get too het up, please tell us where to stick it. Winning is nice but we don't want to go too far, a nice game and some education is the main goal.

Trystero · Sep 14, 2010

Brian Shanahan said:
I'll third the start position, it's the best we'll get, as we've no warrior/scout this start. With mining we can hook up gold, and with hunting we're only 1 tech from AH (AH itself).

That start looks fine to me as well.

Sorry about using WB, thought it was a pretty ubiquitous term at this stage. I'm ok on the entering in of items in world builder, but for a complete test (though it's not neccessary), what's the best way of altering the civs starting? I believe I have to mess around with a save don't I?

I've had some experience with WB for MTDG II. I would load the BUFFY mod for this game and start a game using the "Custom Game" setting. Then enter the game settings for this game (select appropriate leaders, etc.). Launch the game then enter WB and muck around with the map.

ChrisShaffer · Sep 14, 2010

I usually start a custom game in order to specify the other civilizations, then use worldbuilder to rearrange things. You can also edit the AI in the WB text file. The AI known techs will actually give us a discount, since we have contact with everyone. I'd rather not count on that though.

neilmeister · Sep 14, 2010

As all of the resource tiles have fallout, except for the fishies/clams, can I suggest that a workboat (or 2) might be the best way to start, this will help us to faster produce the mountain of workers we will need. NO barbs will help us with this.

This is the first thing I will be testing.....

ChrisShaffer · Sep 14, 2010

Warrior first might actually be best. Can't build workboats until we research fishing.

neilmeister · Sep 14, 2010

Good point !

Earthling · Sep 14, 2010

Brian Shanahan said:
Wow I'm turning into a right little dictator, amn't I?

It's all right I've got my engraver working on a grand dining room for you.

Regrettably though the rest of team has the following orders:
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
AttendParty
Kill Dragon <soldier unavailable for orders>
Finish Homework

I'm looking forward to the game. I hope I didn't do anything specifically wrong last time, don't think so, but I know I wasn't very active/out of the turn rotation in the second half, and I'll try to be more consistent here on this one. Looks like much fun and best luck to all.

Trystero said:
I've never read Terry Pratchett, but I've ordered The Color of Magic from Amazon to get into the spirit of things.

I only read Equal Rites so far now, but have got to find more of these in any library I can I guess.

Game related thoughts!

I'll try a test save, particularly if I have time Friday/Saturday, I've done enough before for other games/Demogames and so on.

I don't think Space Elevator or Internet will be too necessary or even helpful, the game will be war heavy and few AI are tech powerhouses, so we will probably have to self-research space techs.

For initial settling, not quite sure what I like (testing will help

) but thinking coastal with the clams/fish is very tempting even if we move on opening turns.

ChrisShaffer · Sep 14, 2010

The current spot is terrible. We cannot settle in place. So moving on turn one is inevitable.

Trystero · Sep 15, 2010

Here's an attempt at a test save.

I made this save using the BUFFY-SG12 mod, so you'll need to load that when opening it. I used the listed game settings, pre-settled all the AI, eliminated all their units, gave them all Ecology, and changed their diplomacy setting to "at war" with us. I'm not sure how to give us the "you nuked us!" diplomatic penalty, so I skipped that.

I also didn't bother to cover the entire map with fallout. I matched the fallout pattern for our start, and tried to place similar patterns around AI capitals (leaving at least one food source w/o fallout in each case). I figured we are going to use these particular saves for the early turns so there wasn't much point to do the entire map yet.

ChrisShaffer · Sep 15, 2010

I would also point out that there is no guarantee that the AI capital areas have as much fallout as ours. The wording in the first post is ambiguous. It's entirely possible they have lovely pockets of land with very little fallout and multiple resources.

As the last piece of modern communication equipment fails, shocking news reveals that the former enemy civilizations were not wiped out as believed. The survivors managed to reach pockets of relative low radiation to re-found their capitals.

Also, in the rules thread, Erkon clarified that the AI may have units.

Erkon said:
"The AI capitals are pre-settled. All biological units have died from exposure to radiation, except your settler."

"All" in this context means world wide, so the AI will not start with any workers. As stated earlier, "biological" in this context means any unit that breathe and eat. A scout is a biological unit, a work boat is not for example. I hope this definition suffice.

Are chariots biological? Tanks? Airships? Battleships?

You have to script edit the file to give 'you nuked us' penalties. You can simulate it in worldbuilder by giving negative diplomatic points.

Brian Shanahan · Sep 15, 2010

ChrisShaffer said:
I would also point out that there is no guarantee that the AI capital areas have as much fallout as ours. The wording in the first post is ambiguous. It's entirely possible they have lovely pockets of land with very little fallout and multiple resources.

Also, in the rules thread, Erkon clarified that the AI may have units.

Are chariots biological? Tanks? Airships? Battleships?

You have to script edit the file to give 'you nuked us' penalties. You can simulate it in worldbuilder by giving negative diplomatic points.

I'd say any early war units can safely be considered biological. Also I'm guessing that our neighbour (I'm thinking of big and small type map from the description) is not going to get any advanced units, due to the instant loss nature of that trick.
I'll play with Trystero's save, modding in the diplo points. We should find out if the game is "Always War" or just starting at war.

ChrisShaffer · Sep 15, 2010

The victory conditions would be impossible in "always war" so that setting cannot be enabled.

Brian Shanahan · Sep 15, 2010

Ok I played 50 turns. I tried upping the diplo penalties in WB, but they weren't showing. I gave Stalin a -10 and everybody else a -5 (figuring more hate from Komrad Dzhugashvili).

I did an autolog for most of them. Forgot the first 3:

Spoiler :

Not much happened.

My turnset was:
3960BC Build Ankh-Morpork {hereafter AM} (I would suggest an aternative naming convention because of 2 Russias). Start warrior, research fishing.
I also notice immediately that we can build recycling centres off the bat.
3840BC AM expands borders.
3680BC Tech: Fishing>AH (thinking back Fishing BW would be better)
3640BC Warrior>WB
France and India will talk but no deal. (either we're going to have to do some head smacking or gifting to get peace)
3160BC Tech: AH>BW
3120BC AM grows to 2 pop.
3040BC WB>Warrior
The WB farms the clam.
2840BC Warrior>Worker.
2560BC Tech: BW>Writing
2200BC AM Worker>warrior
2160BC Fallout is 6 turns to clear.
2000BC Warrior Worker.

Ok the path is sub-optimal. I should have gone Warrior>Work Boat>Warrior>Warrior> Work Boat>Worker on builds I think (well warriors until BW tech).
On tech, especially if we've a close neighbour we should go Fishing>BW>AH I think and then decide to chase the Oracle (longshot) or go Writing>Aesth.>Poly>Lit for the GLib.
Starting in war with diplo hits that will get bigger will make a good chance to do a bit of choking with the right forces I think. If I had an axe or two I could be doing some serious bottling of Washington atm in the save.
Finally it's a bit weird to be building warriors to the modern music set.
Here's my 2000BC save for perusal and comparison.

SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

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Lentils have feelings too

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