SGOTM 13 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[Trystero]

Unless we settle ON the copper.

That might be the best option if we want the bonus for the Colossus. Researching IW would delay things too much.

 

[Benginal]

Unless we settle ON the copper.

Yeah. This is my first thought as well. I see more testing in our future. I was getting IW much later in trades (which it looks like we will be able to do, thank god). So we can either get copper to build the Colossus, but not be allowed to work that tile ever. Or we can work that tile later, but not get the copper bonus. I think the copper bonus is worth it, but I'm not sure.

Working the pigs was what I'd been doing as well.

HR might not be as necessary as I previously thought. I see fur and gold. And after we finish Colossus we can trade the copper for a butt load of good stuff (hopefully).

 

[neilmeister]

Math is good ! Please play !

Ok, personal note, I'm still a bit uncertain about the mechanics of whipping. Useless personal information : I played all the way up to emperor without ever using it. I didn't know the forum, and it just felt too evil. But going beyond monarch proved tough, I started reading the forum, and embraced the dark side.
Yet, a few things are still muddled. I mean it's fairly straightforward when you have a city with the production capacity of a paraplegic sloth but lots of food. Whip the lazy wankers and get stuff out.
But I'm more confused about the rest : the way you describe it starts to make sense.
I'm going to think aloud (a-written ?) and please correct me if I'm getting it wrong.
Case A : We build the work boat, then the oracle, production time add up one after the other.
Case B : We build the work boat, whip it after 1 turn, then go back to oracle, the overflow goes into the oracle and we don't lose any hammers nor production turns, except that the population is smaller to complete the oracle, and possibly smaller.
Case C (the correct way from what you seem to describe) : You build it till the last minute, then whip it. You still have the same overflow and no lost hammers, but you benefit from the work of the population that's going to get whipped longer.

Am I correct, or should I return to giving group hugs to my population and let the grownups whip ?

Thats a tough one. We are indeed doing case C, as this is the main point for whipping, get the WB and the overflow hammers. If early production of the WB was the most important, we would do B. When whipping, you nearly always want to maximise the overflow hammers. So, try to time whips so you lose 1, 2 or 3 pop, and get ~40 hammers.

In our case, we build a WB for 5 turns, then whip it and get 40 overflow. As we were getting 8hpt, then there is no difference from a hammer point of view.

Obviously, the unhappy citizen reduces the capactiy of the city, so whipping can be understood as bringing hammers forward.


@ Trystero: Looks good, meeting an AI before we have even explored is excellent. Ignore the blue circle.

edit: crosspost with the actual turnset, plus a few replies

 

[Trystero]

I think the mapmakers are deliberately forcing us to make strategic decisions: Most of the nearby resources (marble, copper) require less than ideal cities to grab them early.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

No rush for marble really.

 

[Trystero]

Unless we have close neighbors to the West, I suppose.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

On the copper seems OK to me - especially if we send a workboat with the galley to work the fish straight away.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Am I right to assume that you worked the corn, which led to too early unhappiness ?

Blue circles are for wimps. Real men ignore them.

When running the tests, I did settle on that island as my fourth or fifth city. The maintenance will hurt a bit, but 10 or 15 turns earlier of colossus is totally worth it in my book. I'm clearly for settling on it, and sacrificing the hammers. Then we'll backfill on the stone site, and the north of marble city. The gold and stone site looks mighty far to me...

With two AI already met, writing might take precedence over Animal Husbandry. We want open borders as quick as possible

 

[Trystero]

Am I right to assume that you worked the corn, which led to too early unhappiness ?

The micro plan called for working corn, 2 x clams, 2 x grass hill mines throughout the turnset. Was that incorrect?

I thought we wanted the unhappy citizens to whip into the WB. Sorry if I missed something. I thought the plan posted was up to date.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Sorry, I checked the micro and that's what was written. i think working the coast was (marginally) better, but I very well might be wrong.
The situation with the capital is such that we have to pay special attention to which tiles are worked, when writing the micro.

We need to run a quick test to know if we get that settler out and on a second galley before we start the colossus.

 

[Trystero]

OK - good, I'm glad I didn't blunder. (Can you tell I tend to be overly cautious in team games: "Oh my god! A blue circle! What do I do now?" Posting about things let's me talk my way through it. )

We do need to watch the micro plan, though. We really should have had explicit directions for the second city's builds/tiles. But, what to do seemed clear enough.

And yeah, that gold island is a ways away. We should really check the south and the east for other big islands. The north looks too close to the top of the map to bother.

 

[Benginal]

Alright. We can be a little more scrutinizing of the micro sheet. I just kind of looked it over and it seemed alright. . But some extra pop for whipping is fine since our current plan calls for a 3 pop Oracle whip. Not a huge deal I don't think.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

In other (slightly related) news

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/03...apted-to-crime-of-the-week-mystery-tv-series/

 

[neilmeister]

Ah, now I'm finally at work, at can have a read of whats happenned.

Excellent results, except for Copper. It would definitely be deliberate to put it under jungle. I admit I am very hesitant to settle on it when we have so few hammers, but it could be the best idea. I like the 2 clams & PH spot, there might even be another seafood resource!

Micro was correct We work the Corn & coast to maximise the pop (we have 2 whips to do), and to maximise the commerce. I played around with with this quite a bit.

If we focused on hammers, then we can 2 pop whip Oracle on t92, but we haven't finished Pottery.
If we focused on commerce, then we learn Pottery on t90, and can 3 pop whip Oracle on t91.
If we didn't work the corn, then we couldn't 3 pop whip the cap on t91.

Sorry I didn't write much about city 2, my apologies.

2 AI, thats great news.

edit: biggest annoyance, if we had gone Polytheism, we would have founded Hindu.

edit 2: I should say that I did not focus at all on the gpt, hpt or bpt for the updated micro. These columns were useful to decide the initial moves, but probably not so much now. My apologies for my laziness and the subsequent confusion.

 

[Trystero]

edit: biggest annoyance, if we had gone Polytheism, we would have founded Hindu.

It went really late. In my test games it was always founded around t25. And I'm not sure the risk would be worth delaying the Oracle by a couple of turns.

Also, I just realized that the Demo screen shows our position while we are in anarchy, since I revolted on the last turn. We'll have to wait to the next turn to get some idea about our GNP etc...

 

[neilmeister]

I agree, it made sense to go Meditation. Only with hindsight does it look like the wrong idea, 2 AI near us, without religions, and hindu within our grasp.

Demo screen can still tell us a bit:
- 1 civ only has 1 city, at pop 3. The wonders screen confirms that this is the holder of the GLH. Looks like they were nerfed
- We have the largest population

 

[neilmeister]

Sorry to spam the thread, but to respond to some of the other comments:

Open Borders:
hmmm, I wouldn't want to do it until we need it. All it will give us is to allow Joao's & Vicky's WB's to travel across our empire. It looks like our empire might even divide the map, as in it is the only way through before Caravels.

Tech Order:
I still think AH after Pottery is the best, it makes city 2 a pretty decent settler pump.
Then Writing, importantly, check the turn before we learn Writing, if the AI cannot open borders, then they do not have Writing, and we will beat them to Alpha. I suggest we decide at this point what to tech for next.

edit:

Finally, I will note with some satisfaction that my opponent predictions are so far 2 for 2. (It's the little things).

You didn't predict Monty or Toku I hope.

edit 2: Galleys exploring
The first galley's task is simply to meet as many of the AI as possible, so he should probably keep heading east. Next galley (built after Oracle), will not have lots to do (as the next settler will come from city 2, and does not need a boat), so it could even head west, via the marble. Depends on if we want to settle ON the copper.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I predicted Bismarck so bear that in mind when we are building our wonders.

 

[Trystero]

One other micro thing: In the micro plan, it calls for whipping the WB next turn. We have 40 of 45 hammers in the WB this turn, and are making 8 hpt, so we should whip the WB now (before we end the current turn), yes? The screenshots show 6 turns to complete the WB, but we are in revolt.

Sorry I noted this but forgot to mention it earlier.

Edit: but we aren't making any hammers this turn... nevermind.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

In revolt it assumes 1hpt. It's going to be a 1 pop whip if we whip it.