Blasphemy!
But I'll bow to the group consensus and see what I can do with settling on the PH in my test games. I'm going to be pretty strongly against settling on the corn as having only two clams for all our food is very meager indeed.
SGOTM 13 - T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Blasphemy!
But I'll bow to the group consensus and see what I can do with settling on the PH in my test games. I'm going to be pretty strongly against settling on the corn as having only two clams for all our food is very meager indeed.
drlake
Emperor
BTW, I suggest that the first turn set be more than 20 turns, since there is so little going on during that period. Perhaps 40? It gives neil a bit more to do. 
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
BTW, I suggest that the first turn set be more than 20 turns, since there is so little going on during that period. Perhaps 40? It gives neil a bit more to do.
750? That way if something goes wrong, we can blame him, and maintain our ways would have been better.
drlake
Emperor
That seems a bit excessive. 
Trystero
Deity
As the #2 dwarf in the line-up, I must admit that I was actually looking forward to a potentially uneventful 20 turns or so to get my head back in the game. But either approach is fine with me.
If I understand the proposals put forth to this point, settling in place is hammer poor, on the corn is better long term (more hills to mine) but loses the early food, and the PH gives us good early production but isn't as good long term since we can't use the PH we settle on.
I must admit it's not clear to me which is best at this point. Can we pick a common point of comparison for the various options? Would the long term shortcomings of the PH start be mitigated if we moved the capital to a larger island later on?
Brian Shanahan
Permanoob
As the #2 dwarf in the line-up, I must admit that I was actually looking forward to a potentially uneventful 20 turns or so to get my head back in the game. But either approach is fine with me.
Well personally, it is up to Neil what to do, though I do expect a mid-set update if he goes the 40 turns.
Here I'm going to say that almost definitely we are going to move our capital, probably to our first good mainland site. So even just for that reason alone I'm going to have to say that we have to leverage as much early advantage out of our island cities as possible, in order to get a decent mainland core together for when we do go a stompin'.
Personally that means settling on the plains hill and going for the strongest early production.
Trystero
Deity
Yes, this was my thinking as well. So I'll also throw my ballot in for the PH. Leveraging the island start suggests we'll need The Colossus to fund our expansion. That should not be difficult if we can get MC from The Oracle. So we really need to choose whatever start will get us the best chances of getting The Oracle.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
I vote PH as well.
As the #2 dwarf in the line-up, I must admit that I was actually looking forward to a potentially uneventful 20 turns or so to get my head back in the game. But either approach is fine with me.
Don't worry Trystero, our first naval unit won't be finished until around t54, so there won't be much to do.
If I went to t40, the only thing to report (other than potential contact with AI), is the screenie for when A-M expands its borders.
edit: and count me in for moving the cap later on. Maoi for A-M, forbidden palace later on.
Trystero
Deity
Yeah, there will probably be so little going on, I'm fine with you playing to turn 40. Or to any other logical stopping point
Trystero
Deity
I tried Neil's most current PH micro on the spreadsheet, incorporating some of the suggested changes to get Oracle faster. I researched Myst > Med > PH before BW > Pottery, and chopped the grass forest into The Oracle. This got the Oracle by a 2 pop whip on turn 90, the same turn I finished Pottery. The build order went: worker > WB1 > WB2 > lighthouse > galley > WB3 (1 turn) > Oracle.
Drawbacks of this approach: no settler/second city yet, and we lose the forested grassland. On the plus side, I've only whipped A-M once, and could immediately whip again for the settler. I could have whipped the settler into Oracle, I suppose. Micro isn't my strong point, but it seems to me that this would give more time for exploration, and we would want BW researched to see where the copper is.
I also worked a coastal tile rather than the second clam most of the time for the extra commerce without growing to unhappiness before BW was researched. I actually starved A-M for a few turns (without losing a pop). If we took took this approach, the second WB could be used for exploration, since we don't need the second clams improved right away.
@Neil: I was wondered how closely this resembled your rushed Oracle approach.
Edit: I think this is close to Neil's approach, except that he whipped the settler into the Oracle.
Drawbacks of this approach: no settler/second city yet, and we lose the forested grassland. On the plus side, I've only whipped A-M once, and could immediately whip again for the settler. I could have whipped the settler into Oracle, I suppose. Micro isn't my strong point, but it seems to me that this would give more time for exploration, and we would want BW researched to see where the copper is.
I also worked a coastal tile rather than the second clam most of the time for the extra commerce without growing to unhappiness before BW was researched. I actually starved A-M for a few turns (without losing a pop). If we took took this approach, the second WB could be used for exploration, since we don't need the second clams improved right away.
@Neil: I was wondered how closely this resembled your rushed Oracle approach.
Edit: I think this is close to Neil's approach, except that he whipped the settler into the Oracle.
Its pretty close, I will update the spreadsheet with what I did. Tech order is exact.
I never held up growth though. Extra unhappy pop are really usefull when you want to start whipping.
I never held up growth though. Extra unhappy pop are really usefull when you want to start whipping.
Trystero
Deity
I tried it again without limiting growth. This didn't work as well. I could finish the settler before the Oracle, and whip the Oracle at t90, but I was still 7 turns from Pottery. I think the key in my first attempt was that I worked a coast tile rather than the corn for a significant number of turns. The difference was the commerce I gained by sacrificing some growth to speed up research. I wish I took more careful notes with that first run-through. I'll try replicating it again.
Just following your micro, what happened to WB 2? A-M only has one worked clams?
Trystero
Deity
I sent it exploring. I thought scouting early might be wise.
Edit: I could have improved the second clam, but in my first run-through I thought we had more than enough food with the lighthouse. I could have improved both clams, I suppose, since I did invest in the lighthouse...
Edit: I could have improved the second clam, but in my first run-through I thought we had more than enough food with the lighthouse. I could have improved both clams, I suppose, since I did invest in the lighthouse...
Early exploring is vital, but not quite as vital as A-M. WB 3/4 or the original galley to explore IMO.
Trystero
Deity
Yeah, that might make more sense. In my first run through I did improve the second clams right away. And it makes sense to explore with the galley if we are going to build it anyway.
You can tell that micro is not my strong point.
Edit: working the 2nd clam did work much better. Oracle was finished on turn 91 (by a 1 pop whip). I could whip the settler on the next turn (for 3 pop). I updated my micro plan.
You can tell that micro is not my strong point.
Edit: working the 2nd clam did work much better. Oracle was finished on turn 91 (by a 1 pop whip). I could whip the settler on the next turn (for 3 pop). I updated my micro plan.
Alamankarazieff
Warlord
Well, I'll be the voice of disagreement here ( a very typical french trait I have to say). When trying both, I had much more success with the corn settling.
I posted the figures of my test games, turn order and we get pretty much the same results, except with one more work boat, a settler already out and installed in a cosy spot.
I also think I have almost one tech more (writing was complete or almost so).
If settling on plains hill doesn't give better turn results and we all agree that three mined hills is better, why do we exactly think this plain hill gives us an edge in the beginning ?
I'll bow to consensus, but could we have hard facts that back these opinions please ?
I posted the figures of my test games, turn order and we get pretty much the same results, except with one more work boat, a settler already out and installed in a cosy spot.
I also think I have almost one tech more (writing was complete or almost so).
If settling on plains hill doesn't give better turn results and we all agree that three mined hills is better, why do we exactly think this plain hill gives us an edge in the beginning ?
I'll bow to consensus, but could we have hard facts that back these opinions please ?
Well, several people did try the Corn, and I was surprised how it turned out. It was quite a good start, but the big problem with settling on the corn is food.
Assuming we have a Lighthouse,
At pop 5:
Corn
2 clams, 2 GH mines, 1 PH mine. = 11 hpt, 15 fpt (surplus 5fpt)
2 clams, 2 GH mines, Coast. = 7 hpt, 17 fpt (surplus 7fpt)
SIP
3 clams, GH & PH mine. = 8 hpt, 18 fpt (surplus 8fpt)
3 clams, GH mine, corn. = 4 hpt, 23 fpt (surplus 13fpt)
PH
2 clams, corn, 2 GH mines. = 8 hpt, 19fpt (surplus 9fpt)
At pop 6:
Corn
2 clams, 2 GH mines, 1 PH mine, Coast. = 11 hpt, 17 fpt (surplus 5fpt)
2 clams, 2 GH mines, 2 Coast. = 7 hpt, 19 fpt (surplus 7fpt)
2 clams, GH & PH mine, 2 Coast. = 8 hpt, 18 fpt (surplus 6fpt)
SIP
3 clams, GH & PH mine, corn. = 8 hpt, 21 fpt (surplus 9fpt)
PH
2 clams, corn, 2 GH mines, coast. = 8 hpt, 19fpt (surplus 7fpt)
As you can see, if we settle the corn, we have more hammers, but less growth. If we stop working one of the mines, in order to get more growth, then we are doing worse than if we settled either the PH or SIP.
The numbers for SIP do look better than the PH, but this is only true once A-M is pop 6 & has a lighthouse.
This does not take into account the ability of growing & building the WB's at the same time. This is the advantage of settling the PH.
edit: I will update my PH micro (I promise), so we can compare everything. Hammers, beakers, food.......
If I have time, I will update my corn one as well. Benginal has had the best SIP results, so could he please update his micro. With Trystero's PH, we can compare quite a few different options. If you want to fight for your preferred option, could you do the same?
Assuming we have a Lighthouse,
At pop 5:
Corn
2 clams, 2 GH mines, 1 PH mine. = 11 hpt, 15 fpt (surplus 5fpt)
2 clams, 2 GH mines, Coast. = 7 hpt, 17 fpt (surplus 7fpt)
SIP
3 clams, GH & PH mine. = 8 hpt, 18 fpt (surplus 8fpt)
3 clams, GH mine, corn. = 4 hpt, 23 fpt (surplus 13fpt)
PH
2 clams, corn, 2 GH mines. = 8 hpt, 19fpt (surplus 9fpt)
At pop 6:
Corn
2 clams, 2 GH mines, 1 PH mine, Coast. = 11 hpt, 17 fpt (surplus 5fpt)
2 clams, 2 GH mines, 2 Coast. = 7 hpt, 19 fpt (surplus 7fpt)
2 clams, GH & PH mine, 2 Coast. = 8 hpt, 18 fpt (surplus 6fpt)
SIP
3 clams, GH & PH mine, corn. = 8 hpt, 21 fpt (surplus 9fpt)
PH
2 clams, corn, 2 GH mines, coast. = 8 hpt, 19fpt (surplus 7fpt)
As you can see, if we settle the corn, we have more hammers, but less growth. If we stop working one of the mines, in order to get more growth, then we are doing worse than if we settled either the PH or SIP.
The numbers for SIP do look better than the PH, but this is only true once A-M is pop 6 & has a lighthouse.
This does not take into account the ability of growing & building the WB's at the same time. This is the advantage of settling the PH.
edit: I will update my PH micro (I promise), so we can compare everything. Hammers, beakers, food.......
If I have time, I will update my corn one as well. Benginal has had the best SIP results, so could he please update his micro. With Trystero's PH, we can compare quite a few different options. If you want to fight for your preferred option, could you do the same?
drlake
Emperor
Honestly, less growth doesn't bother me if the hammer output is worth it. While the extra food is worth more than the extra production for most purposes, the exception is building really big things - wonders. When building wonders, it is possible to use hammer overflow for production but for the most part you need to build them with straight production if you don't have forests to chop. That's probably why settling the Corn is actually working out OK in Ala's tests.
