It sounds OK, but when did you build Oracle? We do not want to delay it by too much, I know we are building it reasonably early, but I don't want to risk losing it. Especially after investing so much into it. I really think we have to build it by t95, at the latest.
Agreed about researching AH, but I would do it after Pottery.
Ok sure, it's just a few turns, and a few turns less of pigs is not as damaging as a lost oracle.
Let's also bear in mind with all our micros that we WILL have copper and that colossus will accordingly go much faster. Hence more stuff out by 1 AD.
Other food for thoughts, if the scenario is roleplayish, the other AI could all start mightily pissed off with us, so let's not count too much on trade.
And last of it : representation vs hereditary rule. As by 1 ad, my biggest city was at 7, most were around 5 or 6, and I didn't have in any of them more than 3 warriors. Wheras I had a few specialists out. Representation also give a nice happiness bonus. If at some point it's not enough, then we will be able to decide that now is the time for HR, but to start with, representation beats hereditary rule.
If we get Oracle out in the eary 90's, then we have the best chance. Trystero did quite a few tests to determine Oracle dates, so if we are beating his earliest AI dates, that must be good.
I would agree that Representation is better than HR, until the fourth/fifth cities are unhappy, but have units. Unless of course you have a massive amount of food, which we don't, and go whip crazy. The problem is that you need Pyramids (well, almost) to go into Rep.
The real power of Pyramids may well be Police State. I think it is quite possible we will want to be in PS for at least some of the game. Obviously, without a GE, its a moot point. If we don't get one, I will want to be in HR.
So, I think we are starting to agree that the E desert is where we will settle?
What about the cap's production order?
- should we whip a monument, or a WB into Oracle?
Once we have decided this, I think Trystero can complete his set. Until we get Copper, or Oracle is built, whichever comes first.
This is probably true. I'm hopeful that copper is nearby. That will allow the Capital to get out the Colossus quite quickly and that will probably allow at least two more settlers.
Other food for thoughts, if the scenario is roleplayish, the other AI could all start mightily pissed off with us, so let's not count too much on trade.
This is an excellent point. I think it would be very theme appropriate. But given this, how are we going to deal with open borders and stuff. Getting foreign trade routes are a 150% increase compared to domestic, so we really want a neighbor to trade routes with. If not get important techs from.
And last of it : representation vs hereditary rule. As by 1 ad, my biggest city was at 7, most were around 5 or 6, and I didn't have in any of them more than 3 warriors. Wheras I had a few specialists out. Representation also give a nice happiness bonus. If at some point it's not enough, then we will be able to decide that now is the time for HR, but to start with, representation beats hereditary rule.
The cities will be small at 1AD. But HR really shines in the vertical growth that comes in the common era. So Rep might be okay, but we'd hopefully only be in it for about 50 turns. And remember that the opportunity cost of this GE is a GS: so are the extra beakers from Rep more or less than the extra beakers from the Academy. I think for Rep to be better we'd need to be running ~4 specialists. In my empire at the end I was only running two.
The real power of Pyramids may well be Police State. I think it is quite possible we will want to be in PS for at least some of the game. Obviously, without a GE, its a moot point. If we don't get one, I will want to be in HR.
The Pyramids do provide that option. And it might even be worth it building the Pyramids with a GE just for HR. But then also the ability to switch to PS later.
Sounds good to me. I've been doing the west tile and then the third city at the very bottom tip of that island. But since the capital's next border pop gets the fish, it doesn't really matter that much.
I was whipping a workboat into it so that it could be there as soon after city 2 was settled as possible. We can whip a monument whenever, it's not as vital as getting city 2 active. (I was whipping that monument into the forge/colossus.)
For early worker micro: make sure the worker goes with the initial galley and settler and is unloaded onto the desert hill. The worker can mine that hill right away and then just zzz over there until it gets a lift back to the main island.
I actually built the workboat, before the oracle. Again, a 5 turns delay, but this one makes a massive difference for city 2. If you're THAT stressed out about Oracle date, we can wait and whip it, but I think building it is worth it.
The worker can actually road over the pig and all the way down to the stone, rather than just napping.
That's true. I was settling my third city before that though. So as soon as the worker finished the mine on the desert hill, he went down to mine the grassland hill for the other city.
Other food for thoughts, if the scenario is roleplayish, the other AI could all start mightily pissed off with us, so let's not count too much on trade.
This is an excellent point. I think it would be very theme appropriate. But given this, how are we going to deal with open borders and stuff. Getting foreign trade routes are a 150% increase compared to domestic, so we really want a neighbor to trade routes with. If not get important techs from.
We started the last SGOTM with Brian nuking all the AIs back to the dark ages (we tried to talk him out of it). This could not be worse than that diplo situation. Although I hadn't considered that we might start the game with the "You declared war on us!" demerit. That is a good point about open borders.
I'm ready! I will look over stuff tonight and probably play tomorrow if the plans are set. Since we not going to want to finish the Oracle before Pottery is done, I think I'll play until we finish BW. This would be at about 20 turns for me anyways.
OK, I've modified the micro, to reflect whipping the WB into Oracle. City 2 really gets going fast.
Settling E Desert gives us more options on where to place the stone city, my best results came from building a lighthouse. I let it grow to pop 4 before starting settler, as this gives us a few more options. It produces commerce, is much easier to whip from....
We 3 pop whip Oracle on turn 91. Check this, as if it is a 1 turn whip, then someone else built it that turn.
edit: Gypsy Kings Oracled, on or after t94.
edit 2: I presume we will send the galley east, after he drops off the settler & worker. Its as good a direction as any, and the galley is already east of the cap.
OK - the next few turns seem clear enough. I've downloaded the save. This is my "got it".
Edit: Just to be absolutely clear here is my turn plan:
Spoiler:
This turn (t70): worker boards galley,
Next turn (t71): settler finished, settler boards galley, galley moves 1SE + 1E.
t72: galley moves 2E
t73: galley moves 1E + 1NE, both units disembark 1SE onto desert hill (What the heck does "change tax rate" mean? Run the slider at 0% research for one turn I presume?)
t74: settler moves 1NE and settles the 2nd city on the east desert tile, worker mines the hill it is standing on.
Everything else is follow the micro plan until BW is finished and revolt to slavery.
Ok, personal note, I'm still a bit uncertain about the mechanics of whipping. Useless personal information : I played all the way up to emperor without ever using it. I didn't know the forum, and it just felt too evil. But going beyond monarch proved tough, I started reading the forum, and embraced the dark side.
Yet, a few things are still muddled. I mean it's fairly straightforward when you have a city with the production capacity of a paraplegic sloth but lots of food. Whip the lazy wankers and get stuff out.
But I'm more confused about the rest : the way you describe it starts to make sense.
I'm going to think aloud (a-written ?) and please correct me if I'm getting it wrong.
Case A : We build the work boat, then the oracle, production time add up one after the other.
Case B : We build the work boat, whip it after 1 turn, then go back to oracle, the overflow goes into the oracle and we don't lose any hammers nor production turns, except that the population is smaller to complete the oracle, and possibly smaller.
Case C (the correct way from what you seem to describe) : You build it till the last minute, then whip it. You still have the same overflow and no lost hammers, but you benefit from the work of the population that's going to get whipped longer.
Am I correct, or should I return to giving group hugs to my population and let the grownups whip ?
Each pop whipped is worth 45 hammers (on epic), which goes through any applicable multipliers. That's all there is to it really (except there's a penalty for whipping wonders or whipping on the first turn of a build).
Case A : We build the work boat, then the oracle, production time add up one after the other.
Case B : We build the work boat, whip it after 1 turn, then go back to oracle, the overflow goes into the oracle and we don't lose any hammers nor production turns, except that the population is smaller to complete the oracle, and possibly smaller.
Case C (the correct way from what you seem to describe) : You build it till the last minute, then whip it. You still have the same overflow and no lost hammers, but you benefit from the work of the population that's going to get whipped longer.
There's no always difference between B and C. The thing to pay attention to is how full your food bar is. Let's say you're at size 5, then to grow to size 6 you will need 32 food. So if you're food bar is at 31, and then you whip to size 4, the next turn you will grow right back to size 5 and not miss any population. If you have no food, then when you whip from 5 to 4 you will have to wait for 30 food.
The best way to learn about whipping is just to play a game where you do it a lot. Try a elephant, catapult rush where you can 1, 2, and 3 pop whip stuff.
As always, I'm still learning myself. So reading this article is probably a good idea for both of us.
OK I have played a few turns, and I have a question for you all: Do we want to give any credence when settling to the "blue circle"?
Spoiler:
If I recall correctly, the suggestions for settling take into account unrevealed resources. Is that correct, or has it been patched? I ask because I wonder if we are been steered away from settling on copper/iron/whatever.
Given the apparent minor differences in settling on the W or E desert, I thought I would ask if this new "information" changes anyone's opinion on where to settle.
And, as you can see in the screenshot, we've met Joao. Who already has 2 cities.
Edit: Alternatively, the AI could prefer the W desert because it provides an additional grassland tile in the BFC. I think we might want to stick with the original settling plan.
Edit2: From what I can tell from the archive, the blue circle suggestions do indeed take into account tile yields, so it probably is the additional grass thatis motivating the suggestion. I'm playing on.
Here is your Session Turn Log from 2250 BC to 1950 BC:
Turn 71, 2225 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 74, 2150 BC: Orleans has been founded.
Turn 75, 2125 BC: The borders of Paris have expanded!
Turn 75, 2125 BC: Harkuf (Great Merchant) has been born in a far away land!
Turn 81, 1975 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 82, 1950 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 82, 1950 BC: Napoleon adopts Slavery!
Autolog:
Spoiler:
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------ Turn 70/750 (2250 BC) [16-Mar-2011 11:48:15] 100% Research: 15 per turn 0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank
After End Turn: Paris finishes: Settler
Turn 71/750 (2225 BC) [16-Mar-2011 11:48:16] Paris begins: The Oracle (29 turns) 100% Research: 15 per turn 0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank
After End Turn:
Other Player Actions: Hinduism founded in a distant land
Turn 72/750 (2200 BC) [16-Mar-2011 11:49:26] 100% Research: 15 per turn 0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank
Turn 73/750 (2175 BC) [16-Mar-2011 11:50:39] Player contact made: Joao II of Portugal
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------ Turn 73/750 (2175 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:37:09] 0% Research: 0 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 100% Gold: 15 per turn, 0 in the bank
Turn 74/750 (2150 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:37:09] Orleans founded Orleans begins: Lighthouse (45 turns) 100% Research: 20 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -2 per turn, 15 in the bank
Turn 75/750 (2125 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:39:17] 100% Research: 20 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -2 per turn, 13 in the bank
After End Turn: Paris's borders expand
Turn 76/750 (2100 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:40:45] 100% Research: 20 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -2 per turn, 11 in the bank
After End Turn: Paris grows to size 7
Turn 77/750 (2075 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:42:39] Paris begins: Work Boat (6 turns) 100% Research: 20 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -2 per turn, 9 in the bank
Turn 78/750 (2050 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:44:33] 100% Research: 20 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -2 per turn, 7 in the bank
Turn 79/750 (2025 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:46:57] 100% Research: 20 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -2 per turn, 5 in the bank
Turn 80/750 (2000 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:50:13] 100% Research: 20 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -2 per turn, 3 in the bank
Turn 81/750 (1975 BC) [16-Mar-2011 12:54:17] A Mine was built near Orleans 100% Research: 20 per turn 0% Espionage: 4 per turn 0% Gold: -2 per turn, 1 in the bank
After End Turn: Tech research finished: Bronze Working
Other Player Actions: Player contact made: Victoria of England
Highlights:
t72: Hinduism founded in a distant land.
t73: Met Joao's WB coming from the NE.
t76: Great Merchant born in far away land (product of GLH)
t77: Paris grew to size 7 and is now unhappy
t78: Joao founded Guimaraes
t82: BW done. Met Victoria's WB coming from the NE.
Edit: And I revolted to Slavery.
So... Do we have copper? Sort of:
The South:
Spoiler:
On a jungle tile?!
The North:
Spoiler:
The East:
Spoiler:
There is a large island not too far away with Gold and Stone our galley is currently exploring.
Diplomacy:
Spoiler:
Joao and Victoria are pleased with each other. We have no dilpomatic demerits to start with, at least. Victoria has 1 city, Joao has 3.
Tech situation:
Spoiler:
Espionage:
Spoiler:
We'll see Joao's demographics next turn.
Top 5 cities/wonders:
Spoiler:
Demographics:
Note: we are in anarchy this turn.
Spoiler:
Micro plan: Reducing the slider to 0% on t73 is listed as giving us 18 gpt. It actually gave us 15. Also, no tile assignments were listed for the new city, so I had it work the unimproved pigs, which was the highest yield food tile (3f). I created columns for city #2 builds and tiles on the spreadsheet.
I would keep the galley exploring the big island and then keep heading E. We should probably send the 2nd galley to explore the south. The jungle copper is a real annoyance, though.
Finally, I will note with some satisfaction that my opponent predictions are so far 2 for 2. (It's the little things).
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