SGOTM 14 - Ivan

[Othniel]

Good trading Ivan, especially getting the slaves. I'm slightly uncomfortable settling so much CxxxC, but the fresh water patterns on this map do favor the wider spread.

@DWetzel
As far as the settler factory goes, I understand Ivan's post to be this:

• Chop forest and get granary completed on turn when Lisbon "grows" to size 5.5.
• We then have three turns to build settler before we exceed size 7, which we don't want to do. So to get the settler out in three turns, we chop one more forest.
• After that point, it's a regular 4-turner.

I could be wrong on my interpretation though. I also don't have the save in front of me.


EDIT: Crosspost with Ivan.

 

[DWetzel]

Got it both of you, thanks. Two-turn chop would require our 2 natives + two slaves, I believe? (Which also conveniently gets us a full road crew.) Or am I misremembering?

Will a 3-turn settler be sufficient? We'd go from 5.5 to 6 to 6.5 to 7... the food would add in before the settler pops out, would it not? (This could be handled by slowing down growth for a turn, I suppose).

Again, I'd check this, but I'm at work and too busy to fully think. I only ask so that someone else can do the work before me.

 

[Othniel]

Two natives can do a two-turn chop (4 turns for 1 worker, 2 for 2).

When we build the first settler, we will grow to size 7 and then immediately drop to size 5 with empty food box with the new settler.

I think Ivan's plan with pumping workers for the short turn is to wait until we have enough worker improvements finished for the 4-turner to function properly.

 

[I. Larkin]

I edited post 41 with some colors.
Looks that we will have 7+6+8+10 (cut) schields after settler. Then couple of Wokers
Edit 7+9+8+10 (cut) =34 schields for settler.
In fackt it may after operate as 4 turner, but after improvments of BGs Lisbon may be combo Warrior +Settler.

 

[eldar]

Have to agree I would be more comfortable with more CxxC spacing. Instead of 1 city on the river at Red Dot, we could manage two along that river.

 

[DWetzel]

Two natives can do a two-turn chop (4 turns for 1 worker, 2 for 2).

When we build the first settler, we will grow to size 7 and then immediately drop to size 5 with empty food box with the new settler.

I think Ivan's plan with pumping workers for the short turn is to wait until we have enough worker improvements finished for the 4-turner to function properly.

Okay.

Do we have time for workers before settlers? I don't think so. I think we need to land-grab and then worry about making it pretty. (We do need to make sure that we DO build enough workers, but I think that time will come.) Else we'll have a bunch of workers and not enough land to improve.

 

[I. Larkin]

Have to agree I would be more comfortable with more CxxC spacing. Instead of 1 city on the river at Red Dot, we could manage two along that river.

Do not understand this... we need maximum land with minimum Cities. CxxC is not good for that. It is even more true at initial stage of the game when we need grab land fast.

 

[I. Larkin]

Okay.

Do we have time for workers before settlers? I don't think so. I think we need to land-grab and then worry about making it pretty. (We do need to make sure that we DO build enough workers, but I think that time will come.) Else we'll have a bunch of workers and not enough land to improve.

In fact workers help to grab land a lot. If we build roads only first then settlers will travel faster and will grab more land. I agree, that we lunch 4 -turners before land will be ready.

 

[DWetzel]

Okay, here we go!

 

[DWetzel]

OK, I have played 5 turns but want to stop for a second and do a quick safety check.

Lisbon is correctly set, yes? Just need to be careful to keep +5 fpt after each growth (and of course no riots)? Our workers will finish second chop in 1 turn, so the granary will actually hit before we hit size 5. I think that's fine, if not better than fine (factory should work at 4.5-6.5 I believe), but if not let me know and I can de-shield Lisbon.

Spoiler :

And here's the mighty empire. There's some decent land up to the north.

Spoiler :

Also, we could in theory buy another worker (I've had several opportunities over the first 5 turns), but it would cost us 120 of our 122 gold. Given that we're about to have a granary and want to maintain a max run on something, I don't think it's wise to cash in the last of our gold. Agreed?

 

[DWetzel]

Actually, more on that settler factory, please check my sanity:

Granary hits next turn, at size 4.75.

On growth to 5, we have 5 (+2) = 7 shields. Move worker to BG.
At 5.5, we have 6 shields.
At 6, we have 6 + 2= 8 shields.

That leaves us needing 9 shields the last turn. Which isn't possible.

I can, if desired, move both Russians immediately to the BG that is 2SE of Lisbon. Worker and slave finish chop next turn (granary builds), move to BG, as the two Russians start a mine.

2710 (now): R1+R2 move to BG, Native+Zulu finish chop.

2670: Granary builds, Lisbon at 4.75. R1+R2 start mine (1/6), N+Z move to that BG.

2630: Lisbon grows to 5. 7 shields in. Move forest set on growth to BG (nominally 6 shields). N+Z mine (3.5/6).

2590: Lisbon size 5.5. Mine completes (6/6). 7 shields due to mine completion (14 total). 3 slaves road (may as well), native moves N (back to the forest).

2550: Lisbon grows to size 6. 9 shields (7+2 for forest), 23 total. 3 slaves road. Native moves onto farthest BG.

2510: Lisbon grows to size 6.5, creates settler with 8 shields, 31 total (wheat + plains ivory + wine hill + cow + mBG + BG). Slaves move north. Worker starts road.


If I'm wrong about the mine by a turn, it's even more essential that we start it ASAP, as that's our one shield of leeway in the factory. But I'm mostly pretty sure I'm right.

 

[eldar]

@ DWetzel - any chance you can upload the save so we can all have a look.

The idea was to chop a forest just to get the first settler going.

So we have:
5.5->6.0 = 5 (+2) = 7 total
6.0->6.5 = 6 = 13 total
6.5->7.0 = 6 (+) = 21 total

That leaves us 9 short, so chop a forest, the one E of the Grassland Ivory is the one to go for.

I *think* we will have enough shields for 4-turn settlers there and then:
@ size 5: City center, cow, wheat, wines, irrigated ivory, BG = 6 shields
@ size 5.5: same +2 from forest on growth = 8 shields, 14 total
@ size 6: move citizen from forest to BG for 7, 21 total
@ size 6.5: same +2 from forest gives 9, 30 total, settler done

No need for workers to come out.

[Edit] Worker from Oporto next then spam warriors?

 

[I. Larkin]

You may buy Worker for gpt. Move slider to 0% sci, and then back to 100%. It will also help if russia want war. Looks that I miscalculated... we indeed may have setler at 5 without cut. will check now...

 

[DWetzel]

@ DWetzel - any chance you can upload the save so we can all have a look.

The idea was to chop a forest just to get the first settler going.

So we have:
5.5->6.0 = 5 (+2) = 7 total
6.0->6.5 = 6 = 13 total
6.5->7.0 = 6 (+) = 21 total

That leaves us 9 short, so chop a forest, the one E of the Grassland Ivory is the one to go for.

I *think* we will have enough shields for 4-turn settlers there and then:
@ size 5: City center, cow, wheat, wines, irrigated ivory, BG = 6 shields
@ size 5.5: same +2 from forest on growth = 8 shields, 14 total
@ size 6: move citizen from forest to BG for 7, 21 total
@ size 6.5: same +2 from forest gives 9, 30 total, settler done

No need for workers to come out.

[Edit] Worker from Oporto next then spam warriors?

Save attached.

We're at 4.5 (without granary) and about to get the granary in 1 turn with the second forest chop. That will put us with granary at 4.75. So our 4-turn cycle will be 4.75, 5, 5.5, 6, and 6.5>4.5, and repeat.

To do that, we need one mined BG if my math is right in order to get 6, 8, 7, 9 shields. The BG across the river is the fastest way to do that (unless we get a BG under the forest that is being chopped right now, of course--that will make things MUCH simpler.)

 

[DWetzel]

You may buy Worker for gpt. Move slider to 0% sci, and then back to 100%. It will also help if russia want war. Looks that I miscalculated... we indeed may have setler at 5 without cut. will check now...

I wouldn't worry too much about Russian war. (Well, we could worry about it, I suppose).

We can technically afford one worker right now--but we would be using all of our gold on hand, and I don't know that we will be getting more soon. We could do a purchase for gpt, but I don't know how that helps us (unless they do declare war). It just seems like in the long run it would cost us a few gp for not much gain.

Part of me wants to chop a second curragh out of Lisbon to get contacts maximized. That's probably a waste, but it would definitely be effective. There are light green borders (Celts?) that appeared to our west across the water that we haven't met yet. But that has to be lower priority than the settlers. Next town should probably be a coastal one (north?) to get one more curragh out.

I'd like to have Oporto continue warriors for a bit rather than get a worker out. Maybe take a worker on growth from size 2 to 3. We'll need plenty of warrior-defenders for our new cities.

 

[I. Larkin]

Optimal move is 1 Russian worker to River BG, another remain on Ivory to road.
Slave +Native move to help to River BG. It will give 4/12+3/12+3/6=13/12>1 mine in time.
If last turn you will work on it it will give 2 Schields.

Or :
Third (new) Russian Worker may go to Non River BG, and Native + Zulu will help. Again, last turn labor should work on this tile.

Regardles on war I recomend some cash in hand, to have 100% Sci all the time. So something like 7 gpt + smth for worker will be better

With 4 slaves we may be without native long time.

 

[I. Larkin]

I wouldn't worry too much about Russian war. (Well, we could worry about it, I suppose).

We can technically afford one worker right now--but we would be using all of our gold on hand, and I don't know that we will be getting more soon. We could do a purchase for gpt, but I don't know how that helps us (unless they do declare war). It just seems like in the long run it would cost us a few gp for not much gain.

Part of me wants to chop a second curragh out of Lisbon to get contacts maximized. That's probably a waste, but it would definitely be effective. There are light green borders (Celts?) that appeared to our west across the water that we haven't met yet. But that has to be lower priority than the settlers. Next town should probably be a coastal one (north?) to get one more curragh out.

I'd like to have Oporto continue warriors for a bit rather than get a worker out. Maybe take a worker on growth from size 2 to 3. We'll need plenty of warrior-defenders for our new cities.

Sonner or later we will get some money. We need Phylo at max, that about 18 turns. Also we may borrow from Ottos and Arabia. We defenetly will need to slow down research if pay out our gold. We also may consider compromise, like 5 gpt + gold. Curragh with cut may be an idea, but I think better to pump warrior or scout, when 2 BG will be ready to swich for Combo SF.

 

[DWetzel]

That's probably right. I'm too tired to do anything intelligent with the last five turns, I'll finish it up tomorrow, either over lunch or (more likely) tomorrow evening. That should give us time to discuss dot-mapping a bit more now that we know a bit more of what's up north--I think we could certainly fit another town up there.

 

[I. Larkin]

Relax. We all miscalculated again.
It is 7+6+ 6=19, and nothing will help...
No settler in 4 turns after Granary. Let it be in 5. Then, after in Scheme 5->6>7>5 we may work 6+8+7+9=30 without mining sometime. So we may build roads on Ivory, cut forest near oporto, connect oporto and Incenses... and mine next BGs when we will have time.

Have no good idea what City next. (but I think position of four next is the best) Obviously the City 1 most relyble and secure horses. But it is not Costal.

City 4 good and grab land from Ottos, but barbarians may be there.

City 2 ideal for curraghs, but we will always build it when will have time.

In summary, however, I'd build 1, 2, 3, 4 or 1, 4, 2, 3..

I thought scout will know more about North and find out where Ottos Capital is.

 

[DWetzel]

Shouldn't your red number be 8 (6 + 2 for forest on growth to size 6?) That's where I originally was at in my calculations--which meant 7 + 6 + 8 + ... I was trying to get that to 7 + 6 + 9 (mining the BG and getting forest on growth) + 8. I think it can be done.

Perhaps we should seek additional opinions.