SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

[The Dude Esq]

Ok, I've had a couple (3) of turns.

Things have been quite interesting and I thought I would stop to ask for you're advice on a couple of points.

First and foremost this is what our dam Barb decides to do: (thumbnail 1). I whipped the galley and whipped the lighthouse in Copper city. (At the end of previous turn.) Then I put the galleys in what I thought was a reasonably good defensive position: (thumbnail 2) (Tho I was slightly apprehensive our further galley would light up the Barb radar.)

Then our foe reappears: (thumbnail 3). This is where I have left the game. So we now have our Settler in Elba. And two galleys near our friend / ready to sail our settler down. So first Qu is how do we not get our settler sunk? I was wondering if by stacking our galleys we may get one sunk, and the computer may not distinguish the two (ie. one with settler in). On the other hand I didn't see an appropriate tile where Without Galley can block. (Ok, one thought, will Barb def go for nearer Galley?) Or shall we fight him off then load settler?

I thought it looked like a gd turn to whip Lib Corsica, so I did. My other Qu is, what should we produce in Elba and Corisca? what makes best sense to me is a wb in Both. Elba can grow in 3 turns (then build Worker.) Corsica can produce wb fastest, and nearer Vick's prob direction. After wb Corisca we can think of pumping out some Warriors. But that will be for next player to decide. The current save is in my next post (I can't fit all the downloads in one post I don't think.) Plus a couple of btw thoughts. (But pls pls be gentle with the save; the galleys are live !)

 

[The Dude Esq]

Some extra observations:

There was a list of most cultured Civs. (Maybe not of so much interest, but I captured it anyway) (thumbnail 1)

Ragnar converted to Buddhism on my final turn. Here are the explorations of wb so far (thumbnail 2). Think that's all.

 

[The Dude Esq]

Actually, I'm quite happy to hand over at this point really. I have really enjoyed my turns. But have just taken quite a while. And it seems quite a good point to hand over.

BUT, I haven't finished playing this turn, am I allowed?

(Ed: we can just move the galleys to finish turn. Then next player can decide on builds, before he presses [Enter]. Is it Dima?)

 

[Keath]

I'll have a look at the save in a short while. Here is the roster --

***ROSTER

dima42 (up)
bjartur (on deck)
justjohn
enKage
keath
Windfury
fizbankovi
2metraninja
The Dude Esq (just played)

cottage chris - not checked in....

Edit: @The Dude -- When you finish your turnset, you should upload the file to the Progress and Results Page >here<

 

[The Dude Esq]

Kool; save uploaded!

 

[Keath]

It looks like 'All around the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel' I'll be interested to see how this chase turns out. I don't think we are any worse off for our dancing with the barb but it has slowed us a turn. The barb behaviour is quite unusual. Then again so is ours!

@ The Dude -- You have definitely had the most interesting turnset yet. I think you did very well given the situation and it is valiant of you to be satisfied with the shorter turnset. I agree with dima that stopping for advice is a smart move, so nice going. Now that you've had your first SGOTM turnset, the next will seem less of a stress.

@dima - I am very interested in your solution to the barb presence. TDE raised a good question about which galley (one with a settler) does the barb attack if they're both on the same tile.

We need to think about sending out some scouting boats, either fish boats or galleys. Meeting the other AI about now would be very timely with Alpha on the way in a few turns.

 

[dima42]

Just confirming I got the save. I'll be reading comments here and thinking for a couple hours tonight, and hopefully post an initial plan around the end of the night.

Things I specifically want input on:

Tech after Alphabet? I realize this is a little dependent on what we can trade for, but I don't think it's that dependent. Are we looking for a late Oracle? Are we trying to get Triremes as fast as possible, and get started on Colossus? Are we trying to quickly get Catapults for an early takeout of Ragnar (and assuring ourselves of iron). For that matter, are we interested in a super-late Axe "rush" on Ragnar, before catapults?

 

[Keath]

1. Tech after Alpha - as you say depends on what we can trade. Prioritize trade for IW for sure, then we'll need the prerequisite techs for Oracle/Colossus if we go that direction.
2. Triremes would be another priority so Oracle ==> MC? Build it in Corsica?
3. Taking out Ragnar is a good choice but I'm not an expert in what would work best. Maybe some of our 'generals' and 'ninjas' have some ideas.....

I usually prioritize exploration so I'm a bit of a fish out of water not knowing who and where our neighbours are. Is it possible to send a scout east to find Vicki and any others to the east?

Would it seem logical that Vicki and Ragnar are on separate islands from the main continent (Europe?). When we find that island a scout would be useful. Once we have a good idea of where everyone is we might also be able to circumnavigate for a useful bonus movement.

Do we want to build more settlers for the fur and pig? How many barracks will we want? So Mathematics/Construction if we want to go to war soon?

Would it be correct to decide on war or wonder building or both?

 

[dima42]

Okay, so it looks like my turnset has an easy part and a hard part: before and after alphabet .

Plan for before is super easy.

Production lines:
Elba: galley (grow to size 5), worker, library
Corsica: warrior, galley, wb, wb (switch off fish to Lyons when happycapped)
Orleans: whip library when possible, start lighthouse
Lyons: whip granary when this becomes possible

Turn 101: Galley2 2W, settler into Galley1
Turn 102: if Galley2 wins, Galley 1 takes straight path for r/f/s. If galley2 loses, settler, unboards to forest on the 2-square island, and galley1 attacks, unless the attack is at under 94%. If both galleys lose, or the attack is at under 94%, I am waiting for galley3 to come onboard. If both galleys win, Galley2 heals and heads exploring due West. (by looking at Espionage points, we can see that Ragnar likely knows more AI's. Also totally minor thing, but I'm switching espionage to 100% Vicky because I expect Ragnar to not be alive for long , and us to not need espionage to effectively kill him. )
Turn 108: barring a barb disaster, r/f/s founded (we have to delay by 1 turn to check for barb possibilities on that island)
Turn 109: alphabet discovered.

Plan for after is very complicated, and will need a lot of discussion.

The following should get us started:

Tech:
Trade for IW. Research or trade for mysticism. Research or trade for Polytheism (more marble wonders). If at any point here Oracle gets finished, stop this path and immediately start on ____. Otherwise, start building Oracle once we hit priesthood (fail gold is equally likely to tech here, I think). This tech path should last through my turns, but I think that of the things that haven't been mentioned, Monarchy is worthwhile since we're whipping all our production. (And one warrior is cheaper than one whip -- this is why we have to be careful about when to hook up copper) On the other hand, AI prioritizes Monarchy and our GNP sucks, so we should be able to trade for it. Another thing to keep in mind is that Vicky prioritizes Metal Casting very early, so it might be desirable to run some espionage and steal it? Trading doesn't get us Colossus on time, but then again if Vicky gets Colossus, we could always just conquer her... and we have Copper so failgold is doubled.

I think conquering wonders sounds like a better plan than building them, with the obvious exception of Oracle and maybe Colossus (to support our conquering!). But I think we need to conquer GLH (obvious), Pyramids/Parthenon/GL (since we're running specialist economy, this combo works well, and two of them are marble-based to we can build them).

I like a late Axe conquering of Ragnar. We don't have a nice enough economy to make catapults come very soon, we have little other motivation for the Math/Construction line, and neither of his first two cities is on hills.

This means that pretty much all the builds after the ones I have mentioned and lighthouse/granary in new cities are Barracks->Axe, except in Elba where we are building Oracle after that's hooked up and a couple galleys at some point.

 

[The Dude Esq]

'Fraid I'm not going to be much help in deciding teching, or a late Oracle rush or late axe rush. They both sound good, but a little risky to me? (I s'pose at least with Oracle we will get some nice Gold, but with Ragnar, if he sends some Triremes after us thing could get a bit hairy, that said, we've not seen any yet.)

But! I did think up some manoeuvring with our galleys. (at last!) We could put our settler on the Southern Galley - sending it South - South, keeping out of range of Barb, and we send Outer galley to confront Or 1 North of new South Galley position. If needs be can load Settler on to island for one turn (next turn). But we will take the galley out of the direct path to Rice / Fish / Spice, so this plan will take at least 1 extra turn. Just a thought!

( Ed: Ah, I've been gazumped by Dima's (prob much better) plan. (That's why he's in charge and not me !))

(Ed Ed: Actually I'd like to say there are not too dissimilar !)

 

[Keath]

Okay, so it looks like my turnset has an easy part and a hard part: before and after alphabet .

Plan for before is super easy.

Production lines:
Elba: galley (grow to size 5), worker, library
Corsica: warrior, galley, wb, wb (switch off fish to Lyons when happycapped)
Orleans: whip library when possible, start lighthouse
Lyons: whip granary when this becomes possible

Sounds good.

Turn 101: Galley2 2W, settler into Galley1
Turn 102: if Galley2 wins, Galley 1 takes straight path for r/f/s.

Vicki's work boat is the wild card here. The barb might chase her rather than attack us. I've seen erratic behaviour from the work boat, so be prepared.

The problem with The Dude's idea of loading the settler and heading due south is that we could lose the barb/galley battle and then lose our clams after all. I think dima's plan is safer.

 

[2metraninja]

I like a late Axe conquering of Ragnar. We don't have a nice enough economy to make catapults come very soon, we have little other motivation for the Math/Construction line, and neither of his first two cities is on hills.

Thats the way to go for me too

 

[dima42]

Today, I learned something about Civ4. It turns out that when you don't settle on first turn, you can still get one beaker on that turn. But you need to go to your science advisor and click on a tech to research.

Sorry about finding this out about a month too late .

 

[dima42]

All AI actions are from the turn before us.

Turn 102: We meet Willem. Barb galley ignores us and chases Willem's workboat. I'm splitting espionage between Willem and Vicky, and opening borders with Willem. Willem has 3 cities, and hinduism (but he didn't found it). He has found us and Ragnar, but not Vicky. We transfer settler from Galley1 to Galley2, giving it 3 movement points that turn.

Turn 104: Barb galley chases Willem towards the Rice/Fish/Spices island . So we have to wait a turn. On the other hand, we don't have to take a combat.

Turn 105: We approach the north tip of the r/f/s island with both galleys. We pursue the island from the eastern end because the barb went on the western end. Since we've seen now two instances of barb activity, I'm sacrificing an extra turn on the city for safe handling. (Settler-less galley is one square ahead at all times)

Turn 106: Switching Elba to worker. I figure we are going to use the galley to transport the worker as its first action, so makes no sense to have the galley first, and the worker can just partially build a cottage or something.

Turn 107: nothing interesting happened.

Turn 108: worker finishes chop/cottage by Orleans. It occurs to me now that we'll get that worker back to Lyons faster. Oh well, I guess now that I'm here I'll cottage Elba. WB done in Corsica, heads towards Orleans.

Turn 109: we just got Alphabet, settler is (finally!) on the spot to build next city, library in Orleans chopped (worker roads, cancels immediately since we can get onto Galley towards Lyons next turn). Aaand.. there's a barb galley threatening Elba's clams. *sigh*

Anyway, here's the tech situation:

Ragnar isn't trading anything ("we don't like you enough"), but has mysticism/hunting/masonry/ah/iw.

Vicky and Willem have identically same techs except that Willem doesn't have iron working. They're willing to trade everything except mysticism (both "have their reasons," i.e. building Henge).



More notes: there was a barb galley by Nidaros, so we parked our WB in that area. We were still paying 0 unit expenses, so there's no way risking it is a smart move.


Okay, now's the hard part. I'll wait ~48 hours on playing this. Current save uploaded.

 

[Keath]

Some rambling comments:
The new barb galley just might chase one of Vicki or Willem's work boats, maybe?

Vicki will trade IW/Mas or IW/Hunting for Alpha. Willem will trade Hunt/Mas/AH for Alpha. Ragnar isn't trading. What does it take to get him up to trading? Do we care?

What about trading for IW/Mas with Vicki, research Myst and see what develops.

With all these potential Stonehenge builds, we might have a nice target soon. i'm betting Ragnar will build SH before the others which would be timely. He built it first in some tests... Having the SH city would be very nice.

I assume the barb galley near Nidaros is the one that we first met, then it chased Willem's wb sw? In games I played, a barb city appeared to the nw. That's where the barb galleys arrive from, right?

Could Ragnar's galley near our f/s/r site have a settler aboard? Thinking of all those nice spices and dyes, perhaps? Would he settle north of us for the dyes? T'would be nice to see this galley tangle with the barb.

Vicki has the GW and an unknown civ has the GLH. The GW is pretty useless for our purposes unless she built it on a large island. It would be nice to explore...

 

[justjohn]

OK, I've been away on a little vecation, but now I'm back. Just had a look at our current position, and I thought I could make some comments (even though all are not fully thought through yet).

Vicki will trade IW/Mas or IW/Hunting for Alpha. Willem will trade Hunt/Mas/AH for Alpha. Ragnar isn't trading. What does it take to get him up to trading? Do we care?

Ragnar will refuse to trade techs while he is cautious towards us. We need to get him to pleased. I suggest giving him some techs to try to get him to cautious. Those techs are cheap and he will get them soon anyway. I haven't forgotten we want to attack him, hopefully soon, but we want to try to get the most from him before then, right?

Btw relationship bonuses are applied straight away, so I suggest giving him Agri and see if that did it. If not, give him Pottery. Maybe we then can get something for Writing. If not, I would even give Writing.

What about trading for IW/Mas with Vicki, research Myst and see what develops.

The IW+Mas for Alphabet is a natural trade, but I would give some techs to Ragnar first to see what happens. I also notice that amongst the AIs we've met, only Willem have any of the religion techs. A bit unfortunate since even if we research Myst ourselves, we might not be able to trade for any of them, so the path to Priesthood and Oracle is still long. On the other hand, it also means that none of the AIs we've met have started building the Oracle, increasing our chance of getting it if that's our next goal. But of course, it would be better to meet some more AIs to see more of the tech situation in our game.

Could Ragnar's galley near our f/s/r site have a settler aboard? Thinking of all those nice spices and dyes, perhaps? Would he settle north of us for the dyes?

That is very possible. If the Galley has been sent with a Settler aiming for a site that will be blocked by our city, then the mission will be canceled and not immediately reassigned to a nearby tile. That decision has to go through all af Ragnar's decision process (as far as I understand AI decision mekanisms), and might end up somewhere entirely different.

-jj-

 

[dima42]

Whether the AI improves relationships based on a tech gift is somewhat complicated, and I don't know the details of the mechanism. It happens most of the time, but I know that when you gift Toku early techs, he will not care at all. This is something that can probably be tested for. Whether I will test it or just try giving agriculture depends on how much time I'll have.

I'd be very confused if there is a settler on that Galley. You might notice that Ragnar has already 3 cities, which means that the settler we saw built earlier is accounted for. He hasn't had time to reasonably produce another settler, unless he happened to hold on to one for a long time.

 

[justjohn]

Whether the AI improves relationships based on a tech gift is somewhat complicated, and I don't know the details of the mechanism. It happens most of the time, but I know that when you gift Toku early techs, he will not care at all. This is something that can probably be tested for. Whether I will test it or just try giving agriculture depends on how much time I'll have..

I didn't mean that such small gifts are guaranteed to get a relasionship status change, by no means. The bonus for "You have shared tech with us" will certainly not increase by 1 (too few techs), but the "Fair trade" might. In any case such bonuses are actually fractional numbers, and sometimes you can get a relasionship status change even if you don't even get a +1 from anything, just from the fractional stuff. In any case, I think it is worth trying.

 

[dima42]

I meant that the fair trade bonus only applies to the tech in some cases. I'm about 90% that regardless of how many techs you give Toku pre-Alphabet, he will not change that modifier at all.

 

[dima42]

After reading through a bunch of code, I retract my previous statement. I must have accidentally given Toku some techs a couple times when he almost had them, and got this into my brain.