SGOTM 13 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

I'm going to agree with Brian in that the overriding concern should be what tech path is going to get us to what we need for Dom/Con (i.e. Astro and Steel)?

Yes of course. We have a goal laid out nicely for us so we don't even have to worry about picking a VC. I'm not sure steel is a priority since cannons can't attack from boats, but we'll wait and see what enemy territory looks like.

Normally the GLib is a huge help at this point in winning the Liberalism race. My concern with the Aes > Lit path here however is where we are going to get the hammers to build all those wonders? Recall we've already committed significant research to get the Colossus. So, I would ask myself how do we maximize the advantages of the Colossus. The answer is obviously working lots of water tiles, which means getting our happy cap up. Whipping to compensate for our poor production would also benefit from a bigger happy cap. And working lots of water tiles would go well with the plan to build Moai.

Yeah, hammers are at a premium. We've already kind of decided that Colossus + water tiles + big cities is our strategy, we may as well stick to it.

So I would argue that Monarchy/HR has to be a priority. I don't think using a GE for Pyramids is going to be a viable alternative.

Agreed. We've whipped to heavily to not get happy going immediately.

Rather I would argue we try for a GE to use on the GLib.

This is actually a really nice idea. I'll run an engineer in the capital and if we get that GE at 30% odds we'll have something nice to do with him!

I am not certain what tech path I am actually arguing for here, other than "Monarchy soon". If Aes yields Alpha and Monarchy in trade we would be in a great position, obviously.

True. But the risk the other AIs don't have alphabet and/or monarchy worries me.

My problem with putting Alpha > Currency off for too long is that I don't think we'll be able to build the Colossus soon enough (and grow big enough cities) to impact our short term research, so that Currency trade routes might have more immediate effects.

I think only by a little bit. Remember that monarchy will still let us grow big and coastal tiles still have 2 commerce so it's not like they're totally useless without colossus. Currency is obviously an important tech, but I think growth for working tiles and WHIPPING is more important than extra trade routes.

And I still think getting Confucianism from CoL makes pursuing that soon worthwhile.

I'm unconvinced. But I am curious where all the religions are.

Sounds like a plan. I'm reading this at 4am due to insomnia, and I have no idea what you are ultimately recommending! :)

:goodjob:

Firstly, I must apologise to the team. Sorry that I have not been involved more proactively.

Don't worry about. We've all been busy. In other words, I'm glad you guys have not been involved more proactively otherwise I'd feel guilty, ;).

I haven't looked at the current save yet. Can I ask that before anything else happens, please give me a day to study it, not just because I am a high-maintenance prima-donna who thinks he knows best (I am ashamed to say that this is partially true) but because I honestly want to get back into the game.

Of course. I'm much more available then I have been. So I will move the play of the next 20 turns to tomorrow ~9:00 NYC time.


My Current Tech Path

1. Monarchy: Of the utmost importance. We can't rely on AIs having it available to trade. We need it ASAP so it must come first.

Yup, I tried to pick a number 2 and couldn't. I think I will play up to the end of Monarchy and see some things that will aid in our decision.
  • Who has religions?
  • Who has alphabet?
 
I'm really sorry if I caused the sulk, but I didn't have a very clear mandate (or if I had, I missed it.)
If you're all that keen on monarchy first, let's go with it, but on emperor, the AI is DEFINITELY going to research it quick.
On archipelagos map, with quite a few cities, currency is a massive boost, not a tiny one. Thus said, I don't see it as currency or colossus. I think we need the maximum commerce we can get, to fuel rexing and conquest.
I think going towards rifle seems a great idea, and possible cavalries (in which case liberalism on rifling or military tradition can be done too.)
 
I'm really sorry if I caused the sulk, but I didn't have a very clear mandate (or if I had, I missed it.)

In the grand scheme of things we don't stand a chance against PD and OSS anyway. In the petit(e) (is this the correct antonym to grand? also I'm not sure if scheme is masc or fem or if it's even french ...) scheme of things whipping in the capital is probably fine. Masonry was silly, but you're correct in saying there was no team consensus on what to do. Either way, what's done is done and we might even be able to trade for something useful, masonry+monarchy for alphabet perhaps.

If you're all that keen on monarchy first, let's go with it, but on emperor, the AI is DEFINITELY going to research it quick.

Definitely in all caps is too strong. I've been annoyed with the AIs not researching it before in my life. The worst case scenario if we do research it is that by the time we have it and alphabet all the AIs will have monarchy already. The worst case scenario if we don't research it is we get alphabet, nobody has monarchy, and then we have to tech it ourselves and waste 20 turns on not being able to grow on warriors.

On archipelagos map, with quite a few cities, currency is a massive boost, not a tiny one. Thus said, I don't see it as currency or colossus. I think we need the maximum commerce we can get, to fuel rexing and conquest.

In ~40 (not used to epic) turns we better have both the Colossus AND Currency so conquest should not be a problem. In the short term Monarchy has a better return on investment since we can grow and then keep growing. Especially given the sad (PUN INTENDED) state of our capital, we need some happy right away, the trade routes can wait a few dozen turns.
 
I'm really sorry if I caused the sulk, but I didn't have a very clear mandate (or if I had, I missed it.)

You are completely right, the game had stalled.

I just need to harden up. :)
 
Sounds like a plan. I'm reading this at 4am due to insomnia, and I have no idea what you are ultimately recommending! :)

Unfortunately, my thinking isn't any clearer tonight, so no comments on the tech path from indecisive me. :p

In the grand scheme of things we don't stand a chance against PD and OSS anyway.

Hey now! Is that any way for a dwarf to talk?

Masonry was silly, but you're correct in saying there was no team consensus on what to do. Either way, what's done is done and we might even be able to trade for something useful, masonry+monarchy for alphabet perhaps.

I think this was our only really questionable move so far. I was also reconsidering my earlier suggestion that we switch the stone from a mine to a quarry after Masonry finishes next turn. If we aren't going to build Moai right away (we are going to want the forge in Paris first, I believe), I (now) think we should go ahead and finish the mine next turn so that we can apply the extra hammer to building a monument in Lyons.

I'm also going to reiterate my vote for changing the build in Orleans from a library to a settler or worker.
 
It woud be be petit or petite, but scheme is not french indeed.
Couple of things about this whole masonry business. It was quite possibly silly, but, since we have it, let's make the best of it.
First : please do not stop the mine ! Finish it, then transform it into a quarry, it's not like the worker turns are super precious right now, and this way, we get both the mine and the quarry bonus without any hammer interruption.
And also, since we do have stone, what do you think of putting one of our horsehockey upcoming cities on the pyramids ? Maybe the copper city or the beaver city ? If we ever get them, it's always good, and most likely, it's a investment in fail gold. With the appropriate ressource, it's twice as much hammers than normal wealth production.
 
It woud be be petit or petite, but scheme is not french indeed.
Couple of things about this whole masonry business. It was quite possibly silly, but, since we have it, let's make the best of it.
First : please do not stop the mine ! Finish it, then transform it into a quarry, it's not like the worker turns are super precious right now, and this way, we get both the mine and the quarry bonus without any hammer interruption.
And also, since we do have stone, what do you think of putting one of our horsehockey upcoming cities on the pyramids ? Maybe the copper city or the beaver city ? If we ever get them, it's always good, and most likely, it's a investment in fail gold. With the appropriate ressource, it's twice as much hammers than normal wealth production.

Both good points, I concur.
 
Both good points, I concur.

Yes, I double concur.

Also, I have another pull for Alphabet. If we go alphabet first, it's possible we can trade for BOTH monarchy and IW, especially if we meet some more AIs.
Whereas if we go monarchy first, no IW = no copper for us. Just some more food for thought, :crazyeye:.

Key Issues

1. Tech Path
2. What to do with Orleans
 
Also, I have another pull for Alphabet. If we go alphabet first, it's possible we can trade for BOTH monarchy and IW, especially if we meet some more AIs. Whereas if we go monarchy first, no IW = no copper for us. Just some more food for thought, :crazyeye:.

Alphabet > Currency is what I have been favoring as well. My only hesitation was whether to try the possible Aesthetics gambit, or whether our happiness situation dictated Monarchy first.

I think Alphabet next is the safest move. We'll get +1 :) from the gold (and another :) if we have a forge) in the short term to deal with :mad:.

2. What to do with Orleans

It has food but no hammers = settler/worker pump.
 
Alphabet > Currency is what I have been favoring as well. My only hesitation was whether to try the possible Aesthetics gambit, or whether our happiness situation dictated Monarchy first. I think Alphabet next is the safest move. We'll get +1 :) from the gold (and another :) if we have a forge) in the short term to deal with :mad:.

I think I'm tending to agree. I'll go alphabet in the real game and hopefully we can trade for Monarch and IW, if not then we can discuss if we should go Currency or Monarchy next. I think Aesthetics is not as good a play as it could take a while for the AI to get Alphabet and we don't really want the wonders that much. Code of Laws I also think would be a fun aside, but it's not vital and we don't have the production to build courthouses.

It has food but no hammers = settler/worker pump.

The other option is grow while building buildings/galleys and then whip out settlers. Going pure *settler + *worker is very prince level stuff, especially at size 2 with food as good as we have. So I'm going to ask that we try and rank the marginal benefits of each of these items.

Library, Monument, Granary for the city
fifth city, sixth city, second worker, third worker for the empire
second galley, third galley, second trireme for the empire.

Obviously some of it will depend on if our trireme wins or not. But I want the city to get some infrastructure in place. I'd recommend something like this grow to size 4 on granary, 2-pop whip settler, finish granary and start on library while growing to size 4 again, 2-pop whip library, grow to size 6 while building galley. Two/Three pop whip settler. This way we can go back and forth between pigs+fish+2 scientists+mine+coast and pigs+fish+scientist. It will take long enough to get to the final size 6 to 4/3 equilibrium that we'll have monarchy and enough warriors that happiness won't be a problem.

I like this set-up because we aren't in dire need of cities since we already have four. Come the Colossus we can go heavy on the settlers building them in all four of our cities.
 
Alphabet > Currency is what I have been favoring as well. My only hesitation was whether to try the possible Aesthetics gambit, or whether our happiness situation dictated Monarchy first.

I think Alphabet next is the safest move. We'll get +1 :) from the gold (and another :) if we have a forge) in the short term to deal with :mad:.

:agree:

Alpha > Currency is optimal. Alpha for obvious reasons, and Currency is so overpowered on a watery map, where every trade route is worth a minimum of 2C.

Library, Monument, Granary for the city
fifth city, sixth city, second worker, third worker for the empire
second galley, third galley, second trireme for the empire.

Hmmm, there is usually no substitute for early cities, but I can see the case for a library to get an Academy for Paris.
Granary is a waste of time before we have HR, as unhappiness decay from whipping is much more the problem than growing.

grow to size 4 on granary, 2-pop whip settler, finish granary and start on library while growing to size 4 again, 2-pop whip library, grow to size 6 while building galley

I quite like your plan, but I would replace Libarary for Granary, whip settler, finish Lib. After that probably boats/settlers
 
BTW, I'll be on a trip Thursday through Sunday, so if you don't want to have another several day delay after Benginal does his turn then Brian and I should switch (I assume Brian is the "me" on the turn order).
 
Turn Report

Log
Spoiler :
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1125 BC to 525 BC:

Turn 115, 1125 BC: You have discovered Masonry!

Turn 116, 1100 BC: Catherine converts to Hinduism!

Turn 119, 1025 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 120, 1000 BC: Willem van Oranje converts to Judaism!

Turn 121, 975 BC: Rheims has been founded.
Turn 121, 975 BC: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Napoleon's Galley 1 (Paris) (2.20)
Turn 121, 975 BC: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 121, 975 BC: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 121, 975 BC: Napoleon's Galley 1 (Paris) is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 121, 975 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 121, 975 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 121, 975 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 121, 975 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 121, 975 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 121, 975 BC: Napoleon's Galley 1 (Paris) has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 122, 950 BC: You have trained a Galley in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 126, 850 BC: You have constructed a Library in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 128, 800 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 129, 775 BC: Your maps have proven that the world is round! Your ships receive a +1 Movement bonus.

Turn 130, 750 BC: You have constructed a Lighthouse in Rheims. Work has now begun on a Library.
Turn 130, 750 BC: Barbarian's Galley (2.00) vs Napoleon's Galley (2.20)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Combat Odds: 32.2%
Turn 130, 750 BC: (Plot Defense: +10%)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Napoleon's Galley is hit for 19 (81/100HP)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Napoleon's Galley is hit for 19 (62/100HP)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Barbarian's Galley is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 130, 750 BC: Napoleon's Galley has defeated Barbarian's Galley!

Turn 134, 650 BC: The borders of Orleans have expanded!

Turn 135, 625 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Lyons. Work has now begun on a Lighthouse.

Turn 136, 600 BC: The borders of Lyons have expanded!

Turn 137, 575 BC: Orleans will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 137, 575 BC: Orleans will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 137, 575 BC: Lyons will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 137, 575 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 137, 575 BC: The Temple of Artemis has been built in a far away land!

Turn 138, 550 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Paris!
Turn 138, 550 BC: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 138, 550 BC: Lyons has grown to size 2.
Turn 138, 550 BC: Lyons can hurry Lighthouse for 1? with 40? overflow and +1? for 15 turns.
Turn 138, 550 BC: Victoria will trade Iron Working, Polytheism
Turn 138, 550 BC: Joao II will trade Hunting, Iron Working, Polytheism
Turn 138, 550 BC: Willem van Oranje will trade Hunting, Iron Working, Polytheism
Turn 138, 550 BC: Isabella will trade Hunting, Iron Working, Polytheism

Turn 139, 525 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Paris!
Turn 139, 525 BC: Paris will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 139, 525 BC: Willem van Oranje is the worst enemy of Ragnar.
Turn 139, 525 BC: Paris will grow to size 4 on the next turn.


Autolog

Spoiler :
I can't seem to find the one with the pretty colors. I hope I didn't have to do anything to get this to record, because I didn't.


Highlights

Spoiler :
turn 116: Meet WvO
turn 117: Catherine converts to Hinduism, but we don't know who founded it
turn 121: WvO converts to Judaism, but we don't know who founded it
turn 121: Settle Rheims
turn 128: Meet Izzy founder of Buddhism
turn 130: We circumnavigate, :)
turn 132: 2-pop whip forge and start on Colossus in Paris
turn 134: Catherine gets Alphabet
turn 138: We meet the last AI, Ragnar
turn 138: We get Alphabet
turn 138: Ben takes lots of screenshots and then absent mindedly hits enter. SON. Ben quits the game and uploads before he can do more damage.


Notes & Explanations

Spoiler :
turn 116: Our trireme defeated the first barb galley, but then died to the second one. It did leave it extremely wounded. So I unloaded the settler from the galley and beat the barb galley at 99.79% odds. This delayed settling of the gold city a little bit, but it got the barb galley out of the way. I started on Alphabet as per the plan. I also met Willem vO. He only knows Catherine. I didn't open borders right away since Catherine was WHEOOHRN and I didn't want to provoke her. The worker finished the mine on the grassland hill in Lyons and starts on a Quarry.

turn 117: Catherine converts to Hinduism, but we don't know who founded it. I also switched all our EP to Victoria since she's usually a pretty good techer and I thought she was nearby given that we met her first.

turn 121: I finished the wb in Paris and sent it over to where Rheims was going to be. WvO converted to Judaism, and we also don't know who founded that! So there's definitely at least one more AI to meet, and possibly 2. We settled Rheims this turn and it started on a Library. Orleans interrupts it's Library build and starts on a Galley.

turn 122: Our exploring galley defeats a barb. Phew. Lyons starts on a lighthouse. Orleans whips the galley for two-pop and overflows into the library. I whipped the galley so that it could make it down to Lyons in time and pick up the stone worker and bring it over to Rheims to mine and road the gold.

turn 124: I realized that a library was a really stupid build in Rheims, so I insert a Lighthouse at the top of the queue.

turn 125: I finish the stone quarry. I also notice this turn that WvO has gone into WHEOORN mode. It might have happened earlier. But now both he and Cathy are plotting.

turn 126: I two-pop whipped the library in Orleans. I thought about what to overflow into a lot and eventually picked a Trireme. I might have thought about it so much that I made the wrong choice. I'm still not sure. But we could always use some barb defense/more exploring so I think it's okay. I felt stupid overflowing into a settler/worker since we have so much food and not a lot of hammers so I wanted to overflow into something that couldn't be built with food. The infra was alright and we already had a few galleys, so I picked trireme. Shrug.

turn 127: I inserted a WB into the queue in Lyons (in front of the lighthouse) so that it would complete in 9 turns, the borders would pop in 10, and we could then improve the fish right when the borders popped. I notice that it looks possible that we can circumnavigate, so I put city site exploring on hold and try to prove some spherical qualities.

turn 128: I met Isabella this turn and she has founded Buddhism, but not Hinduism, so the founder of that is still out there somewhere. She's already annoyed with Catherine, but I open borders anyway and hope for some religion spread.

turn 129: Confucianism FIADL, so we couldn't have gotten it anyway. Good thing we didn't tech that first.

turn 130: We prove the world is round, and our galleys are now kick ass, as are our workboats, triremes, and sea going trams. I whipped the lighthouse in Rheims as soon as we got to pop 2 and overflowed into a library which will be our second build. We have enough good stuff in the small cross that we can wait for border pop from the library. And the trade routes+gold+two water tiles already give so much commerce that the 25% boost is significant.

turn 131: Our original ferrying galley beat a barb. It went up to 2/2 XP and I gave it combat 1. I'm not sure if this was right. I thought about flanking 1, so that we could give it sentry later. But I thought that was a little optimistic and with combat 1 it will be more likely to survive.

turn 132: In a move that will piss some of you I 2-pop whipped the forge in Paris. You'll only be bad until you get to the end of this report though, and then you'll be like. It's okay, the whip is awesome and unhappiness is not that bad.

turn 133: I start on the Colossus in Paris. It will take a while. I need to go exploring through WvO's land so I open borders. We now have open borders with everybody we know, which is 5 civs other than ourselves.

turn 134: Catherine gets alphabet. This is annoying news to be sure. But it's not the end of the world as we're very close to it ourselves. She will trade poly, hunting, and alphabet, and wants Metal Casting. I decide not to do anything rash. I continue going for Alphabet and ignore Catherine. I do however add 2 scientists in Orleans to take a turn of Alphabet.

turn 135: I adjust the slider so we get to 80% so that we can get to Alphabet in three turns. Binary research is better sometimes. But it would have taken 4 as we'd run out of gold. So 80% research it is.

turn 137: I turn down the slider just enough to finish Alphabet. I think we're going to want to go Currency anyway, but just in case we didn't want to and I messed up (which I will do) I didn't want to put beakers towards the wrong thing. The road on the gold was also started this turn.

turn 138: We meet the final AI, Ragnar. He's very close to us and the founder of Hinduism. Alphabet came in this turn and I planned to end the round here. I took a lot of screenshots, but then hit enter by accident. I'm really sorry, but I didn't think anything tooooo bad happened as I think all the AIs still have the same things up for trade. I was too scared to check though, so I'm not positive. EDIT: I went back and checked. We're in the clear.

turn 139: No major decisions were made. There's a barb galley in our territory, but he's chasing a Spanish workboat, so I think we're in the clear.


Picture Time

Empire
Spoiler :
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Cities
Spoiler :
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Surrounding Land
Spoiler :
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Espionage
Spoiler :
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Diplo Screens
Spoiler :
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Discussion Points
Spoiler :
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Very nice! Circumnavigation is awesome, without it this would be very hard.

turn 132: In a move that will piss some of you I 2-pop whipped the forge in Paris. You'll only be bad until you get to the end of this report though, and then you'll be like. It's okay, the whip is awesome and unhappiness is not that bad.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I can't see any images yet but it all sounds pretty good to me. I don't mind the whip, really. :mischief:
 
The extra turn is not a huge deal. Looks like a nice solid turn set. Well done! And circumnavigation will be huge on this map. :goodjob:

Initial thoughts on my way to bed :sleep::

It's a good thing Confucianism went so early, before we invested the beakers in CoL. Having a lot of religions out there may play to our advantage since it's less likely an AI love-fest will break out.

We are keeping up with the AI in expansion despite our horrid start.

Regarding your war bribe idea: Ragnar might be the most accessible earlier target, and the sooner we get rid of him and his Berserkers, the better. Bribing him to war might be worthwhile if Spain could manage to keep him pre-occupied. My concern would be if he steamrolled Izzy, we'd end up with monster Ragnar as a neighbor.

Looking at the save, this deal seems attractive:

Spoiler :
We could skip hunting if we want happiness warriors
Civ4ScreenShot0522.jpg


And this might be a nice site for a city to act as a staging area if we attack Ragnar:

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0523.jpg


Edit: I would vote for continuing with Currency at this point. No one has Monarchy yet, but HR is the favored civic of 3 of the 6 AIs we've met so far. So someone is bound to research it soon.

Cathy is the worst enemy of Isabella, and Willem is the worst enemy of Ragnar.

Edit2: And you need to enable logging in BUFFY to generate an autolog. In the BUFFY options menu (Ctrl + Alt + O) there is a logging tab. You need to select the "Enable Autologging" and "Start Automatically" options. The autolog will be saved to the Autolog subfolder in the BUFFY folder.
 
Or alternatively press Alt+L at the start of the turnset and click "OK", though this method can be a pain to remember.

I'll have a look at the save in a while. Am a bit tired today.
 
Circumnavigation in BC years is awesome, especially on that map.

I'm in favor of doing the deal with Joao, but we would have to see, what we could get from anyone to maximize the techs.
Do we want to start playing favorites and annoy only half of the AI ? I'm not that good at diplomacy, so I should be granted only half a vote.
Shall we shift Orleans to a settler as soon at it grows ?

I'm in favor of currency, I'm pretty certain an AI will get Monarchy really soon.
 
A lot of AIs have IW, so I'm pretty sure we could work out a trade for it using Alphabet and not much else. Joao might even go for a straight IW for Alpha swap.

With CoL already gone, I might research Aesthetics after Currency, with the idea of going for the GLib. Picking up Poly in a trade would be good if we want to research Literature soon. We could certainly use some combination of Currency, Alpha, and/or Aes to pick up Monarchy and maybe CoL.
 
I can't see any images yet but it all sounds pretty good to me. I don't mind the whip, really. :mischief:

Images are up! And I'm glad you're okay with whipping as I see more of it in our future, :p.

The extra turn is not a huge deal.

Yeah, it's not as bad as I thought it was going to be. The main reason I was annoyed was because I didn't do it on purpose. As far as I can tell the only bad thing that happened is that I hadn't checked micro thourougly since I wasn't going to end the turn and we're going to miss a citizen turn or two since Paris should have grown last turn. :mad:.

It's a good thing Confucianism went so early, before we invested the beakers in CoL. Having a lot of religions out there may play to our advantage since it's less likely an AI love-fest will break out.

Yeah, it went super early. And there is almost no chance of an AI love fest as far as I can tell. It seems they're all getting their own religions.

Regarding your war bribe idea: Ragnar might be the most accessible earlier target, and the sooner we get rid of him and his Berserkers, the better. Bribing him to war might be worthwhile if Spain could manage to keep him pre-occupied. My concern would be if he steamrolled Izzy, we'd end up with monster Ragnar as a neighbor.

Yeah, I'm also not sure how effective Ragnar will be though. AIs are still not very good at warring on water. And it might just serve to have them both produce a lot of units which thanks to emperor bonuses are not that expensive for them. It is relatively cheap though since we will be trading Alphabet away soon anway.

We could skip hunting if we want happiness warriors.

YES!

I would vote for continuing with Currency at this point. No one has Monarchy yet, but HR is the favored civic of 3 of the 6 AIs we've met so far. So someone is bound to research it soon.

For sure! Not only will the AIs research it soon (I think we need at least two of them to have it before they'll trade it), but we'll also be able to get easy diplo with them.

Cathy is the worst enemy of Isabella, and Willem is the worst enemy of Ragnar.

:lol:. Lovely bubbly. I'm a little worried that opening borders with all of them was not a good idea. We'll have to have some plans in place for when we get demanded to stop trading with which will probably happen. I hate stopping trade since it means we can pretty much NEVER trade with them again. So that's what I didn't want to open borders with everyone. In the end though, opening borders with Willem was a good move since it allowed us to circumnavigate!

Circumnavigation in BC years is awesome, especially on that map.

I KNOW RIGHT! When I saw the minimap stop getting bigger I was like hooooolllly moooooollly we're about to circumnavigate this baby.

I'm in favor of doing the deal with Joao, but we would have to see, what we could get from anyone to maximize the techs. Do we want to start playing favorites and annoy only half of the AI ? I'm not that good at diplomacy, so I should be granted only half a vote.

I'm not sure about this. We've already got some worst enemies. So a little selection in AI trading partners seems like a good idea. Does somebody care to look up the specifics about trading with worst enemies. I think it's something like if the trade is pretty fair it's not worst enemy trading? Or something. Also, we're going to need some diagrams of what's what. It's going to be confusing when people start demanding stuff, since conceding to a demand does count as trading with worst enemy...

Shall we shift Orleans to a settler as soon at it grows?

Or just start right now. Two-pop whip it and then continue to work on the trireme until we get back to size 4. Or we could go 5 to 3 and keep a scientist at all times.

I'm in favor of currency, I'm pretty certain an AI will get Monarchy really soon.

I hope so. Currency is a for sure definitely next tech now I think. We can trade alphabet for IW, Monarchy, Poly, and later probably Math and Code of Laws. Also we'll be able to trade Metal Casting soon once the Colossus makes a little progress. Nobody has the pyramids yet, so we don't have to worry about a surprise engineer bulb. (This happened to me recently when I trade Nationalism like 3 turns away from Taj and then it got built the next turn, :().

With CoL already gone, I might research Aesthetics after Currency, with the idea of going for the GLib. Picking up Poly in a trade would be good if we want to research Literature soon. We could certainly use some combination of Currency, Alpha, and/or Aes to pick up Monarchy and maybe CoL.

Perhaps, we can trade Metal Casting for everything we need. But we might consider a Civil Service beeline too. Once we get Moai and an Academy in the capital it's going to be a monster (while our other cities will be pretty meh, but, but still meh).


I guess this wasn't that clear. But my other interesting discussion point was Victoria. She has two cities, she's backwards, and her capital has Stonehenge and the Temple of Artemis. We have access very soon to axes and already have 3 move galleys. Also we met her relatively soon so she should be close, somewhere to our Northeast if iIrc. Let's go take her stuff!

Great Person

I think my math will be about right on the GP in Paris. Probably more like 25% Engineer. I'm going to say hang out to an engineer for the great library and settle a prophet right away for the hammer boost. Also, the capital is getting enough commerce now that we're going to want a library soon after Colossus.
 
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