SGOTM 13 - Veteran

[AlanH]

Welcome to your SGOTM 13 Team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on December 14th, at midnight, server local time.

Rik Meleet has prepared a Huge map with 29 rivals, at Demigod level. You play as Japan, you start on a small island, and the only way anyone can win - before 2050 - is to build a spaceship. Thanks, Rik, and best wishes to both of you in your future as a married couple.

Here's the start.

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Japan
Difficulty - Demi-god
Opponents - 29
World - Huge (250 x 125), Continents, 70% water
Barbarians - Roaming

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration. Rik isn't saying anything, as he's far too busy on his honeymoon, but we can assume the map has been "adapted"

Game mods:
We shall use the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread.

Following recent discussions about exploits for extracting large amounts of "free" gpt from the AI, so-called "Emsworth Agreements", we shall operate the following rule as proposed by Lanzelot:

In a deal which includes a resource, a millitary alliance or a trade embargo, the human player is not allowed to pay the AI more gpt to AI than the AI demands.

Detailed discussions of the reasoning surrounding this are available starting here in the Sign-up thread for this game, as well as in a number of other HoF and GOTM-related forums.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included. If you have played previous C3C SGOTMs then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack. Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread..

Please ensure that you have included the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file:

A 'fix' for the Barbarians!:
As many of you know, the barbarians in C3C are 'broken'. This can be fixed by going to your \Conquest\ folder, and opening your Conquests.ini file, and adding a line noaipatrol=0 to the file. Whilst we cannot force people to do this, it will make the game a bit more interesting if you do. If you are not comfortable editing your .ini file, you can download a utility here to do it automatically.

Players running Civ3 Complete for Macintosh should contact me if they have any problems with the mod. If they are not running a patched version they will need to use FileValet to compress their saves for upload, and they may also need to use it to 'clean' downloaded saves before playing.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
The SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award set.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest Spaceship victory. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final Jason score, having completed the game one way or another.

C. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

D. Good luck, and enjoy the game

 

[Kulko]

Admiral Kulko is reporting for duty.

As last game, I am an emperor level player with some success in Deity Games, including SGOTM12 .

I prefer playing on weekdays and administrative organizing turnsets.

Greetings Kulko

 

[PaperBeetle]

Governor PaperBeetle signing in.

Welcome back to all the Team Veteran ... er ... veterans. And welcome onto our little island Megistatos and PrinceMyshkin.

On timekeeping, I don't really mind when I play, but I won't have much free time until the new year (not least because I want to ensure a solid result in the sid COTM, having abandoned the GOTM). On playing style: show me the micro! And I'll be keeping a hawk's eye on the team graphs of course.

 

[socralynnek]

Signing in. Reporting for duty. Whatever.

Don't have as much time as in the past SGOTMs. And I'll be away for 3 weeks from mid-January on.

It depends when I can play. Have no preference but weekends might be better. At least I can probably say a few days in advance whether I have time for playing.

Do you have the time to start us off PB?

Does someone see a reason for moving the Settler?
From what I can see I guess we can just found in place.

We can expect quite fast turns for a long time and then long turns in the end of game.
Still, especially with the situation present, planning the first centuries is crucial. There we can lose very much time if done wrong. Therefore MMing every turn is essential.

 

[megistatos]

Hello fellow Veterans. I'm proud to be part of the team. Thank you PaperBeetle for the welcome: I'm especially happy to be playing with you, such a GOTM legend.

Weekends are generally best for me, though I should be able to play whenever throughout Christmas.

Questions: Why in the HOF are vanilla deity and conquests demi-god grouped together? Are they really equal in difficulty? I've looked and vanilla deity looks harder based on AI build rate etc.
What's the resource N-NE? I presume it's something in the mod pack.

Worker to cow unless we feel that he should go onto the hill just to see if there's anything more in the SE. From what is visible, only two cities will fit, then we'll have to get map making asap(hmm reminds me a bit of GOTM 72).

Good luck to us!

 

[Kulko]

I would build in place. The location is relatively rich and definitely allows for one more city. I have no real idea what we might find that would be worth moving.

We are military/religios starting with the Wheel and CB. Or differently put, we are at maximal distance from Mapmaking.

 

[archphoenix]

play time not decide in advance, but weekend or not is the same to me.

and, I think PB will release a speadsheet for our two (or one) city(s) plan which beeline to philosophy(or MapMaking).

 

[PrinceMyshkin]

Hello to all. I should be able to play almost any day.

I don't see horses, so that is a resource to look for early settlements. I think what contacts we make with early curraghs will determine if we should go for philosophy. Is the slingshot possible?

Looking forward to this.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Yes, a bit reminiscent of GOTM 72. Good then that we have both conquest and spaceship awardwinners from that game on the team.
Of course, this game will be different because we can build curraghs, and don't forget we have differential naval movement, so we should be able to find more land quite quickly.
My experience of trying to plan out the start of GOTM72 was that that restricted amount of resources meant that lots of things which would be sub-optimal in a normal game became real possibilities (e.g. joining back the worker, building a granary but no settler pumping, delaying the second city), and therefore trying to calculate each and every scenario was a pretty hopeless task. I will try to work through some possibilities, but I would welcome suggestions as to which options to explore.
I also favour settling on the spot. The reason to move to the hill would be whales in the northeast or southwest. If they existed in the southwest I think we would see them in the fog. Moving the worker to the moo should reveal anything in the northeast sea - looking from the hill would reveal six extra tiles in the southeast, but they are all tiles that we can access whether we settle plains+fog (i.e. on the spot) or hill+bg.

I guess we go for Alphabet first, unless number-crunching shows that an early granary is significantly more productive in terms of commerce? I can't imagine that it would be. I did go for Pots first in GOTM72, but then there were no curraghs available in that game...

 

[PaperBeetle]

Questions: Why in the HOF are vanilla deity and conquests demi-god grouped together? Are they really equal in difficulty? I've looked and vanilla deity looks harder based on AI build rate etc. What's the resource N-NE? I presume it's something in the mod pack.

I think some of the difficulty factors other than AI build cost are aligned PtW deity = C3C demigod. Corruption factor, AI-AI trade, maybe the human research penalty. Several other changes made between the versions were done to hinder the human relative to the AI, such as stretching the length of a minimum tech run and losing the FP's second core. So the net effect is that C3C deity is usually found to be harder than PtW deity.
As for my personal experience... you know I'm not sure if I ever played a normal (i.e. non-SGOTM) game of C3C deity!

The resource is from the med mod alright. Is it "off-shore rocks" or something bizarre like that? My history isn't that great, but I don't recall sub-marine quarrying ever being a significant source of commercial or industrial activity in ancient civilizations... well anyway, +1s, +1c. The +1c is lost to despotism, but I'm sure the extra shield will be welcome once we have the capital grown up to size 5? 6?

 

[Chamnix]

Questions: Why in the HOF are vanilla deity and conquests demi-god grouped together? Are they really equal in difficulty? I've looked and vanilla deity looks harder based on AI build rate etc.

lurker's comment: I think it is because in part the HoF is about high scores. The score multiplier for level (e.g. chieftain = 1, warlord = 2, etc.) is 6 for both vanilla deity and C3C demigod, so if you are going for a high score, lumping them together is more fair than putting the deity levels together. In most other respects, I think C3C demigod is easier than PTW deity .

 

[Taxpayer'sMoney]

Can I suggest that before you get into the specifics of short term strategy you first discuss the overall strategy? The last SGOTM we might have missed a trick or two by being so focussed on micro, and ignoring the bigger picture (e.g. the assumption that it was correct to build Zeus, rather than capture it). Here are some suggestions of topics:

1) Tech path
2) Wonders to build, wonders to get others to build and then capture
3) Trading alliances
4) Diplomacy

 

[megistatos]

In GOTM 72 I built an early granary which meant I had plenty of settlers ready by the time I got to map making. In this game we have a food bonus which would make a granary even more powerful. On the other hand, early curraghs could be vital to success.

I think it will take the worker around 77 turns to mine and road every tile by himself. Building another to speed this, then joining it back could well be a good idea.

What are people's thoughts on early builds. Units, as MPs, for an an early invasion, or to be disbanded for cheap galleys? An early worker? A settler asap? Not many options but the decision is very important.

@Chamnix- good to see you here! Are you our very own lucker then?(I supposed it would be unfair for you to read the other teams' threads)

 

[Chamnix]

Thanks, megistatos, but I can't resist reading other threads as well. I'll be lurking here, but I won't be able to comment on the game.

 

[socralynnek]

One thing is: As always with such a start: TGL might come in very handy as it can make the difference between having a save passage for our soldiers or not.

But I know Rik a little. I am thinking of whether it might be the case that there is something involved which makes us meet everyone very late. But let's plan for a "normal" game. Although such things might shift everything.

I can't imagine going for a Granary first before Alphabet is worth it. But the map might prove different.

2 cities on that island or one powerful? We need Construction to get past size 6...

 

[archphoenix]

this is a rough speadsheet.
it is annoyed that it need about 40turns to show up alphabet.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/61567/sgotm13_1.JPG

 

[PaperBeetle]

Can I suggest that before you get into the specifics of short term strategy you first discuss the overall strategy? The last SGOTM we might have missed a trick or two by being so focussed on micro, and ignoring the bigger picture (e.g. the assumption that it was correct to build Zeus, rather than capture it). Here are some suggestions of topics:

1) Tech path
2) Wonders to build, wonders to get others to build and then capture
3) Trading alliances
4) Diplomacy

You know I'm still not sure where exactly we lost all that time relative to the Spooks in SG12. Mind you, getting Chivalry as a free tech has to count for a lot.

1) Similar to last game I guess? How we get through the ancient age is heavily dependant on what we find when we meet the other civs. In SG12 we did get a little bit delayed researching techs that we might have been able to have the AI get for us. In this game, they should be larger and better able to research, so we should try to arrange for them to do Invention and Guns, which are AI favourites. They can be relied on to go for Astronomy, but that raises the question of whether or not we can get Copernicus. They can be relied on to try for Magnetism, but it can be difficult to give them enough time to do it. Banking and Metallurgy are less likely AI choices, but are offshoots from the main branches of the tech tree, so give the AI more time to do them.
In the industrial era we will have the traditional dilema of whether to leave the AI to get Replaceable Parts, or to rush for it ourselves, and as with SG12 we can try to have AI-favourite Flight done for us, but I can't recall ever actually succeeding in that attempt (it is very expensive of course).

2) I don't suppose that we could build Colossus ourselves, and even if we could, towns on the starting island may not be permanent! Perhaps there is a continent we need to be jumping to, as in GOTM72. The next set of wonders that are important to build ourselves are Copernicus and Newton. Though of course, if there is the possibility to let the AI build one of these and then we take it and rush the FP there.
Later on is the Darwin issue. The ideal time to build Darwin in a space game is the same turn you reach the modern era; whether or not you can get Computers from a SCI civ, Darwin can take you on to Miniatures, and with some careful prebuilding you can have SETI and Internet built that turn. And it means you are getting more expensive free techs than you would if you took Atomic+Electronics, and you get to dealy the oboletion of Colossus. But then, this is demigod, and I guess there is a real danger of the AI getting Darwin if we try to delay it.

3/4) Making alliances to fish for war happiness is still legal, and so we should do it. We can't plan much deeper than that until we meet our neighbours, though as in SG12 we might need to treat the scientific civs with a bit more respect. We should keep an eye out for any civs that look like they have potential to become research partners. If possible, I like for such civs to be non-SCI: when trying to get age-change free techs out of SCI civs, it is helpful if they are so weak that they are lacking contacts and optional techs.

 

[archphoenix]

another 2 cits solution, 35 turns to alphabet.

t00-t06: city1-pop1,(4bpts)
t07: break:28, total_break:28(approxmately)
t07-t14: city1-pop2,(6bpts)
t14: break:42, total_break:70
t14-t21: city1-pop3,(7bpts)
t21: break:49, total_break:119
t21-t28: city1-pop4->pop2(build a settler)(6bpts)
t22-t28: city2-pop2(join a worker) (7bpts)
t28: break:42+42, total_break:201
t29-t35: city1-pop3(7bpts); city2-pop2 (7bpts)
t28: break:49+49, total_break:299
that is, about 34-36 turns get alphabet. and at that time get 2 canoes.

2 citys support 8 free units(4MP and up to 4 workers).
later, wish to trade potty, city1 build ganary and 4 workers,then temple.
join 2 workers to city2 to pop4, join 2 workers to city1 to pop5.
90% techs, wait until MM show up...

 

[PaperBeetle]

7bpt seems a bit optimistic for the second city. Doesn't it get only 1 commerce in the town square? It can work two coasts for 4 commerce, for a total of 5. I'm not sure whether we would lose 1 commerce to corruption, though it is a huge map, so maybe not.
My calculations have still all being pointing towards turn 38 for Alphabet, but then I built the settler on growth to pop 3. You are correct of course, that we must build the settler on growth to 4, because we cannot allow the capital to drop back to a size where it cannot work the fish.

 

[Kulko]

You know I'm still not sure where exactly we lost all that time relative to the Spooks in SG12. Mind you, getting Chivalry as a free tech has to count for a lot.

I am quite convinced, that the big spread was mostly due to bad luck. 15 Turns lost to Chiv and TGL at the other end of the world instead of azteca should account for most of the difference.

But for the real questions.
I am not sure if we can have more than generic before we know the lay of the land. until that the fast track to Mapmaking seems like the most sensible alternative.