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SGOTM 13 - ChokoMisfits

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Feb 19, 2011.

  1. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    I have looked at the picture of the starting map on three different PCs. It is plain as day to me on two of my PCs that there is not land north of the two northernmost hills. I find it unusual that on my work PC, I can't see as much detail and the northern aspect of those tiles I can't see ocean.
     
  2. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    I have reinstalled C4, BTS, updated to current patches, and gotten the HOF. Ready to go, so I will try out the test save today since I have the day off. Will report tonight.

    I think that savings the plains hill is probably most ideal, given we have two food resources already visible, we really just need the +1 health from the corn which we get regardless, and we get a big time production tile for later.

    I intend on trying to get the Col in my test save., and stopping once its built
     
  3. Sleepless

    Sleepless Chieftain

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    Well I played a couple of test games. One up to approx 2000BC settling on the corn and one up to 1100BC settling on the plains hill.

    Initial thoughts I do not like settling in place as the early production doesn't seem much although as haphazard mentioned not really alot of difference once we have sailing and a galley built.

    What I think we can all agree on is the first four techs we need though what order is the problem. A lot will depend where we settle and we won't know that until the warrior moves the the plains hill. First move should be to that square then post the save/screenshot. :)

    So techs for me are fishing - mining - sailing/bw. Obviously if we settle in place we can't mine anything till we have sailing/galley or bw.

    Fifth tech should be mysticism, whip a monument and get an immediate happy to counter the whip.

    Spoiler regarding test game

    Spoiler :


    Def no micro but managed to get 4 cities settling on the ph, oracle (finished 1225) to MC which I traded to joao for alpha/iw. Other thing to remember MC gives us tiremes. Otherwise we might end up with lots of barb galleys pillaging our seafood and galleys aren't great at defending.


    So I am in favour of going for Oracle - MC although a lot depends on surrounding lands and whether the hammers are better going for settlers instead.
     
  4. McArine

    McArine Chieftain

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    Checking in, and welcome shulec :)

    I agree with shulec, I see water in the two tiles north of the part of our island that is visible.

    I haven't got any experience with island starts, so I'm not much help there. I'll try out the test game soon.
     
  5. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    Thank you all for the warm welcome!
     
  6. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Settling in place has great longer-term potential, but it will definitely be slower at the start. It has only the standard 2/1/1 city center, compared to 3/1/1 on the corn or 2/2/1 on the plains hill. The grass hill requires a galley before it can be mined, and the plains hill can not be mined until BW and will take a bunch of worker turns (although producing a small chop in the process).

    I intend to try it anyway, because it would allow another city on the home island without needing a galley first. That could offer significant advantages, with the second city sharing the corn, and able to work a bunch of coast and grab an initial TR with the capital for some early commerce.

    Agree on the first move, then we can discuss our settling options with some certainty.

    I also agree on the tech path starting Fishing/Mining. I have been trying BW then Sailing, but it might be worth trying the opposite order. Not sure it would work settling in place, but if you settle the plains hill or corn then you could have a couple mines up to build the galley earlier. Then use a 3-pop whip to get the settler out as soon as BW is finished.

    Not sure I agree about whipping the monument. With Epic speed each whip anger takes 15 turns to wear off, and wherever we settle we will have enough food to grow back much faster than that. If possible we should 2-pop (or 3-pop) whip something, timed for maximum overflow, and use the overflow to finish the monument. The same is true of the lighthouse, since we are Organized.

    Galleys are one possible whip target, especially if we can get a turn or three of hammers into them and whip at 25-29 hammers invested (46-50 hammers remaining) for 40+ overflow. We do not have a lot of other options early, although the barracks can also work if we have not invested too many hammers earlier. (I often dump hammers into a barracks at the start while waiting for Fishing to complete, to avoid hammer decay in a warrior.)

    Spoiler regarding test game

    Spoiler :

    Four cities by 1225 BC? Or is that the Oracle date, and the cities were later? If four cities by then, I have obviously been missing something huge in my test games.

    How many barbs have you seen? Land barbs should not bother us much, but losing our seafood is a concern. Once we get some additional cities planted, our core should be safe as barb galleys only have a visual range of 8 tiles.
     
  7. Sleepless

    Sleepless Chieftain

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    Whatever tech route we take we are going to need to do a lot of whipping in this game and will need a lot more micro than I normally do to time the whips right. As for the test game.

    Spoiler :


    I do tend to stack unhappiness quite a bit when whipping. The thing to remember is settling offshore cities give an automatic trade route worth 2 gold so its not as bad as settling an unconnected city on land.

    Colossus I don't think is worth building unless we have bronze. It was to big a build for Paris to build with its limited hammers and I did miss out on it to Joao. If I had realised where the bronze was I would have settled that early which would have made a big difference. Sent my exploring wbs the wrong way and didn't find it till late. In fact I settled the stone/iron site before I found the bronze.

    Yep 1225 BC four cities, the Oracle, 2 or 3 exploring wbs (most important as we really want the navigation bonus). Only 1 worker as not a lot for him to do though I would expect to build more in the actual game.


    The other thing I'm thinking of being able to Oracle is feudalism. For the game itself conquest by vassalisation would be more my thoughts on the way to go. To much land possibly for domination. So finding an early neighbour and taking him as a vassal would be a big early boost. That and LBs don't need a strategic resource. :)
     
  8. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Must admit my initial thought was that there was no extra land in the north but after staring at the starting position for ages I'm not so sure (but still don't think there is any)...
     
  9. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    I played the test save till turn 150 (350 BC). I completed The Oracle in 1400 BC and took Metal Casting. I built a Galley (9t) before Forge (20t) and failed to build The Colossus. The AI given The Great Lighthouse built The Temple of Artemis and also The Colossus on turn 149 (365 BC). Had 8t left on The Colossus. If I had skipped the Galley, I would have completed The Colossus and would not have known how close to losing it I was.

    I suspect that was a freak occurrence of the AI with The Great Lighthouse deciding to research Metal Casting earlier and perhaps being able to chop The Colossus.

    I still think we should use The Oracle for Metal Casting and build The Colossus, but as I just learned, we can be complacent about building The Colossus.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  10. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    I believe there is land north of the leftmost of the two northern, clearly visible plots. haphazard1's test map captures that quite well. Compare it to the picture of the start in the SGOTM-13 thread.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  11. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    We are going to have to really micromanage this start as optimally as possible:

    We aren't going to match the Hammers of the AIs. We are going to have to be the Technology leader despite one AI starting with The Great Lighthouse. We need to have Technologically superior military units. We are going to need to make contact with the AIs and hope they we accept Open Borders and trade. We do want to be the first Civ to travel around the world, so we should send a Work Boat both East and West (as Sleepless suggested).

    We should also built a Lighthouse early, since with the Organized trait, it costs the same to build as a Work Boat.

    Agree that initial builds should be Work Boats and somewhat later a Worker. I think the first Work Boat should be built at 4 Hpt without Growth, so it completes in 11t. The others can built at 1 Hpt and +4 Fpt. Barracks build sounds fine, until Fishing is available in about 10t.

    We need get an optimal beginning game and just keep playing that way (optimally). The winner of the any SGOTM is the Team that comes closest to that ideal. We really will do it this time (1st place). We are going to really need to play the test game a lot to try out different micromanagement techniques.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  12. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    Sleepless,

    From the intro info in the Maintenance Thread, Vassals are off for this game. So we will have to do our conquest/domination the hard way.

    Oracle to Feudalism is still an interesting idea, especially if we do not have any strategic resources available. Pushing down the Monarchy line would provide much-needed happiness as well. I think we definitely need to invest in early exploration, so we will have an idea how close we are to larger land masses and the AIs and whether we have any copper, horses, or iron within reach. Then we can choose our Oracle target, with Metal Casting or Feudalism being likely options.
     
  13. Sleepless

    Sleepless Chieftain

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    Ouch should have realised beforehand to read the games main instructions unlike the last SGOTM so no vassals. :)

    So domination seems more likely than conquest. In which case settling more early cities becomes more of a priority. Plus side more cities means more troops and guess we are going to need a lot.
     
  14. haphazard1

    haphazard1 Dancing Bear

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    With a tiny islands start, early cities will not actually add much land for domination. But they will add research, and if they have decent food available they will add some troops as well.

    We have not really spoken so far about more ambitious targets for the Oracle, such as CS. Admittedly, with our capital not likely to be a real monster at either hammers or commerce it makes much less sense to risk losing the free tech. But maybe we should consider CoL? A religion of our own for happiness could be useful, and getting cheap organized courthouses going to reduce costs and get some EP going (Hi Sun Tzu Wu! :D ) could be very useful.

    Speaking of our capital...we should keep the idea of moving our capital in mind, especially if we capture a strong AI capital early (or kind of early).
     
  15. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    I played a similar test game to Sun, except I did not get the galley but I successfully got the COL via the slingshot.
    I settled on the corn, fwiw.

    I don't think this is a win-early game. I think the target time is going to be around the time of knights/trebs/cur/muskets. So I'd rather go strong economy @ first and then using worker builds transition to hammers around the time we start getting these units, probably the ideal transition time is immediately around getting the knight build ability.

    Workboats for scouting = huge.
     
  16. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    I agree that we are going to want huge numbers of cities for many reasons. As Sleepless says it will help with domination, especially the larger islands. As haphazard1 says it will be great for Research.

    Settling in place will make our Capital a very quick Settler spammer. I'd like to see that start optimized; how soon can we get Nets on all three Clams, a connected Corn Farm, build a Lighthouse, Granary, Monument, probably via Slavery (great reason for a Granary). So goal is population 4 ASAP. Will that be soon enough to start our first Settler? Should the first Settler be build at Population 3 with Lighthouse in place and before Worker built? Lots of initial city micromanagement to be explored.

    We should also think about how to get a Work Boat off east and west, probably via Slavery and maximum overflow from whipping.

    Since each Population at Epic speed generates 44H, we can get up 43H of whipping overflow, enough together with the City's remaining Hpt to build a Work Boat in a single turn. For the Worker build, we may want about 30+H overflow, so a 2 Population whip will generate close to 43H overflow.

    To use whipping effectively, our first whipping target should be a Granary, so we must research Pottery quite early.

    I still like getting Metal Casting from The Oracle and building The Colossus. We need to optimize both building The Oracle and The Colossus. We need to consider how to whip maximum overflow when Priesthood completes. We need to consider chopping 1 or 3 Forests to speed The Oracle and thus hasten the Forge and The Colossus builds. The Oracle probably will need to be built in the Capital, since it is likely to be the only mature City with enough Hammers to complete it in time, but we should consider a second City with high Hammer potential for building The Oracle, if feasible; that will permit continued spamming of Settlers from Capital. A nearby island that has numerous Forests which would be a great place to build The Colossus; in any case, building The Colossus in another City would be best so Capital can continue spamming Settlers.

    We can get Code of Laws from The Oracle. What do we with Code of Laws, other than build half priced Courthouses (which will be great for our economy)? Run Caste System? Slavery might be better. Maybe, early half priced Courthouses is reason enough.

    Courthouses via Code of Laws works for improved economy. Also, Currency will provide a second trade route plus selective Market builds can help.

    Technologically more advanced military units will be a key ingredient to successful War campaigns combined by an first assault that captures all of an enemy's Port cities. So we must maximize Commerce that can be diverted to Research.

    We can try to capture key Great Wonders like The Pyramids and The Sistine Chapel. The Pyramids for Representation (+3 Bpt per Specialist). The Sistine Chapel for 2 Cpt per Specialist (even Citizen Specialist) and 5 Cpt per State Religion building. This will help expand borders of widely spaced captured cities where there's no room for new cities.

    OK, so we need more than the two Work Boats we send East and West to circle the globe. Maybe 1-2 more Work Boats. We will want a Galley and Warrior/Scout after we get Sailing, if we encounter larger islands that can't be fully explored by a Work Boat.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  17. JerichoHill

    JerichoHill Bedrock of Knowledge

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    Sun, when I said COL I meant Colossus.
     
  18. Sleepless

    Sleepless Chieftain

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    I've been trying to think of our likely opponents in this game.

    English - Likely Victoria
    Germans (Prussia) Bismarck
    Spain - Isabella lots of religious differences might help us stir up some AI wars
    Portugal - Joao
    Russia - Catherine

    Struggling with the sixth. Possibly the Ottomans for Hungary. Romans for Italy but guess w'll have to see. The likelihood is we will be able to stir up some wars and get the chance to backstab along the way. :)

    Tech thoughts. To early to get to involved without knowing the lie of the land but I would like us to try and get currency as soon as possible as a main aim.
     
  19. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    Sorry, I misunderstood. I'm not so good at picking up what is meant from context, so it might be best to avoid ambiguous acronyms so "idiots" like me have a better chance at understanding.

    So you built The Colossus; That's great! What turn did you build The Colossus on?

    In my attempt, I would have gotten it on turn 157 (BC 245) if Mr. AI owning TGL didn't, but I didn't optimize too much. Also, as mentioned before, I could have really gotten it on turn 149 (BC 265) by skipping a 9t Galley build.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  20. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Chieftain Supporter

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    If the AI Opponents are Industrial Era appropriate, an unreasonable assumption, since DynamicSpirit said only they would be European powers, I would eliminate Isabella and Joao II. However, I'm sure this is not what DynamicSpirit meant.

    They could be former enemies of Napoleon I or former friends. I don't think that DynamicSpirit would have chosen only Industrial Era opponents. It is far more likely that he chose all the nations conquered by Napoleon I and his French Empire or its allies:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_French_Empire

    Nations that split off the First French Empire:

    Bourbon Restoration (France = De Gaulle/Louis XIV)
    United Kingdom of the Netherlands (Willem von Oranje)
    Neutral Moresnet (Small Belgian City State = no BtS match)
    Kingdom of Sardinia (Part of Italy; See Tuscany below)
    Austrian Empire (former ally = Mehmed II/Suleiman)
    Grand Duchy of Luxembourg (Small Nation = no BtS match)
    Grand Duchy of Tuscany (Northwestern Italy = Julius/Augustus)
    Kingdom of Spain (Isabella)

    I'll add Norway (Ally = Ragnar)
    I'll add Russia (1812 enemy = Catherine/Peter/Stalin)
    I'll add Portugal (Initial Enemy = Joao II)
    I'll add Germany (Bismarck/Frederick)

    So my suggested BtS Opponents would be:

    De Gaulle/Louis XIV
    Willem van Oranje-
    Mehmed II/Suleiman
    Julius/Augustus
    Isabella
    Ragnar-
    Catherine/Peter/Stalin
    Joao II
    Bismarck/Frederick

    This list contains 9 AI Civs and needs to be trimmed to 6, but I have no way to exclude any as they all fit. Eliminating Willem van Oranje and Ragnar would be my guess as the Netherlands is small and Norway far away, but one more still needs to be eliminated.

    Agreed. Currency will likely be an relatively early Technology to improve our Economy.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     

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