SGOTM 13 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[neilmeister]

Yeah, if we have copper or not is obviously a big factor in speed to build Colossus, but we have to do some tests.

I removed copper from our updated test game, as this allows us to test under the worse case conditions.

 

[Trystero]

One problem I see with the clam site is that to get access to the marble bonus, we'll have to fort the site and road it, as quarries without direct access to a city don't count (unless I'm missing something) for trade route. And the island with the marble is a 2 tiler, look at the bleed into the fog if you doubt me, so not much good for anything unless it's got 2 of it's own seafoods in the fog.

This is correct. I ran a WB test. We get no benefit from marble at the Western clams/marble site. This eliminates the attractiveness of settling on the 2 tile island.

 

[neilmeister]

I'm not so sure, we won't get the marble 'connected', but we do get the hammers, and it is hammers that is our concern for now, if city 2 builds Colossus. If the cap builds Colossus, then the pigs/fish site will be the best to pump settlers.

If city 2 can have Clams & a mined GH, without a border pop, then it will get going faster than any of the other options, without affecting Oracle completion.

Brian pointed out that we can still get the marble, when we build a fort, but I don't see this as a big problem.

 

[Trystero]

OK - you're right. A fort gives us access to the marble. I overlooked that. Sorry about that.

 

[Benginal]

Alright. I've been super busy and will be for the next little bit of my life. But I did a test game in my head during class today, and settling on the western desert on the east island to get the pigs and the fish worked out really well. .

Also, I'll be in England (Crosby!) next week. I plan to have internet. But you never know for sure what's going on on that side of the pond. So if I fall of the face of the earth more so than I already have, that's where I am so skip me, etc.

 

[Trystero]

Alright. I've been super busy and will be for the next little bit of my life. But I did a test game in my head during class today, and settling on the western desert on the east island to get the pigs and the fish worked out really well. .

Did we settle on a resource?

Also, I'll be in England (Crosby!) next week. I plan to have internet. But you never know for sure what's going on on that side of the pond. So if I fall of the face of the earth more so than I already have, that's where I am so skip me, etc.

Crosby?

You can stop by ParadigmShifter's place and play there!

Sorry I have been really busy with work and the PTA at my son's school this week. I should have time to do testing this weekend.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'd have to tidy up. Crosby is just down the road though. PM me if you want to go for a beer in the Liver (damage) Hotel. I can also give advice on kebab shops in the Crosby area.

Cherie Blair and Anne Robinson are both from Crosby!

 

[drlake]

I just finished writing a paper for a conference (I'll be in Montreal next week) and (hopefully!) fixing the basement wall, so I've got time this weekend for some testing as well.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Okay finished humiliating myself on the Botm, finished watching the horrific news about japan with my wife (who is japanese), time for some testing, even though without knowing where the copper is feels a bit gratuitous.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

First notice : I can't edit the micro sheet.
next city maintenance cost : W Grassland city -2
I tried settling the w grassland, it's a nice site, but it takes time to be online and competitive : it needs the fish to work the mines, and that takes the monument and a workboat.
I have the colossus out by turn 136 (but a few turns can be shaved), 3 cities, and a settler out in 7 turns. 4 turns from monarchy, researched masonry and animal husbandry to work the stone and pig.
New try, by settling pig and fish first.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Okay finished humiliating myself on the Botm

Too much information there dude!

I hope your wife's family and friends in Japan are all OK.

 

[Trystero]

First notice : I can't edit the micro sheet.

Are you logged in? You have to log into gmail with the email address you sent me in order to edit the spreadsheet.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Ok when starting with the desert city, things are actually a bit better (kinda) :
First is that even when starting with the E desert, the fish becomes workable quickly : the capital does a nice border pop.
Colossus goes at pretty much exactly the same time, since I build it in the capital.
This time, I was more cautious to micro an engineer immediately : it gives us a good chance to pop a great engineer, and generally speeds up. In the test game, I popped a GP before Colossus was completed, and the 2 hammers that come from the settling are very much appreciated, not to mention the 5 golds.
This time, I had already settled the third city, and a fourth settler was halfway done in the desert city.
The west grassland city was still building a monument.
I could do a test with settling the clam and marble city first, but in retrospect, it feels quite weak.
Still going to give it a go.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Updated a slightly less sloppy micro testing (I don't go for detail, since copper will dictate many plans.)
I ended up doing a work boat before oracle : it's there just when the border pops and just when the city 2 is founded. It's a great way to kickstart the city into a nice settler production site. And I don't think that losing 5 turns really hampers our race (you're allowed to make me swallow my words when we end up losing it...)
Working the engineer makes sense in my mind : the additional GP will be good whichever the type. After a bit more playing, I ended up building Moai in the capital, reaching a fairly decent 20 hammers per turn (with a settled GP).
Our tech rate wasn't stellar, but still decent, and this all thing might pay off. We will have Metal Casting and Monarchy to trade with the AI that we will meet, plus a possible Aestetichs. Thus said, I might go with Neil on this one, and I think it will depend who we meet. There is nothing more annoying than to not trade Alphabet and the bloody AI taking forever researching it. So, if none of our neighbours have it by the time we complete monarchy, might be worth researching it ourselves.

 

[neilmeister]

Sounds like some good testing. Good discovery about border pop onto the fish.

I had similiar thoughts @ great people. If we get an engineer, we can build 'mids, a GP can be settled, either way its cool.

I haven't had a chance to do any testing myself yet, but I am starting to think that having the galley hang around long enough for the worker to build a mine for city 2, and get back to chop will make such a big difference that it will be worth the delay in exploration.

Early alpha is always nice, you can sometimes trade Writing & PH for filler techs, before even having to give away Alpha, and we will have MC for really juicy trades. We will have to see who we meet!

 

[Alamankarazieff]

A few more micro analness : I felt it's better to leave the corn in Paris for now, and to work a coast instead until we get Bronze Working. Population grows too early, and we can't do anything about it.
We have to remember to not unload the worker on the same tile as the settler : on almost every site, the worker starts working on a hill, and if we don't unload it on it, we lose 1 turn climbing it.
I'm not sure ultimately about chopping the forest to rush the Oracle : the speed at which we get Pottery becomes the limiting factor. Without chop, I could 3 pop whip it 1 turn before we get the tech, so had to wait. Ultimately this chop turns into food that we save, and we can agree that we have this a-plenty. For the colossus now...

Thus said, I just did a testing with settling on the W grassland first, and having this city build the forge and the colossus, pumping settlers and workboats (and a couple of triremes) in the capital.
We get the colossus much later (still assuming a worst case scenario without copper), by turn 150, but the rest of our mighty empire looks quite good : there is 5 cities, with adequate workboats online, trireme for protection and a second worker out (who admittedly don't have that much to do).
I played a few more turns to around 160 and we have a max BPT at about 75, and most importantly, a sustainable research rate at about 75%, around 60bpt.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

We could put some hammers into a worker or settler to prevent too fast growth.

 

[neilmeister]

Agreed about coast vs corn, I had the same thoughts, once we are at our happy cap.

I'm very happy with a later Colossus, t150 is still OK. We want it so we can afford a large empire, so obviously if we can't have a large empire, there is no point in having it.

Your testing shows that you are aiming for a good balance, with settlers/WB/triremes/workers being produced. It is easy to skew test results by not having balance. Did your worker mine the stone?

As you have put some work into the W grassland, and the pigs site, I will focus my testing on the marble site.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

With the marble site, delaying the oracle for workboat could be good, since it have immediate access to the clam.
Also, putting a workshop on the tip of the central island (where the worker is right now) could give the extra hammer, that the site lacks compare to the stone one (that I mined before having masonry.)
Might not be as weak as I thought it was.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Nope, as weak as expected.
I did a quick test up to turn 150 by settling on marble city first. It starts faster, but the production never goes beyond the "meh" stage. Colossus ETA was around 170.
West grassland is in my opinion the best spot to settle, and I do believe that Colossus not in capital is a more valid strategy.
The micro for the capital needs to be thought through carefully though.
I tried granary, forge, then settlers, WB and trireme (the last 3 in no particular order for now, all depending on happiness, population...)
The granary is a must have : with its 3 food sources, it bounces back from whipping really quickly, which mean we can get extremely whip happy (and I was during my testing)
The forge allows us to run the engineer and I think is worth it, but it would be worth trying a with and without a forge in the middle (or just building it with spillovers for example)