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SGOTM 13 - ChokoMisfits

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Feb 19, 2011.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    BtS SGOTM 13 - Napoleon's Revenge



    Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 13 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

    In a break with tradition, I am not going to copy the Game Details into this post. You can find them in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

    Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

    Good luck, and remember rule #1 - ENJOY THE GAME!
     
  2. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Grabbing the initial posts for future team information, tracking posts, etc.

    ChokoMisfits has generally not operated with a team "Captain" as such, but various members have handled team admin duties. I volunteer to handle these tasks for this outing, if no one objects.
     
  3. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Post reserved for roster info, who is up tracking, and similar team admin info.

    Roster (as of T117, 1075 BC):

    JerichoHill (UP!)
    Sleepless (on deck)
    McArine
    haphazard1
    shulec
    Sun Tzu Wu
    Ozbenno (just played)

    -
     
  4. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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  5. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    OK, that should do for admin stuff. Now we can get started! :D

    Welcome back, returning team members, and welcome to the team, shulec! We face the challenge of returning from exile to our tiny island to conquer or dominate the world. We are told that the difficulty is officially Emperor, but will seem tougher due to the map.

    As I mentioned some time back in the SGOTM12 team thread, I created a test save with my best guesses at the overall game parameters plus the same start position as we can see from the Maintenance Thread info. I have attached it for those who want to give it a try. I will not spoil how things turned out just yet, so others can provide their thoughts and impressions, but I will mention a couple generalities.

    I have played a couple partial games (through early AD years) from this start, and found it rather tough. Tiny island starts are always difficult, with the necessity of spending hammers on work boats for the initial seafood, plus additional naval units for exploration and expansion off the intial island. Slavery helps, but initial happy caps are very low and complicate city management.

    I also found that early health can be a major problem. On Emperor without fresh water, a city only gets 2 health by default until resources can be brought on line. If you settle on the plains hill forest for the extra city center hammer, this leaves only one forest for no bonuses and a starting health cap of 2. So watch out for losing food to unhealthiness very early on.

    I intend to play another game or two from this start, and then I will report some of my results once others have had a chance to play it unspoiled (if they want to, of course).

    I look forward to playing this SGOTM with all of you. :)
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Checking in!

    Happy for you to do the admin duties haphazard!!

    I reckon the map has us in a small islands type section of map and the AI together in one continent elsewhere that we can only reach by Astronomy. Who knows???
     
  7. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    My thoughts on the possible map (in spoiler tags, in case you want to try the test map without knowing ahead of time):

    Spoiler :

    I expect we will be in the tiny islands portion of a Big-n-Small or Medium-n-Small type map, with the AIs starting on large land masses. Might be one large continent, or perhaps several, but they will have plenty of land to expand into while we deal with little islands. :( Plenty of map editing is possible, of course, so it could be a totally custom set up.

    I do not know about needing Astronomy, but it is possible. On the test map the main land masses are reachable by coast, but by an indirect and fairly long path. You will not reach the main land masses before the AIs have had time to expand a fair bit, anyway.

    For the "tougher than Emperor normal" aspects, the start has no copper, horses, or iron anywhere close. There are some reachable off the main landmass, but not easily. (Think iron in the ice.) Also, there are no pre-Calendar luxuries, and only a couple plantation ones, until you get to the main land mass. Which will already be mostly owned by the expanding AIs....

    From the mention and Wikipedia link to the Sixth Coalition, I decided the European AIs we would face will be England, Russia, Germany, Spain, Portugal, and the Vikings (representing Sweden and Norway). Ragnar got the Great Lighthouse to start and plenty of coast, so he will be a major threat to tech rapidly and maybe steal the Colossus and circumnavigation.

    We will have to see how accurate these guesses are -- they are just my thoughts based on the small hints we have been given.
     
  8. Sleepless

    Sleepless Chieftain

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    Checking in as well. Thanks for the test game haphazard1 and I'll give that a try also happy for you to do the "admin" duties. :)
     
  9. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    I am checked in... and moving on!

    I know very little about 19th century European history, so I read up on the pertinent history for our SGOTM. In particular, I focused on Napoleon's exile. In 1814, he was exiled to Elba, a small island, part of a group, 20 kilometers from Tuscany in Italy. He escaped from Elba, went back to Paris, ruled for a few months and then lost the Battle of Waterloo. He was then exiled to Saint Helena, in the Atlantic Ocean, 2000 km from land.

    Since it has been revealed that we are starting at Elba, I would guess that we will be able to sail directly to a continental land mass or with cultural border expansion, eventually sail to the land mass with galleys. If we were starting on Saint Helena, I would expect to need astronomy to contact other civs.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    While the GLH is out, the Colossus is not and that seems very obvious to get commerce up. I think its clear we will be building economy early and then transitioning with our economy + hammers in the mid-game to warring.
     
  11. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Some random thoughts on the test map....

    In the last SGOTM, the test map would have been useful to get a handle on the rules of the game (when/where you/AI can/can't clean up fallout etc), whereas there aren't (to our knowledge at the moment...) any odd rules in this game, so the test save is useful to test out different strategies, effectiveness of wonders, starting positions and initial builds etc.

    If possible, we should try and update the test save with map conditions as we play and keep re-visiting it as we go along.
     
  12. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Ozbenno,

    We can try to keep the test bed up to date as much as possible. But a lot will depend on circumstances in the real game -- if we end up in a different part of the world, for instance, I do not know of a simple way to shift/copy a chunk of map to another part of the globe. So the real game might "run off the border" of our test map, which could require a complete rebuild from scratch.

    Still, it is a good idea and we should try to do this for as long as we can.

    I agree with JH that going for the Colossus is a good idea. In my test games a lot of my total commerce was coming from coast tiles, and the Colossus would boost those by 50%. A great deal will depend on how large our starting area of tiny islands actually turns out to be. If we can reach a larger land mass early, then we will start adding inland cities and Colossus is less important. If we are stuck with tiny islands for a longer time, then Colossus will boost almost all of our commerce.

    In any case, starting from tiny islands just feels so incredibly slow. I played another test start today, settling on the corn and pushing expansion as much as I could. It still took seemingly forever to get a second city founded -- need Sailing and a galley, plus the settler, with work boats and a worker earlier. I am not getting a second city founded until like T70. :( I could do it faster if I paid attention to nothing but expansion, but then you haven't had any naval units to explore and are gambling hugely on where to put the second city.

    At least I am doing better with micro, and have the local region explored and a work boat on site for the second city the turn it is settled. Previous games I was not managing even that much. :hammer2:
    I will try switching Sailing ahead of BW -- I wanted to be able to slave and to chop/mine the forested plains hill, but I ended up mining the grass hills first anyway and did not whip until later. So I could start the galley earlier....

    All this assumes no copper, but that seems likely. Makes the Colossus more expensive too, although if we Oracle MC then we can pretty much count on getting the Colossus. Not sure if I should take a couple settlers instead of the Oracle, though, and just spend the religious line beakers directly on MC?

    I am definitely looking forward to other's thoughts on the start. :D
     
  13. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    Thanks for the history lesson. I agree that it is significant that DynamicSpirit mentions Elba. Although it seems reasonable that a Galley could travel from Elba to the Italian peninsula, I suspect that we can't necessarily conclude that we won't need Astronomy to reach the European powers. We will probably have to determine this via some initial exploration.

    Thanks for the map; it really helps one visualize where Elba is.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  14. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    So, we really don't know what the real map type is. It's probably some custom map that DynamicSpirit created or modified to varying degrees.

    Big and Small, Medium and Small, & Continents are definite possibilities.

    I wonder whether we'll be given a better clue when the REAL start map becomes available for download Feb. 27th? Maybe F8, tab Settings will reveal something; maybe not.

    In any case, we will obvious want to move the Warrior onto the Plains Hill for a "look see". We will only then see where our initial 1, 2 or 3 cities can be built. I was wondering whether it made sense to settle two or three cities on our initial island, depending on its size.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  15. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Also like the idea of Colossus, especially if we Oracle MC and doubly especially if we have copper (although this could be unlikely).

    Where to settle is our first port of call though...



    Must admit, didn't think about settling on the corn (do you get an extra base food??) but settling on the plains hill (wastes the forest and to an extent but get an extra hammer/turn). With settling on the corn (compared to default position), we gain one grassed hill but lose a clam and the corn (although our grassed forest and hill aren't needing a galley to get to).

    In any case, moving the warrior NE should be done first to see if there are any seafood tiles in that area (probably not).
     
  16. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    Galleys and Culture:

    Galleys are supposed to be able to move freely within one's own Culture and even those Civs one has Open Border with. Does anyone have a firm understanding of when a Galley can move from shore via Culture? I don't build Galleys much, so I'm not too clear on the movement rules regarding "Galleys and Culture".

    Just some obvious observations regarding Napoleon's traits:

    Organized:

    Lighthouses get +100% Hammer boost. Great synergy with Tiny Islands which we will need to work normal Sea plots for the +1F.

    Charismatic:

    Monuments add +1 Happiness. Monuments provide +1 Culture per turn and +1 Happiness, so we will probably want to build them in each initial city when Happiness is hard to get.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  17. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    Doesnt corn give us +1 health which is important on emperor?

    I have an near universal rule of settling on plains hills...that hammer is big, but we will lose +1 health
     
  18. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    Yes, connected Corn provides +1 Health and settling on Corn gives it to us immediately, since Napoleon starts with Agriculture. Napoleon also starts with The Wheel which is also great to have early on. Nets on Clams will provide another +1 Health.

    I agree with settling on Plain Hills; the extra 1 Hammer per turn really speeds up the beginning of the Game, but we probably want to know about our island before we commit to settling our Capital.

    I'd suggest that we need to wait for the official game start on Feb 27th, so we can move the Warrior onto the Plains Hill; then we might better plan our city locations.

    Until then we can use the test game that haphazard1 provided to get a favour for the game were about to play.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  19. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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  20. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Lots of good ideas and good points being made already. :)

    I agree with Sun Tzu Wu that we will need to evaluate the real map when we make our settling decision -- an extra seafood to the east would change everything. But we can get a feel for early development paths with the test game. I have noticed early wonders (Stonehenge, Great Wall) being completed by the AI with significantly different dates: as early as 2425 BC in some cases, or over a thousand years later in others. So there is wide variation even with the same map, AIs, and resources.

    I have not yet tried a multiple-cities-on-home-island start; I will have to do so. If there is land north of the grass forest (and it looks like there should be), then we can plant at least 3 cities. There would be a ton of overlap and competition for good tiles, but it is possible and would mean additional cities a lot earlier.

    Settling on the plains hill is often a good strategy for the extra hammer, which helps with workboat production early. But it does waste a forest, and also removes the strongest unimproved hammer tile for early production before we get a worker to mine the other hills. It also removes one potential mine. Being central, it also prevents settling any other cities on our home island.

    My experiences with tiny islands areas is that food is plentiful but hammers scarce. Most production has to come from the whip, or later from drafting. This is why I tried settling on the corn -- it is the only spot which allows 3 mined hills. With the grass forest the capital could get 12 base hammers/turn quite early on, and not need to whip everything.

    Settling in place will have immense amounts of food and OK hammers (10 hpt max) once we ferry a worker to the small island. Hmmm, better than I realized. It would make an amazing settler pump, plus occasional whips thrown in for galleys and overflow for work boats. Managing overflow carefully to get the most from the whip will be crucial.

    I am convinced. :) A test game settling in place plus extra cities on the home island (probably as almost pure fishing villages for commerce) will be my next attempt.
     

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