SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

Only combat promotions are applied to the unit possessing them as a % strength improvement. All other promotions, including Cover are applied to the opposing unit as a % strength reduction. As a consequence of how combat (really any) ratios work, the negative % adjustments have less impact then the +10 % Combat promotions. As a result, CR1 + CR2 (-20% + -25% = -45%) is about as effective as Combat 1 + 2 + 3 (+10% + +10% + +10% = +30%), but the former requires two promotions whereas the latter requires three promotions.

You are wrong about Cover being +25%; it is -25% and is applied to the defending Archery unit when the attacking unit has Cover.

Correct, thanks. So the second promotion on either maces or muskets can be equivalent (CR2 vs cover). I've previously shown that the first promotion (C1 on muskets vs CR1 on maces) is of similar value when attacking longbows with airships and siege in support.

As you say, we'll draft whatever unit our tech suits at the time. So we've established that there is no reason to choose our tech to suit macemen if muskets are a reasonable option.

My point was Rifleman is a more economical use of drafting 1 Population than either a Maceman or a Musketman. I was not implying that we should divert our research from our Mass Media "lazy" bee-line to get these technologies, but if some AI Team complete them, we could possibly steal them and draft Riflemen instead (assuming the timing is right and frankly it probably will not be).

Yeah, we know that, and we'd do that if the situation arises. Meanwhile, raising this kind of hypothetical distracts everyone from the business of the moment.

You do bring up valid considerations, but the timing of when a war is desirable and when a new technology unlocks a new main line unit for drafting, determines whether we can draft Macemen or Musketmen. We might find it reasonable to draft a few Macemen prior to completing Gunpowder, but after Gunpowder we will have no choice but to draft Musketmen unless by some odd circumstances (possession of Banking, Replaceable Parts and Rifling), we end up drafting Riflemen instead.

OK. When this thread started, you said the existence of CR promotions was a key ingredient in the decision of how to arrange what to draft. I'm glad that's no longer an issue.

I believe your "siege" arguments would have greater merit with Canon units (strength 12) rather than Trebuchets (strength 4).

The strength of any siege units is not relevant to the discussion of "promoted maces or promoted muskets vs longbows", except that if you have cannons vs longbows, then you don't need CR3 maces in any situation. In any of the other scenarios you just need to bring more trebs or fewer cannons to reach the same kind of situation before the first non-siege unit attacks.

It can be somewhat strange to have pre-Gunpowder siege units in a stack with Gunpowder non-siege units.

Only if you play it that way. Espionage economies often target Gunpowder-Engineering-Nationalism to draft lots of muskets backed by trebs for heavy medieval-era warfare while using castles, courthouses and Nationalism to drive espionage to continue acquiring tech. Our economy is not really an espionage economy (rather a specialist economy backed by Bureaucratic Oxford and early Gspy-fueled tech stealing). We are quite likely to see trebs and muskets as the bulk of our troops in 30-40 turns' time.
 
I am going to load the save and start now. I will continuously edit this post with a turn by turn update.

I will post any questions as a new post.

T 134 As expect, +4 diplo from shaka on music trade. He will still not trade map.

T 135
Taoism successfully spread to Culture bridge and Boston.
Successful steal of compass, spy survives.
No wizard in barb city that was previously Monty's
Shaka/mansa 1 turn from paper, The have <50 gold apiece. Absolutely no trade!
Stone city test game off one hammer. I seem to now remember hearing this, maybe? Will delay growth one turn to stay on track with Uni build.

Turn 136
Renegotiate with Mansa. Now give silk for 7 gold. No longer supplying fish.
Mansa/Shaka now worst enemy of Liz/Genghis.

Turn 137
Drama stolen from Boston. Spy survives.

T138
Finished HE in Isengard. This is a screw up. I am sorry. My test games had Maoi in the queue and I didn't notice it was the HE. We lose hammers that would have been used on 2-3 coast tiles (x Marble bonus) + (x OR bonus). Sorry Edit: I got the Maoi ahead of time at T142. I worked the copper straight through and chopped a forest that Asoka was poised to take, all OR hammers.
AP finished

T 139
Begged for 60 gold from Gandhi at Pleased. He had 120 after AP finished. He declined.

T 140
West witches have optics. Available to steal in 2 turns (waiting for 50% bonus)

T 142
Steal Optics. Spy lives.
Monty will have CS in 5 turns. I galleyed in a spy to Trojan Horse right after spy gone. He can already run missions. Five turns until CS steal.
Genghis/Elizabeth have Engineering. They will not trade it. We can't steal it.
CS/Pacifism adopted.

T 143
Spy in Trojan Horse detected; dead.
Spy in Asoka's territory detected; dead.
Switch Gems city to spy, eta two turns. Send spy from previous mission back to Trojan.
 
That is what I thought after looking Kaitzilla's screenshots...and the garrison pushed the thinking. The quality of the city, strange positioning for a second city, etc.
I think we made name confusion due to its orthography closeness.
That is a barb city, not fake Monty's city.


Spoiler :
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<Description>TXT_KEY_CIV_MINOR_DESC</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_CIV_MINOR_SHORT_DESC</ShortDescription>
<Adjective>TXT_KEY_CIV_MINOR_ADJECTIVE</Adjective>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV_MINOR_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<DefaultPlayerColor>PLAYERCOLOR_WHITE</DefaultPlayerColor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_CIVILIZATION_MINOR</ArtDefineTag>
<ArtStyleType>ARTSTYLE_BARBARIAN</ArtStyleType>
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<bAIPlayable>0</bAIPlayable>
<Cities>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHEROKEE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ANASAZI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TEOIHUACAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_OLMEC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ZAPOTEC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHINOOK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_APACHE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHEHALIS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ILLINOIS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NAVAJO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CARIB</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SAXON</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_VANDAL</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_GOTH</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ANGLE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MAGYAR</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KHAZAK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BULGAR</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ALEMANNI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BURGUNDIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_GEPID</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HUN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_JUTE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHEONICIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ESTRUSCAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_THRACIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PHRYGIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_GAUL</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MINOAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MYCENIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CIMMERIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LIGURIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NUMIDIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SARMATIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SCYTHIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_VISIGOTH</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ASSYRIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HITTITE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HARAPPAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MAURYAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_PARTHIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HARAPPAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_NUBIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BACTRIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CIRCASSIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CUMAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HURRIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KASSITE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_BANTU</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KHOISAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_LIBYAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SHANGIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_YAYOI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ZHOU</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_AINU</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_POLYNESIAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ARYAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_AVAR</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_GHUZZ</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HSUNGNU</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_KUSHANS</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_YUECHI</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_SAKAE</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_UZBEK</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TARTAR</City>


Spoiler :
<Type>CIVILIZATION_AZTEC</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CIV_AZTEC_DESC</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_CIV_AZTEC_SHORT_DESC</ShortDescription>
<Adjective>TXT_KEY_CIV_AZTEC_ADJECTIVE</Adjective>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV_AZTEC_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<DefaultPlayerColor>PLAYERCOLOR_GREEN</DefaultPlayerColor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_CIVILIZATION_AZTEC</ArtDefineTag>
<ArtStyleType>ARTSTYLE_SOUTH_AMERICA</ArtStyleType>
<bPlayable>1</bPlayable>
<bAIPlayable>1</bAIPlayable>

<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TENOCHTITLAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TEOTIHUACAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TLATELOLCO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TEXCOCO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TLAXCALA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CALIXTLAHUACA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_XOCHICALCO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TLACOPAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ATZCAPOTZALCO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TZINTZUNTZEN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_MALINALCO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TULA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TAMUIN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TEAYO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CEMPOALA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHALCO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TLALMANALCO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_IXTAPALUCA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_HUEXOTLA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TEPEXPAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TEPETLAOXTOC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHICONAUTLA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ZITLALTEPEC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_COYOTEPEC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TEQUIXQUIAC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_JILOTZINGO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TLAPANALOYA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_TULTITAN</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ECATEPEC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_COATEPEC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHALCHIUITES</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHIAUHITA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_CHAPULTEPEC</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_ITZAPALAPA</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_AYOTZINCO</City>
<City>TXT_KEY_CITY_NAME_IZTAPAM</City>


 
:lol:

Wait, let me see if I understand.

Somewhere in the game files, there is a barb city named Teoihuacan?
And there is also an Aztec city named Teotihuacan?

I think our mapmaker is beyond evil :satan::devil::satan:
 
:lol:

Wait, let me see if I understand.

Somewhere in the game files, there is a barb city named Teoihuacan?
And there is also an Aztec city named Teotihuacan?

I think our mapmaker is beyond evil :satan::devil::satan:

The info is stocked in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml.

We still can doubt it is intention to put a city barb there. Being third in the list and considering the BFC quality (4 foods and gold tile), it simply might be a natural barb city spawn.
I think putting right away a city will stunt the AI...look at these jaguars roaming around doing nothing to take down two minus archers. :eek:

Mansa just sux...


Oh wait. Is there a city called Teoti-thingy amongst fake Monty's city?
 
There should be. He has six cities, and Calix is the sixth name in the list and it is size 1.

You must be right. I don't see how the map maker would manage to delete a single city name to induce wrong assumptions. Sorry for the stupid question, but I didn't dare to open the real save yet given I did some changes in my CivilizationIV.ini file for the useless python test. :confused:
 
It is probably just a coincidence that the barb city name is so close to an Aztec city name. I am simply feeling frustration with how well the Wizard seems to be hidden.
 
I am simply feeling frustration with how well the Wizard seems to be hidden.

I'm happy about it - if it will take Physics to find it, then our strategy synergizes and we don't have to fear drafted muskets + galleons + trebs/cannons beating us with Conquest. We are decently placed to tech through to Flight for paratroopers or Combustion for destroyers if that is what is required.
 
I'm happy about it - if it will take Physics to find it, then our strategy synergizes and we don't have to fear drafted muskets + galleons + trebs/cannons beating us with Conquest. We are decently placed to tech through to Flight for paratroopers or Combustion for destroyers if that is what is required.

Hmm...are you saying what Sun Tzu said about paratroopers might be right...?
In other words, the winner of this SGOTM passes through a technological race...making war-oriented decisions early killer factor for competition if not handled well.
 
Question:
Eastern witches are pushing their EP points up. Most of our points are going to them to stay ahead of their research.
After stealing from Elizabeth, we are far from being able to see her research.

I suggest we wait for the infiltration, which is probably 10 turns away.

I don't want to touch the slider, but...

Should I put the slider up for one turn all on Elizabeth? It will cost 50 gold at 50% reasearch to put us at 160 when she is at 153.
 
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