Trystero
Deity
Yeah, I caught that after I posted (of course!).
Edit: and checking the save, the game wouldn't allow us to whip anyway.
Edit: and checking the save, the game wouldn't allow us to whip anyway.
SGOTM 13 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Well you can always whip next turn... you just get the whip hammers as overflow but 1 pop whipping isn't cool.
Trystero
Deity
Yep, no whipping while in Anarchy.
Do you think I'm over-analyzing my play just a tad? Maybe?
I'll stop now.
Edit: And I agree that AH after Pottery makes sense, given the pigs.
1 pop whipping has its uses, like here.
Yes it means we still have an unhappy citizen, but we will whip him away pretty soon.
edit: over-analysis is better than under-analysis (if that is a word!)
Yes it means we still have an unhappy citizen, but we will whip him away pretty soon.
edit: over-analysis is better than under-analysis (if that is a word!)
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
1 pop whip isn't too bad if you go for a worker or settler next.
IIRC, the problem was that if we 2 pop whipped the WB (or monument), we did not grow back to pop 6 in time for the whip of Oracle.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Whipping wonders is penalised - can we not whip normal builds and use the overflow?
Thats a good point. We could put 1-2 turns into a monument and 2 pop whip it.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
You can't 2 pop whip monuments - they are too cheap.
EDIT: But hey I just remembered monuments give us +1 happy from cha trait - so whipping monuments is free.
EDIT: But hey I just remembered monuments give us +1 happy from cha trait - so whipping monuments is free.
Yes, I just discovered this.
But, we can 1 pop whip a monument on about t88, we still have to 3 pop whip Oracle, and we can do this on t92 at the earliest.
So, if we insert monument before Oracle, it costs us 1 turn.
I might try a galley, which we can 2 pop whip, but I doubt this will work well, as each whip reduces our working population (except monument)
But, we can 1 pop whip a monument on about t88, we still have to 3 pop whip Oracle, and we can do this on t92 at the earliest.
So, if we insert monument before Oracle, it costs us 1 turn.
I might try a galley, which we can 2 pop whip, but I doubt this will work well, as each whip reduces our working population (except monument)
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Looks like we are too late then unless we want to risk it.
Remember we can 1 pop whip monuments in future with hardly any penalty.
Remember we can 1 pop whip monuments in future with hardly any penalty.
I never whip wonders, always preferring to whip workers and settlers into wonders.
BUT in this case I think we decided not to do this. Usually the slightly slower time to the wonder is compensated for by the extra worker or settler. In this case, though, we really need to NOT lose the Oracle. So even though whipping is less optimal in terms of pop and hammers, it is better for speed.
BUT in this case I think we decided not to do this. Usually the slightly slower time to the wonder is compensated for by the extra worker or settler. In this case, though, we really need to NOT lose the Oracle. So even though whipping is less optimal in terms of pop and hammers, it is better for speed.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Yeah I agree. Whip the wonder but give yourselves a spanking for considering it (and I spank myself for not picking up on it earlier).
Who's up next?
Alamankarazieff
Warlord
But Trystero haven't finished his run have he ? Is it already my turn to blunder everything and let you all down ?
Trystero
Deity
Oh, I'm done (I played about 20 turns total, until BW). So, yes, it's all up to you. 
We need to finalize plans about what to do next (apart from Oracle building). Where to put the next city, for example. I need to do some playtesting, but my current thinking is that either the spot 1N of the stone (doesn't need a galley if we build the settler in Orleans and can borrow the mine from Paris), or the PH/2 x clams island. It really depends on how soon we need the copper, and what resources are S of the copper. That copper site really has not much going for it, other than the copper, as the next city. It's completely covered with jungle, which means we can't do anything but work the fish until we have IW.
I think the current micro plan calls for another galley soon after The Oracle. We could really use some more scouting of our local vicinity. I'd advocate putting a city at one of the other spots before the copper, but perhaps it's too risky not to go for the Colossus sooner.
Edit: Also, I was looking at the demographics, and it's pretty clear we have a pretty bad start compared to the AIs. Our land area is 10,000 and our rival's worst is 20,000. You get 1,000 km^2/tile so the worst AI has 20 land tiles compared to our 10. We know Victoria has only 1 city and 2 border pops, so her capital could have 37 land tiles max in her culture, so she is likely the closest rival in land area. I don't know why she wouldn't have a 2nd city yet, if she has 20 land tiles, unless she's hemmed in by mountains, or some of her land is on neighboring islands.
Edit2: Does anybody know or have a handy link to the worker improvement times on Epic speed? I know mining the hill at Orleans took longer than in the micro plan, and I'm not sure if that was a game speed mistake, or whether desert (and tundra) hills take longer to mine.
Edit3: The more I think about it, the better the site 1N of the stone looks. It can not only borrow the GH mine from Paris, but also the desert hill mine from Orleans. Even with the fish as it's only food, it could work the stone, 2 GH mines, and the DH mine at size 5. This yields 13hpt making it our best production site (assuming we mine the stone before Masonry). The problem being that it would only have 10 food, so it would stagnate growth. Still, the trade off might be worth it for the production.
We need to finalize plans about what to do next (apart from Oracle building). Where to put the next city, for example. I need to do some playtesting, but my current thinking is that either the spot 1N of the stone (doesn't need a galley if we build the settler in Orleans and can borrow the mine from Paris), or the PH/2 x clams island. It really depends on how soon we need the copper, and what resources are S of the copper. That copper site really has not much going for it, other than the copper, as the next city. It's completely covered with jungle, which means we can't do anything but work the fish until we have IW.
I think the current micro plan calls for another galley soon after The Oracle. We could really use some more scouting of our local vicinity. I'd advocate putting a city at one of the other spots before the copper, but perhaps it's too risky not to go for the Colossus sooner.
Edit: Also, I was looking at the demographics, and it's pretty clear we have a pretty bad start compared to the AIs. Our land area is 10,000 and our rival's worst is 20,000. You get 1,000 km^2/tile so the worst AI has 20 land tiles compared to our 10. We know Victoria has only 1 city and 2 border pops, so her capital could have 37 land tiles max in her culture, so she is likely the closest rival in land area. I don't know why she wouldn't have a 2nd city yet, if she has 20 land tiles, unless she's hemmed in by mountains, or some of her land is on neighboring islands.
Edit2: Does anybody know or have a handy link to the worker improvement times on Epic speed? I know mining the hill at Orleans took longer than in the micro plan, and I'm not sure if that was a game speed mistake, or whether desert (and tundra) hills take longer to mine.
Edit3: The more I think about it, the better the site 1N of the stone looks. It can not only borrow the GH mine from Paris, but also the desert hill mine from Orleans. Even with the fish as it's only food, it could work the stone, 2 GH mines, and the DH mine at size 5. This yields 13hpt making it our best production site (assuming we mine the stone before Masonry). The problem being that it would only have 10 food, so it would stagnate growth. Still, the trade off might be worth it for the production.
I'm thinking the 2 x clams & PH site looks nicest. Plenty of food, with decent production, and it is in the direction of the 2 known AI. It will get going fastest. NW of copper is a site that can share the 2 fish, with a monument, so could be very nice, once we have IW. N of stone also looks attractive, but if it only becomes good by borrowing 2 tiles, then maybe prioritising cities with food is best.
As for copper, I think we will just have to live without it for now. When the trade-fest occurs, we can safely trade MC for IW.... as long as we have finished the forge and have some hammers in Colossus. The forge is an excellent blocker, as it ensures we will have a big head start.
I think a galley after Oracle makes the most sense, we will need it.
@ epic worker speed - sorry, again my fault. I didn't check how long it took, as I didn't think it mattered.
As for copper, I think we will just have to live without it for now. When the trade-fest occurs, we can safely trade MC for IW.... as long as we have finished the forge and have some hammers in Colossus. The forge is an excellent blocker, as it ensures we will have a big head start.
I think a galley after Oracle makes the most sense, we will need it.
@ epic worker speed - sorry, again my fault. I didn't check how long it took, as I didn't think it mattered.
Trystero
Deity
Normally I would agree, but I was looking at that site in more strategic terms. I would propose borrowing both tiles for two builds: the forge and The Colossus. Borrowing hills would make it the best hammer site we have. After the forge it would yield 13*125% = 16.25 or 17 hpt. The Colossus (375h on Epic?) would take 22 turns without copper. Compare that to the capital, which yields 9 hpt at best, 12 with a forge, and would take 32 turns to build the Colossus without copper. This would also allow the capital to continue to build settlers/workers/whatever while we build the Colossus. Granted I haven't playtested this yet to work out the timing, so I'm just thinking out loud at the moment. (I haven't figured in the effect of running an engineer specialist, either. I can't remember the hammers that yields. Or considered the effects of whipping.) I will have to look at the 2 x clams site more carefully. More food is always better.
I will wait until we see the rest of that island, but yes, I agree. Putting a city on the copper would not give us much more than the copper itself. It also depends on whether an AI might grab that spot as well. If that's our only source of metal...
WRT timing the Colossus: yeah, if we can keep a MC monopoly, we should be in good shape. I am becoming more inclined to follow Alaman's suggestion for Alphabet after Writing, rather than Monarchy. Especially if we go to Currency after that. Commerce is going to be limiting at the start (unless we get the Colossus), since there are few tiles to cottage. Alphabet/Currency would give us more trading options, more trade routes, and allow us to build wealth in junk cities if we run out of worthwhile builds.
No worries I wasn't worried about the micro so much as trying to figure out the speed modifier. Epic increases all costs (hammers, improvements, research) by 150%, is that right?
