SGOTM 13 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[Trystero]

Are the two galleys piled on each other ? If that's so, that sucks mightily. If we let the trireme be attacked twice, we're almost sure to lose it.

Yes, the barb galleys are stacked. As Brian pointed out there isn't anything we can do about it since the trireme is out of moves at this point. We just have to hope for the best.

I looked into Paris builds a little more. I think, given the gold, we should build a forge in Paris soon. We will get an additional +1 from the forge if we settle the gold city and mine the gold. This would increase Paris' cap from 6 to 8 (it is at 5 now, but has 48 turns of ). We could build the forge in 20 turns (this doesn't include a possible whip) at size 4 if we work the 2 GH and the forest (9 hpt base). With the forge we would get 12 hpt. If we built Moai next with the stone connected we would get 24 hpt toward that build, and could finish Moai in 16 turns (again without the whip).

If we had Moai and a forge and grew to the happy cap at size 8, we could work 2 GH, forest, and 5 coastal tiles for 14 hpt * 125% (forge) = 18 hpt in Paris. The Colossus (375h) would take 21 turns without the copper connected, and 11 with the copper. Again whipping would shorten the build times, but I'm not sure how to calculate that adjustment.

Edit: For completeness, if we built the Colossus after the forge in Paris (12 hpt, without Moai), it would take 32 turns with out copper, and 16 turns with the copper.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

If we're building the Colossus we need a forge anyway, as it's a prereq.

 

[Trystero]

If we're building the Colossus we need a forge anyway, as it's a prereq.

Yeah, I understood that. I should have been clearer in my conclusions. My analysis was to determine if we should build the Moai before the Colossus, in what order we should build the forge and the Moai, and what effect hooking up copper had.

I think it's best we build the forge in Paris before the Moai, then decide if we want to hook up copper or build the Moai. If we want the Colossus fast, the copper city would be less hammers than the Moai. But we would want the Moai in Paris eventually, so it might be better to build the Moai before the Colossus.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Forge should go next into Paris. It'll help on anything we build.

If we are building Maoi I's say definitely settle the copper site. Even if it does nothing else for us, getting the boost for the Colossus will pay for the site. We could try and get the settler out of another site while building the Maoi in Paris.

 

[Trystero]

I think Orleans should build settlers and workers. It has a lot of food, but few hammers.

Edit: If the galley heading to the gold city is going to continue West, we will also need another galley to ferry a worker to that island, or we could build one there, I suppose.

 

[Benginal]

H'okay, so here iz ze earth.

Turn 116

• Assuming trireme wins, send the galley with settler over to western island. If it loses see what the odds are on our settler galley to defeat the barb galley. If it does lose I will pause the game, post here, and wait for feedback.
• Stop worker on stone mine, since we'll build a quarry.
• Open borders with Victoire.

Paris
Paris is in a pretty poor way in terms of growth. I'm going to favor having paris take the hill back from Lyons and build the workboat -> forge -> Colossus. I'll keep the whip in off mode.

Lyon
Will limp along working the quarry while building Monument, Granary, Lighthouse.

Orleans
Should have gotten a granary before lighthouse. Not sure how we let that one happen. Granary before lighthouse always except in the case of one-tile island with all water and no fish resources, only then is lighthouse first better. Or if you're the Vikings I suppose and want to get some of those awesome galleys. Anyway, I would have preferred to grow to size 5 and work the pigs, fish, mine, and two scientists. But I'm not sure we have the time and maybe it should just screw buildings and get right on grow to 4, 2 pop whip settler into galley, build galley while growing to 4, 2 pop whip settler, etc.

Great People
I'll get the forge up in Paris and run an engineer right away. We can pray for a great engineer who can then pyramids, moai, mining inc (jk), be settled, or possible other options.

Techs
Oh right. So I wanted Monarchy for warrior garrison spam. My vote is Monarchy -> Alphabet -> Currency. But if we want to go straight for alphabet and hope to trade for monarchy i'll do that. Or if we don't want to be in HR confused then I suppose monarchy is worthless.

New Cities
I want more information if we can get it. City 5 I have no idea about. If the trireme wins I'd want to send it exploring and gamble on the clams staying safe. It's not like we can grow Paris anyway. We can then decide about the copper city later as hopefully we'll know if settling on it is a good or bad idea.

Explorin Galley
I'll just keep this sucker going east.

Playing
I'm all ready to go I think. Does anybody vote for worldbuilder testing? Either way, let's get some input about stuff. I trust myself to have decent micro. I'll be careful and whatnot. But:

1. Monarchy or Alphabet
2. Settler/worker right away in Orleans or Granary/Library first? What are our priorities? Do we want a Library? We should only grow so much before getting the Colossus. So I'm in no hurry to rex settlers. And I want a scientist for an A-M academy asap after the engineer from A-M.

Oh yeah: Official Got It!

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I think the game has stalled too long to be worried about micro tests. I'd say go with it.

I'd also go with monarchy before anything else. HR happiness will be nice at this stage.

As regards Orleans use your best judgement. I'd like to be able to rex now but, aside from settling on copper to hurry the Colossus I can see nothing to settle in our immediate areas (lots of places to explore though).

 

[Benginal]

I think the game has stalled too long to be worried about micro tests. I'd say go with it.

. I agree. I'll wait until tomorrow night to play, that ~8:00pm Eastern Daylight(?) Time. I have no idea which it is now. It's 8:00pm the same time as it is 8:00pm in NYC, you figure it out.

I'd also go with monarchy before anything else. HR happiness will be nice at this stage.

That's an official 2-0 for Monarchy. But I do remember dissenters, .

As regards Orleans use your best judgement. I'd like to be able to rex now but, aside from settling on copper to hurry the Colossus I can see nothing to settle in our immediate areas (lots of places to explore though).

Yeah. There's no OMG i want that spot, except the gold and tripe seafood we're already going to. The cities will take too long to be useful at this point to be worth settling at a net loss. I'll try to grow the cities on warriors until Colossus is in and then we can whip/build a settling force.

I will also put out another trireme or two to figure out where the other AIs are and try to get a more complete picture of our surrounding land.

 

[drlake]

While we definitely want both Monarchy and Alphabet, I generally trade for both rather than research them since both are pretty high on the AI research priority list, and hence have lower trade value than other techs. However, we're slow enough getting off the mark that it isn't worth debating the issue at this point.

The plan seems fine to me. I think we might have screwed ourselves by stacking so much whip unhappiness, but we'll see how it turns out.

 

[Benginal]

Stay Chipper

It's true that we're moving along pretty slowly. But it seems that everybody else is too. So no worries. .

While we definitely want both Monarchy and Alphabet, I generally trade for both rather than research them since both are pretty high on the AI research priority list, and hence have lower trade value than other techs. However, we're slow enough getting off the mark that it isn't worth debating the issue at this point.

I'm not sure what level you usually play at. But I'm not counting on the emperor AIs getting us Monarchy which we really desperately need. I'd rather get it ourselves and milk it. Heck, we might even be able to trade it to the AI for ironworking and hold on to Alphabet for ourselves a little bit longer.

The plan seems fine to me. I think we might have screwed ourselves by stacking so much whip unhappiness, but we'll see how it turns out.

Yeah. We definitely whipped a lot, but we've got 4 cities now and a trireme! Also, warriors for happiness are on the way as is gold. So stay calm. 43 epic turns of whip anger is nothing. I can't believe you guys are telling me to use my best judgment! You're gonna see some whip action. I'll be whipping monument/granary/lighthouse/library in that order. And also whipping galleys/worker(s)/settlers. Then once basic infrastructure is in and I feel like we have a good number of cities we'll grow really nice and big!

Actually I feel myself getting kind of ambitious. How many turns should I play assuming no really bad or really good developments? I'm thinking ~30 as that seems standard at this point?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Yeah. We definitely whipped a lot, but we've got 4 cities now and a trireme! Also, warriors for happiness are on the way as is gold. So stay calm. 43 epic turns of whip anger is nothing. I can't believe you guys are telling me to use my best judgment! You're gonna see some whip action. I'll be whipping monument/granary/lighthouse/library in that order. And also whipping galleys/worker(s)/settlers. Then once basic infrastructure is in and I feel like we have a good number of cities we'll grow really nice and big!

Personally, I recently learned to Stop worrying and love the whip. I got some great use out of the whip in PCSG2, when gearing up for war.

 

[drlake]

I usually play at Emperor, Benginal, though lately I've been playing mods that are quite different (e.g. FFH2) and have stepped down a bit as a result. I do sometimes have to self-research Alpha since no one gets around to it, but I tend to go for Aes as trade bait and backfill using that. Anyway, doesn't matter for this game.

I find it interesting that no one else seems bothered by our capital hitting the happy cap at pop 3 for 43 more turns, if I recall correctly. That seems like a rather large handicap to me, but I'm interested in watching how it works out.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

Yay, I just had a go at Immortal for the first time, and won. I feel totally confident to boss people around on this forum now.

Lighthouse before granary happened because we didn't have pottery yet... I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's why.

Emperor AI will get monarchy quickly believe you me. Yet, I'd be more willing to gamble on a great engineer and Pyramid us into HR rather than researching it. It did work in my test game, but there is a definite luck element there.

I think currency beeline is essential, especially on a sea map like that. In my test game,
so neither alphabet nor monarchy for me.
I started spawning settlers in Orleans after the library was online and it worked well.

As for whip happiness, it goes away, so that's why I don't worry so much.

All this being said, I seriously apologize for not seeing that the two galleys joined a pile. I stupidly assumed the second one went on to bugger someone else. I would have played it differently...

I played 20 turns, so did Trystero.

 

[Benginal]

I usually play at Emperor, Benginal, though lately I've been playing mods that are quite different (e.g. FFH2) and have stepped down a bit as a result. I do sometimes have to self-research Alpha since no one gets around to it, but I tend to go for Aes as trade bait and backfill using that. Anyway, doesn't matter for this game.

That is a pretty tried and true strategy. I like it myself. And we know enough AIs that it might be superior. We could settle on the marble and go for Aesthetics -> Lit. We could then trade for IW, Monarchy, and Alpha while building the Parthenon and the Great Library. Anybody? I think heavy specialists kind of runs opposite the idea of working a lot of colossus tiles, but both strategies are definitely viable.

I find it interesting that no one else seems bothered by our capital hitting the happy cap at pop 3 for 43 more turns, if I recall correctly. That seems like a rather large handicap to me, but I'm interested in watching how it works out.

On epic, one whip anger lasts for 15 turns. So it will go down to 2 unhappiness in 13 turns, 1 unhappiness in 28 turns, and completely away in 43 turns. And as I said earlier we'll be getting gold quite soon which, once we have the forge, will be two happy. And if we decide to go for Monarchy we will also get some easy warrior happiness.

Yay, I just had a go at Immortal for the first time, and won. I feel totally confident to boss people around on this forum now.

Yay! Congratulations.

Lighthouse before granary happened because we didn't have pottery yet... I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's why.

Ah. In that case.

Emperor AI will get monarchy quickly believe you me. Yet, I'd be more willing to gamble on a great engineer and Pyramid us into HR rather than researching it. It did work in my test game, but there is a definite luck element there.

Hmm. I'm not willing to gamble on the AI having it. But if we gamble on the AI having it or getting the pyramids I think our odds improve to the point where it might be fun to try. We can go right for alphabet and then trade for monarchy if we don't get a GE in paris. I'm worried the GE might take too long to come though.

Let's see. If we take back the mine in Paris we get the boat out in ~5 turns. Forge in ~13 turns. At that point we can start running an engineer and it will take ~30 turns from right now to pop a great person with a ~30% chance of being an engineer. That makes it sound a little worse...

This is assuming no whipping though. Also, there are tildas in front of everything for a reason.

I think currency beeline is essential, especially on a sea map like that so neither alphabet nor monarchy for me.

More guesstimation coming up. If we get currency we get an extra 3 commerce per city if we get all foreign trade routes, should be fine. That gives an extra 15/18 for the empire. Or we could go for early monarchy and grow our cities (capital) on to more 3 commerce tiles. And then get the trade routes a few turns later. I think maybe it comes out in the wash?? Especially since we will definitely be able to trade currency for monarchy...

In my test game,I started spawning settlers in Orleans after the library was online and it worked well.

Yeah. It's certainly workable. But bigger cities early are generally better. And I'm worried if we expand too quickly we'll cripple our tech rate. Hopefully, exploration will show us how much land we have and how much we should freak out about rexing.

I played 20 turns, so did Trystero.

Alright. I'll do that then.

Conclusion: I am now more unsure of what I should do tomorrow night then I was a few hours ago. Possible paths include

alpha -> currency -> code of laws
code of laws -> alpha (trade) -> currency
aesthetics -> alpha (trade) -> lit -> currency
monarchy -> alpha (trade) -> currency

and like a bazillion combinations of those with their respective fast growth / trade potential / religion founding / wonder building advantages. Let's make some decision people!

Question: If we go for Code of Laws we could do a funsies rep+parthenon+caste+glib strategy. Totally different than what we've been considering. Tee hee.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Well if we are going to whip heavily for the wonders I think HR has to figure in there somewhere. So even if we don't go for it we'll have to trade for it pretty sharpish IMO.

We have to think long-term here too, and I'm trying to wonder what'll give us the best shot at a quick Dom/Conq win. We don't really need to spread out all over the tech tree, but we need the research power to go for the techs we need (IMO Astro, steel and maybe rifling before anybody else gets there). I'm not too sure I know what will get us this right now. Personally I'm a big fan of the Aesth>Lit route (GLib is usually my first wonder) and then onto CS and a Lib swing of Astro or Steel if I can pull Steel off. But here we're whipping heavily at the moment and Monarchy gives us the ability to do that (until we run out of money from maintenance). I'm kind of torn.

Maybe alpha>curr>Aesth>lit and trading one for Monarchy asap?

 

[Benginal]

Well if we are going to whip heavily for the wonders I think HR has to figure in there somewhere. So even if we don't go for it we'll have to trade for it pretty sharpish IMO.

For certain!

We have to think long-term here too, and I'm trying to wonder what'll give us the best shot at a quick Dom/Conq win. We don't really need to spread out all over the tech tree, but we need the research power to go for the techs we need (IMO Astro, steel and maybe rifling before anybody else gets there). I'm not too sure I know what will get us this right now. Personally I'm a big fan of the Aesth>Lit route (GLib is usually my first wonder) and then onto CS and a Lib swing of Astro or Steel if I can pull Steel off. But here we're whipping heavily at the moment and Monarchy gives us the ability to do that (until we run out of money from maintenance). I'm kind of torn.

I follow this same tech path in many of my offline games. But I think here, Aesth and lit can both be dropped. Not that we should drop them. I think the general idea is that we get these two and trade for the other techs AIs are more likely to go for. So we got all of these techs + aesth and lit. But I'm just worried about relying on the AI too much when we are in such desperate need of Monarchy.

Maybe alpha>curr>Aesth>lit and trading one for Monarchy asap?

And remember that if once we get a head start on the Colossus Metal Casting becomes a super trade chip.

 

[Trystero]

I'm going to agree with Brian in that the overriding concern should be what tech path is going to get us to what we need for Dom/Con (i.e. Astro and Steel)?

Normally the GLib is a huge help at this point in winning the Liberalism race. My concern with the Aes > Lit path here however is where we are going to get the hammers to build all those wonders? Recall we've already committed significant research to get the Colossus. So, I would ask myself how do we maximize the advantages of the Colossus. The answer is obviously working lots of water tiles, which means getting our happy cap up. Whipping to compensate for our poor production would also benefit from a bigger happy cap. And working lots of water tiles would go well with the plan to build Moai.

So I would argue that Monarchy/HR has to be a priority. I don't think using a GE for Pyramids is going to be a viable alternative. Rather I would argue we try for a GE to use on the GLib.

I am not certain what tech path I am actually arguing for here, other than "Monarchy soon". If Aes yields Alpha and Monarchy in trade we would be in a great position, obviously. My problem with putting Alpha > Currency off for too long is that I don't think we'll be able to build the Colossus soon enough (and grow big enough cities) to impact our short term research, so that Currency trade routes might have more immediate effects. And I still think getting Confucianism from CoL makes pursuing that soon worthwhile.

Sorry if this isn't actually helpful. I think I going to sleep on it and see if I can be more insightful in the morning.

 

[drlake]

I'm going to agree with Brian in that the overriding concern should be what tech path is going to get us to what we need for Dom/Con (i.e. Astro and Steel)?

Normally the GLib is a huge help at this point in winning the Liberalism race. My concern with the Aes > Lit path here however is where we are going to get the hammers to build all those wonders? Recall we've already committed significant research to get the Colossus. So, I would ask myself how do we maximize the advantages of the Colossus. The answer is obviously working lots of water tiles, which means getting our happy cap up. Whipping to compensate for our poor production would also benefit from a bigger happy cap. And working lots of water tiles would go well with the plan to build Moai.

So I would argue that Monarchy/HR has to be a priority. I don't think using a GE for Pyramids is going to be a viable alternative. Rather I would argue we try for a GE to use on the GLib.

I am not certain what tech path I am actually arguing for here, other than "Monarchy soon". If Aes yields Alpha and Monarchy in trade we would be in a great position, obviously. My problem with putting Alpha > Currency off for too long is that I don't think we'll be able to build the Colossus soon enough (and grow big enough cities) to impact our short term research, so that Currency trade routes might have more immediate effects. And I still think getting Confucianism from CoL makes pursuing that soon worthwhile.

Sorry if this isn't actually helpful. I think I going to sleep on it and see if I can be more insightful in the morning.

Sounds like a plan. I'm reading this at 4am due to insomnia, and I have no idea what you are ultimately recommending!

 

[neilmeister]

Firstly, I must apologise to the team. Sorry that I have not been involved more proactively.

I admit I got a bit upset about the unilateral decisions made re: build order & whipping and had (if I am honest with myself) a bit of a sulk. But that does not matter, at all, again my apologies.

I haven't looked at the current save yet. Can I ask that before anything else happens, please give me a day to study it, not just because I am a high-maintenance prima-donna who thinks he knows best (I am ashamed to say that this is partially true) but because I honestly want to get back into the game.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

I haven't looked at the current save yet. Can I ask that before anything else happens, please give me a day to study it, not just because I am a high-maintenance prima-donna who thinks he knows best (I am ashamed to say that this is partially true) but because I honestly want to get back into the game.

No worries, you can't help being Australian. And not to worry on the break either, sometimes we need a break away if we're getting too involved.