SGOTM 13 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't

[Benginal]

hahahaha, .

Trystero, I was not blaming at all. You did great work early on. But later when we got more information, none of us, not just you, realized that we had more information to help our decision making, like that Freddy was not in the game.

And it certainly did slow down our warring. I think we got a little side-tracked on the task at hand: domination/conquest. But the wonders are so pretty ...

 

[Gumbolt]

Maybe not to as great an effect as they did, but we should have realized we had more time and at the very least didn't have to do that 3-pop whip we did.

You 3 pop whipped the Oracle?? You had the possible marble city with 2 clams nearby? We mostly whipped builds into this. The LH was useful for this. We may have also chopped a forest on the nearby island too. Perhaps we put far too much micro into getting the Oracle. Still the date we got was closest to what the best Ai acheived in our test game if they had marble.

From reading reports it looks like you slow built the TC? We saved all the forest near our capital for this. Once copper was hooked up we were chopping for 90+ hammers a chop. We pre chopped/mined all the forest too. TC was built in 4-6 or so turns. It just allowed us to use the capital for other builds. We had forests to spare and could of whipped a monument or WB into it too.

The one build we did miss was Moai Statute. I am still not sure if it was worth settling the stone city for it. By time we laid the copper city it would of had to share the fish. Even if you assumed you would be playing past 1000ad it would of taken us 17+ turns to build it in the capital. With so much whipping planned for units we just never built it.

So much effort on 2 wonders when we should of laid the copper city and prepped for war. You live and learn.

 

[neilmeister]

Were safe from the spoon, Maple Sporks finished with a lower score.

 

[nocho]

Were safe from the spoon, Maple Sporks finished with a lower score.

But we finished earlier and with even more cities than you had, damn it!

 

[Trystero]

Were safe from the spoon, Maple Sporks finished with a lower score.

In the spirit of setting for ourselves achievable goals, I suggest in the next SGOTM we strive to not have finishing with the lowest point total be our overriding concern.

 

[neilmeister]

WARNING TO ANY NON-TEAM MEMBERS READING THIS THREAD

This is my opinion, stated in my teams thread, so if you read it and are offended, don't complain. (here at least)

Spoiler :

Private threads??
There is some heat between some of the Ducks & OSS. Some of the members of OSS have called a spade a spade, and the ducks have taken offence. The problem I see is that it is their team thread, and they have just found out that they lost and were discussing how they think they lost. We have treated this thread as ours, and I know I might have said a few things that I might not want other teams to read. Hence the little warning and spoiler!

Flying Camera.
Looking through the ducks thread, it is obvious that using the flying camera trick, they could determine the general lay of the land on turn 0. I'm amazed at how much info they gleaned from this.
Personally, I agree with some of OSS that have said that it is a dirty tactic, especially after seeing just how much info they got.

Breaking rules
I have noticed that the ducks broke the rule about swapping saves outside of the server. This was before the server was having issues, and the sole reason was to try and not give other teams information through the results page. It isn't 'cheating', but I am disappointed at such a flagrant breach of the rules. I am not going to complain, as it obviously had no affect on them winning, but still, its disappointing.

 

[Benginal]

my response

Spoiler :

Flying Camera.
Looking through the ducks thread, it is obvious that using the flying camera trick, they could determine the general lay of the land on turn 0. I'm amazed at how much info they gleaned from this. Personally, I agree with some of OSS that have said that it is a dirty tactic, especially after seeing just how much info they got.

I'm not so sure that I agree with you on this one Neil. There was recently some discussion in ALC 33 about whether begging 1 gpt to secure peace was legitimate. I declined to comment, but I'll say here that I think it's part of the game and is therefore okay. In real life most humans have elected to follow a moral code for everyone's well being. In games, though, if it's legal I think it goes and morality be darned, especially with the extra rules put in by the HOF mod. I too saw how useful the flying camera was to them and decided to try and figure out how to do it myself. That's more my attitude about games: if it's legal it's legal and I'll take advantage of it.

 

[Trystero]

Neil:

Spoiler :

Private threads??
There is some heat between some of the Ducks & OSS. Some of the members of OSS have called a spade a spade, and the ducks have taken offence. The problem I see is that it is their team thread, and they have just found out that they lost and were discussing how they think they lost. We have treated this thread as ours, and I know I might have said a few things that I might not want other teams to read. I could have easily come here and b1tched hard about Sun Tzu Wu, after our little issues in the HoF threads. Hence the little warning and spoiler!

I really don't view these threads as "private". Especially since I know they will be looked over by other teams in postgame analysis. Even in the MTDG I participated in, where the threads really are private, I try not to say anything I would not say to somebody in person.

Flying Camera.
Looking through the ducks thread, it is obvious that using the flying camera trick, they could determine the general lay of the land on turn 0. I'm amazed at how much info they gleaned from this.
Personally, I agree with some of OSS that have said that it is a dirty tactic, especially after seeing just how much info they got.

I had not thought about it like this. I tend to share Benginal's view that it is part of the game's interface that can exploited for some advantage. Since after this SGOTM, the tactic (and it's advantages) will be public knowledge, I don't see it being an issue in future games. I am open to arguments that it goes against the spirit of the game, if you'd like to make them, and would not object to it being banned, but I don't think PD were cheating in this case.

 

[neilmeister]

Spoiler :

Thats an interesting comparison. IMO, begging 1gpt and securing 10t of peace is legit, its meant to be part of the game. It is little known, that begging or responding to a beg enforces 10t of peace, but it is a straightforward & transparent part of the game.
I haven't looked at ALC 33 in a while, but I can assume that this was a contentious point.

The flying camera is an exploit, that takes advantage of bugs in the game.
If you look at it simply, it is a method to see parts of the map before you have seen them. I can't see how this is not against the spirit of the game.
Anyway, I'm not really complaining about it, it was available to all after SG12, where the ducks used it to great effect, other than to say I personally don't like it.

I also try not to write things that I would not say (honestly, despite all of the evidence saying otherwise), but what you write is much more open to misinterpreation than what you say. There is no tone. The comments made by Dhoomstriker that so upset Duckweed where him just being silly. Yes he should have been aware that others would read them. I cannot comment really, as my little spat in the HoF demonstrates

Thanks for the enlightened responses.

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler :

Thats an interesting comparison. IMO, begging 1gpt and securing 10t of peace is legit, its meant to be part of the game. It is little known, that begging or responding to a beg enforces 10t of peace, but it is a straightforward & transparent part of the game.
I haven't looked at ALC 33 in a while, but I can assume that this was a contentious point.

The flying camera is an exploit, that takes advantage of bugs in the game.
If you look at it simply, it is a method to see parts of the map before you have seen them. I can't see how this is not against the spirit of the game.
Anyway, I'm not really complaining about it, it was available to all after SG12, where the ducks used it to great effect, other than to say I personally don't like it.

I also try not to write things that I would not say (honestly, despite all of the evidence saying otherwise), but what you write is much more open to misinterpreation than what you say. There is no tone. The comments made by Dhoomstriker that so upset Duckweed where him just being silly. Yes he should have been aware that others would read them. I cannot comment really, as my little spat in the HoF demonstrates

Thanks for the enlightened responses.

Spoiler :

This is a private thread?? Once you complete the game anyone can post.

You can't ban the flying camera trick. I could take all the pictures and store them on my pc. How would anyone know I even took them? Least teams like PD, PR and TNT are honest about it. We gained little from it really. In fact most teams knew about it but some chose simply not to use it. Would it of found the gold city earlier?? Maybe not.

I think the 1 gold trick is well known by most teams. Personally I don't think we even needed it as none of the Ai were ever in a position to attack us this game. It does sound crazy that I could ask a huge nation ready to invade me for a quid and they would wait 10 turns. The game was never going to be bug free.

Not sure about swapping saves outside the forum. I thought Kossin played most of PD turnsets near the end. Has anyone else made a complaint on this?

 

[kossin]

You are entitled to your opinions, however you may not post opinions as fact.

I have noticed that the ducks broke the rule about swapping saves outside of the server. This was before the server was having issues, and the sole reason was to try and not give other teams information through the results page. It isn't 'cheating', but I am disappointed at such a flagrant breach of the rules.

There is one instance of the save being shared outside the server yes:
Mar 05, 2011, 02:48 PM
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10276493&postcount=159

Now, please look at the following:
Mar 04, 2011, 07:16 PM
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10274116&postcount=58

Furthermore, the save was not transferred (swapped), it was examined. The following turns were played by srad before uploading to the server.
It's a long time practice to upload the save inside the team thread to have teammates examine it during a turnset, only this time it was impossible to upload to CFC.

...

Now, if you're referring to SGOTM12, you are right we thought about it but the staff noted us not to so we didn't.

 

[neilmeister]

Before this goes any further, I want to state a few facts.

I just wanted to have a brief discussion, with my team mates, regarding the discussion occuring in the OSS thread. I certainly do not want to get involved in another spat.

- I am not complaining about anyone or any other team.
- I am not asking for anything to be banned, especially things that could not be banned.
- I am not asking for any team to be penalised. As I said in my original thought, it had NO outcome on the game.
- I understand that this thread is not private, but was trying to make the point that it was, once. At least for other players. I was trying to put some context around some of the comments in the OSS thread.

edit: x-post.
Kossin, I'm not trying to say you cheated. Again, I will state that it had no outcome on the result.

 

[neilmeister]

@srad
Can you upload the save in the thread so we can take a look?

Cannot upload the file as attachment. Seems to been an issue with the server. See post in Maintenance Thread.

Should I upload the save to SGOTM Progress?

Sorry to be a PITA but can you upload to an external site and link here? Don't think it'd be useful but I'd just like to double-check now that we see more

I will stick by what I said, it is a FACT. You swapped the save, outside of the server. I did not say you did it to cheat, but it doesn't change this simple fact.

Anyway, I still apologise, as it HAD NO bearing on your very well played game

 

[Gumbolt]

It looks like PD had the first 61 turns pretty much planned. We did start on a small island so not much was going to happen till a Wb/galley was built. Would posting 4-5 more saves on SGOTM server really have made a big difference?

The rules are down to AlanH. He didn't intervene any further on this matter. No doubt he will check the save for anything unusual in the logs before he gives out the laurels.

One of the interesting things about these games is understanding the game mechanics and features. You can say one thing or another is cheating but unless you can trace it in logs it is hard to ban. It would be hard to stop the flying camera or 1 gold demands for peace. Clearly Firaxis has not disabled the flying camera feature either and were at 3.19 build now. If a team used a trick to get 8-9 techs from Liberalism that you would notice.

The posting of saves could be managed more. How long after starting a turnset should you upload a save?? 24 hours? 48-72 hours? I think the rules state you must upload the save 24 hours after completing the turnset?

IF PD had played it out as one turnset of 200 turns I would be worried. For me as long as one player did all 60 turns it is fine. A turnset should end when a second player takes over the save. It protects the team from errors happening too.

For my part it is nice to see how PD did in first 20-30 turns on power graph. Gives us middle teams an idea on how the game is going. Not that we can make much from their graphs anyway.

On a final note I really must learn not to get involved in private discussions.

 

[neilmeister]

Enough of this please. If I wanted to have a public discourse on the rules, I would have done it in the maintenance thread.

 

[Alamankarazieff]

After a quick look at the OSS thread, it seems that Duckweed is getting inordinately miffed at a fairly tongue in cheek comment by Doomstriker (insert an H where needed.)
I noticed in other threads that my awestruckness at his playing skill is not joined by an immense respect for his humility and courteousness. Ah, I'll file him under "temperamental genius".
Still impressed by the games thus said, and can't wait to get my arse kicked thoroughly at the next SGOTM.

 

[Benginal]

Well said Alaman. There's a long history, in all disciplines, of people who are very, very good not necessarily being very nice. I think it's important to remember why we go to / look to / ask advice from / admire the people that we do. That being said, it would be nice if everyone could be civil.

Saves outside the thread. I'm not sure for the real reason behind this rule. It was cool to analyze power graphs and score graphs of other teams and figure out who settled in place and research bronze working, but it's really quite irrelevant. I suppose an art could be made of waiting for the ducks to play a turnset, then playing test games until all the graphs looked the same, but that seems just a bit overkill.

The flying camera. I think it was especially useful on this map, more so than a land heavy map. Also neil, I plan on team T'dr using it next game. I'm absolutely sure all I'll be able to tell us is, well it looks like there's a peak nearby, but that's better than nothing, .

As a note to all the people reading this, I have found the flying camera trick amazingly useful this pretty common occurrence: it looks like we're isolated ... are we? I went back to the Zara ALC, the Bismarck ALC, and the Charlemagne ALC, and in all three cases I could have improved the outcome by simply flying my camera around the island and seeing that there was another landmass within 2 or 3 tiles. How Kossin can tell that a peak is 8 and not 9 tiles away is very impressive and not something I plan on being able to emulate. But getting some very important information can be quite straightforward once you learn you really have to go get a mouse, because using the laptop mouse pad is frustrating.

 

[neilmeister]

Well said Alaman.

Yes, I agree.

The flying camera. I think it was especially useful on this map, more so than a land heavy map. Also neil, I plan on team T'dr using it next game. I'm absolutely sure all I'll be able to tell us is, well it looks like there's a peak nearby, but that's better than nothing, .

No problems, there is no point restricting ourselves if other teams don't.

 

[kossin]

How Kossin can tell that a peak is 8 and not 9 tiles away is very impressive and not something I plan on being able to emulate. But getting some very important information can be quite straightforward once you learn you really have to go get a mouse, because using the laptop mouse pad is frustrating.

Second part: a mouse is obviously more precise than a laptop pad but I found myself using the keyboard more than anything else.

First part: actually, it's pretty easy, just use Alt-X to pinpoint location/distances. It is, however, quite time consuming to be precise in exactness of positions. I can show you if you can't manage it.

Another neat trick with Alt-X is that you can find how far north/south you are on the map, which can help you figure out your surroundings and/or if tundra/jungle/... is nearby.

 

[Mitchum]

Not to barge in on a personal chat in YOUR team thread... OK, I'm going to barge in!! I'm with neilmeister on the Flying Camera Trick. As has been mentioned, using the FCT allows you to see things that you shouldn't be able to see. Team OSS saw this as an exploit and chose not to use FCT at all in this game. Rather than spending a lot of time trying to figure out how to use FCT and then to spend loads of time with the real save maping everything out, wouldn't it be easier to just agree not to use it?

There are many other things that are agreed but cannot be policed. I seem to recall hearing about a post where someone listed many, many ways someone could cheat if they wanted to do so. In the end, the cheaters will cheat and there isn't much anyone can do.

Is FCT cheating? No, not in this SGOTM. However, I'd like to lobby to ban its use in future SGOTM/xOTM games. Plus, I don't want to spend any time learning how to do it!

My $0.02!