SGOTM 12 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[ChrisShaffer]

There are a lot of things you can do with the real save, but be VERY CAREFUL.

You can look at all the information screens. You can look at your own cities and adjust production. You can change the research path. You can find out how many turns of anarchy a civics change will cost. You can fog-gaze to try to see what land is on the edges of known land. You can take screenshots and post them on the forum. You can change the research/cash/espionage slider.

You can look at the diplomacy screens and ask the AI questions - but ONLY questions that won't cause an irreversible change. This one is tricky, so be careful. You can ask "what would it take to make this deal work" or "what would you offer me for this" for example, but NOT anything that causes war, breaks an existing deal, or creates a new deal.

So it can be useful, but it can also be nerve wracking. Do it with extreme caution.

 

[drlake]

There are a lot of things you can do with the real save, but be VERY CAREFUL.

You can look at all the information screens. You can look at your own cities and adjust production. You can change the research path. You can find out how many turns of anarchy a civics change will cost. You can fog-gaze to try to see what land is on the edges of known land. You can take screenshots and post them on the forum. You can change the research/cash/espionage slider.

You can look at the diplomacy screens and ask the AI questions - but ONLY questions that won't cause an irreversible change. This one is tricky, so be careful. You can ask "what would it take to make this deal work" or "what would you offer me for this" for example, but NOT anything that causes war, breaks an existing deal, or creates a new deal.

So it can be useful, but it can also be nerve wracking. Do it with extreme caution.

So, ideally the person who's turn it is will do a lot of this stuff, and post screenies and commentary for discussion?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

In my experience, everyone will do it. I have been known to do it with every single save file. You can learn so much from looking at the real file. Anyone who is making a test map will need to do it in order to verify information. It's just a great tool for all of us to use to learn things about the game. Just be careful, that's all.

The person who uploads the file (i.e. the person who just played the turnset) should post screenshots, the CivFanatics log file, and the BUFFY log file. Please make sure that your BUFFY options are set to automatically save the BUFFY log file - it's the colorful one. When you upload a save file, please make sure you copy the CivFanatics log file - it's the plain text one. We need both to successfully analyze what happened.

The person whose turn it is must download the file, successfully open it, and post a "got it" message.

 

[drlake]

In my experience, everyone will do it. I have been known to do it with every single save file. You can learn so much from looking at the real file. Anyone who is making a test map will need to do it in order to verify information. It's just a great tool for all of us to use to learn things about the game. Just be careful, that's all.

The person who uploads the file (i.e. the person who just played the turnset) should post screenshots, the CivFanatics log file, and the BUFFY log file. Please make sure that your BUFFY options are set to automatically save the BUFFY log file - it's the colorful one. When you upload a save file, please make sure you copy the CivFanatics log file - it's the plain text one. We need both to successfully analyze what happened.

The person whose turn it is must download the file, successfully open it, and post a "got it" message.

OK, so do we all individually download it, or does the person playing that round share the save? Just making sure I know the procedures so I don't screw anything up.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Usually we download it from the server individually.

Sometimes, the active savefile will be attached to a post on this thread, if there is a specific question that must be answered mid-turnset.

I suggest you spend a few hours reading the threads from the previous SGOTM to get a feel for it.

 

[drlake]

Usually we download it from the server individually.

Sometimes, the active savefile will be attached to a post on this thread, if there is a specific question that must be answered mid-turnset.

I suggest you spend a few hours reading the threads from the previous SGOTM to get a feel for it.

D'oh! I definitely need the weekend, since I never thought of that...

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Ok seeing as Chris has put up this turnorder, and noone has objected the game will go (barring unforseen events):

Brian Shanahan >>UP
ParadigmShifter >>ON DECK
drlake
Trystero
ChrisShaffer
neilmeister
Earthling

Obviously I am not going to play until we've finished our tests and decided on the strongest start. But I will nose around the save to see if I can spot anything useful.
This is my got it

Ok I've looked at the save, done nothing and as far as I can see there is no difference from Trystero's second save. Given the current information available this is probably the best configuration for getting all the useful tiles used on the peninsula. There is not much else I can add without playing a turnset.

 

[Earthling]

Nice analysis Earthling. Although moving to the coast loses the +2 health bonus from fresh water, the coastal start will also have fewer total fallout tiles in it's BFC since there is no fallout on the ocean tiles. If you SIP, you get +6 unhealth from fallout, if you settle at the coast you only get +3 unhealth from fallout. .

Yes, but the way I saw it working out, is that SIP gets +4 at the start (rivers and forests, where we also have +2 more from forests SIP) and then we pick up cows and Rice earlier, which essentially leave the problem moot. Just having the loss of 1 food for the first 30 or so turns in the capital is devastating up by the coast the way things work out. If we have a better way to prevent this I'd be for settling the coast for sure, otherwise I think we should still look at a little more testing. Play 40, 50, 60 turns or whatever but compare the overall results - I get maybe a little more commerce on the coast but less food and hammers so far.

So I encourage more testing. I think we can at least start with, SIP with worker in first, versus on the coast with warrior/workboat, those are both clearly the optimal options for those cases, so unless anybody has a really good new idea won't have to replay the very first turns again.

I agree not having fallout all over probably changes a little bit of what the AI does, but in Trystero's test AI are distant enough away not to matter as well.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Are the flood plains still flood plains? Or are they riverside desert?

 

[Trystero]

They are defined as riverside desert. I used the tile definitions that Erkon listed in this post for recreating the start.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Well, I see lots of opportunities for testing the possible starting city locations this weekend!

 

[Trystero]

Should we have a standard set of objectives we are trying to achieve with each start? That would make comparisons easier.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Should we have a standard set of objectives we are trying to achieve with each start? That would make comparisons easier.

Yes.
As far as I can see we've tested the possiblities of the clam start.
So now the options are SIP, or on one of the other forest tiles the best options of those are IMO 2 west, 1 north-west or 1 south-west. Everything else is fallout and thus non settleable.

 

[Trystero]

Actually I meant objectives like produce 2 warriors, 2 workers, a settler and tech to Writing, etc. That sort of thing.

Edit: Not that I'm suggesting those objectives, necessarily.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I'd just like to see the output for each test with turn numbers, e.g.

Production: Warrior (7), Workboat (12), Worker (17), Workboat (24)
Population: 1 (2), 2(8), 3 (22)
Research: Fishing (6), Animal Husbandry (14)

and so forth.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Actually I meant objectives like produce 2 warriors, 2 workers, a settler and tech to Writing, etc. That sort of thing.

Edit: Not that I'm suggesting those objectives, necessarily.

Well the best bet is to pick a spot and run a few test games based around trying to do something different each time there. Then compare the runs to see which gives the best results.

For the clam spot after doing a few tests and seeing the results of others I believe the best result is Warrior>WB>Worker>WB, and see from there. Now we have to find if there is any position which trumps that.

Personally I'll try the spot 2 west of the start position and see what I can get from there. It'll be a warrior>worker>warrior>worker.

For tech in that spot I'll probably go Agri>wheel>pottery.

 

[Trystero]

From the maintenance thread:

@ Erkon
Can you please enlighten us, poor mortals, how you managed the "you nuked us" without launching a nuke?
And how you managed to give an AI a project?

This is surely nothing spoilerish, since any participant have already seen the save and it's now "acquired knowledge".

But it would be interesting to learn some WB tricks.
Provided you haven't WBuilt 6 ICBMs, launched, then eliminated the sight of the cities, there's always the project. Damn, it can be added in the city editor, it can't be hurried.
And i'm strong in WB.
Some string in the tile containing Stalingrad, perhaps?

Am I to understand that someone (Stalin?) has the Manhattan Project? I thought some AI's might have advanced techs, but not completed projects.

@Brian: Would you mind listing what we know about the start conditions from looking at the real save when you have a chance? I'm a bit nervous about downloading it to take a peek myself.

 

[neilmeister]

The intro to the SGOTM very strongly hints that one or more AI have the ability to build nukes.

It might not mean a completed project, but it might mean they hae the technology to build the manhattan project for instance.


Oh, and I agree that more testing is essential. The start is obviously the most important thing in the game!

 

[Trystero]

My reading of BLubmuz's post is that he is asking how they gave the AI a project, which I am guessing is the Manhattan Project.

I'm hoping his post is answered, since he also asks about assigning the "you nuked us" penalty at the start, which would be helpful for testing.

 

[neilmeister]

^^
I think Kossin did answer him. All will be revealed in the Event Log after we start.

Settle: SIP, attempt 1 (Neil)

Techs: Agr(7)->Wheel(16)->AH(27)->BW(40)->Pottery(will be 49)

Builds: Worker(15)->Warrior(23)->Warrior(32)->Warrior(part)->On pop 3 Settler(45)->Finish Warrior(46)->Worker(will be 52)

Pop:
Size 2 (25) -> Unhealthy
Size 3 (34) -> 2 Unhealthy
Health issues resolved turn 44, when cows are connected in

Units:
Worker->Rice->Scrub(23)->Farm(27)->Cow->Scrub(35)->Pasture(39)->Road(41)->Road(44)->Rice->Road(46)->Gold->Scrub
Warrior->Explore
Warrior->MP
Settler->NW, for fish
Warrior->go with settler

I stopped at turn 48, when the settler was ready to settle the city 2, t get Fish & Gold, on a tile that is not in the original screenshot.

Turn 48:
Pop 3, 10 bpt, 4 hpt, 6 fpt


*********************************************************************************************************

Settle: SIP, attempt 2(Neil)

Techs: Agr(8)->Wheel(16)->Pottery(26)->AH(36)->BW(50)->Writing

Builds: Worker(15)->Warrior(23)->Warrior(part)->Granary(43) when Pottery learned->Warrior(part)->Settler at pop 4(will finish t53)

Pop:
Size 2 (26) -> Unhealthy
Healthy again(32) due to rice connected
Size 3 (34) -> Unhealthy
Healthy again(39) due to fallout being cleared
Size 4 (45)


Units:
Worker->Rice->Scrub(23)->Farm(27)->Road(30)->Road(32)->Cows->Scrub(39)->Pasture(43)->Cows->Scrub(50)
Warrior->Explore
Warrior->MP

Turn 50:
Pop 4, 10 bpt, 6 hpt, 5 fpt

Granary was a waste of time this early. Health issues were resolved before it was built. Though it will obviously be of good use for whipping.