SGOTM 14 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Something odd on the Victory Conditions screen (at least I don't recall seeing it before). We haven't met anyone yet. but Conquest VC shows eliminate 4 rivals and 4 rivals unknown. Does this suggest that we are in permanent war with 4 rivals? :confused:
Or does that mean we're facing 4 teams of 2 AI each? IIRC this was one of the ideas mentioned in the "thoughts for sg14" thread. Easy to test in a custom game.

Setting screen shows Flat Map (no world wrap) and Low Sea Level.
Hmm, maybe that jeopardizes the chances of Culture being the fastest finish.
 
Demographics
If you aren't already familiar - http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/demographics.php
and http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/tech_research.php

GNP
With no Creatives about, we can make some assumptions about this.
A typical leader, like ourselves, would get 2:culture: and 4:espionage: from palace, so subtract them from the GNP value to give total research. We are producing 12 total research, which is consistent with 8 :commerce: from palace + 1:commerce: from tiles + 1 bonus, summed then multiplied by factor of 1.2 for having a prereq tech to AH.

There are two ways to reach 21: get 4:commerce: from tiles, ie city tile + a financial civ working an oasis or something and researching a tech with prereq bonus of 1.2. Or, get 2:commerce: from tiles and research AH having both prereq techs for prereq bonus of 1.4.

The rival worst of 16 is simply any civ working basic tiles and researching a tech with no prereqs.

In summary - I don't think any of this GNP stuff helps! :lol:

Mfg + Crop Yield
These are all pretty typical. Doesn't look like anyone started with preimproved tiles.

Soldiers
Lowest of 13000 and Highest of 22000 suggests there has definitely been some tinkering.
Recall, power ratings:
Techs: Archery = 6000, Hunting = 2000, Mining = 2000, Wheel = 4000, BronzeWorking = 8000.
Units: Warrior/Quechua = 2000, Archer = 3000, Bowman/Skirmisher = 4000.

All AI on emperor level start with at least Archery, Hunting and 2x Archers = 14000 minimum. The lowest AI here has 13000 :hmm:
The highest has 22000. Mansa Musa can reach this, as he starts with Mining + Wheel and has Skirmishers, for a total of 22000.
The rest of the bunch average out at 18000. This is typical for any AI who starts with the Wheel tech. But given its an average it could also imply Babylon is in (total of 20000) and another AI starting with Mining instead of Wheel.

So if we were to take this as fact, ignoring the anomolous 13000 for now, then we can say for sure:
1. Mansa Musa is in (what personality he has is TBD)
2. Almost all AI start with The Wheel. These Civs are Arabia, Babylon, Byzantium, Egypt (witch!), France, Japan, Mongolia, Ottoman, Sumeria.
3. At most 1 AI has neither Wheel or Mining. These civs are: Aztec, Celts, Dutch, Greece, HolyRome, Incan, NativeAmerica, Persia, Spain, Zulu.

Speculating as to the 13000 - it could be that the Wizard is just a single unit with no Settler, and has had some starting techs removed.

Land Area
As C63 notes, no border pops on Turn 3, so Creatives are unlikely (unless their on a tiny island of course).
This rules out: Catherine (witch?), Gilgamesh, Hatshepsut (witch?), Kublai Khan, Louis XIV, Pericles, Sury, WillemVO, Zara.

Approval Rate
This is real easy. Rival Best and Worst is 83%. This means only one thing.
There are No (0) Charistmatic leaders.
This rules out: Boudica, Brennus, Churchill, Cyrus, DeGaulle, Hannibal, Napoleon, Washington.

Life Expectancy
Not really anything to be learned here. Improved health could mean an Expansive leader, but just as easily that they've settled next to fresh water. None are particularly high. One poor sod has zero bonus health.

My Predictions
Based on starting with the Wheel, not CHA, not CRE, I predict the following are in the game:
Mansa Musa
Hammurabi
Justinian (Buddhist or Hindu founder?)
Tokugawa
Genghis Khan
Mehmed
Suleiman (looks a bit like a Wizard?)
+ 1 more. My guess is Isabella (Buddhist or Hindu founder?)
edit: Saladin also possible. (Buddhist or Hindu founder?)
:lol:
 
Very nice analysis, adrian!
I'm away from the game so can't check in WB right now, but my BTS reference pdf says the following about Emperor level starting bonus for the AI:

AI: extra Scout, 2 Workers,
2 def. units, 2 free techs

I believe the 2 techs are archery and another random one, not necessarily Hunting. That might explain the 13k power issue.
 
Quechua is the same power as a warrior (2000), but for the purposes of a Defensive Unit - it will still be replaced by Archers provided they have Archery tech. At least that is my understanding.

Scouts have no power rating. Same as Workers. The free techs are definitely Archery + Hunting (check Civ4handicapinfos.xml).

As far as I can tell, the only possibility is makmakers tinkering. But that is to be expected for an SGOTM. In fact, I think it is so expected that my entire analysis was really just for the fun of it! Safe to say no CHA is a certainty though. And no CRE is a very high possibility - it would be very unusual for a creative civ to not gain any new land tiles on turn 3, however with some map tinkering this is also possible of course. (eg, on a deserted island)
 
The 4/4 thing must surely be that the AI are in teams. I'd expect this could be tested quite easily by starting up a new custom game.

We have some really great land, really close to our capital. I think we should settle this land ASAP, sacrificing pretty much all of our surrounding forests for the cause. Would a tech path of Mining -> BW -> The Wheel be the fastest way to go about it?

With the gold + gems we should be able to expand quite rapidly while keeping the economy afloat.
 
I think the 4/4 thing is that there are 4 witches in the game (2 good and 2 bad). We might be locked at war with the 2 bad and locked at peace with the 2 good, so we sort of know them already because the diplo between us has been changed in WB. The good witches might be a team and the bad witches might be a team as well.

If this is a case, conquest becomes very hard (I remember there was a trick to getting a locked into peace AI to declare on you from SGOTM1 but can't remember and it may well be a dubious tactic at best. Domination (still might be impossible if the 2 others have too much land) or diplo/culture might be better options.

Although if we're not locked into peace with the good witches, then disregard all of this ;)
 
4 Rivals and 4 Unknown + US =
Scarecrow, TinMan, Lion, and the Good Witch, US, Bad Witch, Oz, and 2 baddies?



Since we haven't met any neighbors yet, I really want to try and get 2 workers out very soon. With 2 workers we can chop out our 1st settler very quickly instead of whipping it, saving the pop to keep building since we will also have 4 improved tiles in that time.

Agreed!

If we are indeed isolated, and since we are Philo, will have stone, marble (ivory and gold also) for wonders/cathedrals, would Culture be an option for the fastest finish?
We'd still need some firepower to kill the wizard, though.

There are very nice sites for other legendary cities, besides the capital.
With the current map, I like:
city 2: PH 1W of stone (also gets crabs, oasis, gold and rice in BFC)
city 3: grass 1S of pigs (also gets clams, gems, incense, 2 silk in BFC)
city 4: 2S of fish (also gets ivory, oasis, FP, shares 2 silk with city 3)
cities 5 & 6 to be determined, but should go S near deer and marble.
Our warrior survived 2 battles, maybe we should upgrade him to woodsman I?

I agree with the above.

Good job, McA! :hatsoff: Renaming the Capitol MunchkinLand will surly strike fear into the hearts of our AI opponents, causing several to capitulate early! :mischief: I like it! :lol:

Good Turnset Mc!
 
Nicely searched around McArine. :goodjob:

And how many resources!!!! As mentioned lots of potential city sites. Looks like stone/gold then pig/gems should be settled asap. Both would need a border pop so early myst jumps up the list a bit.

Looking at the map itself it looks like we are on an edge so no heading east. Probably coast to the South and West. Looks like a jungle belt to the North and unless that carries on we might find were isolated.

One very slight worry is being given archery. Does that mean we are going to find a horde descending on us early?

Now comes the fun bit deciding where to head from here.

Any thoughts on what to improve first. I'll need to play around a bit with the test game. Cow first speeds up getting warriors our but delays growth to size 2. Corn first speeds up growth and only 1 turn to get to the cows. Sheep first wastes a worker turn or 2 to get to the corn/cow so I would prefer to pasture the sheep with a second worker.

Culture as a victory option. Certainly we could plan towards it but the problem might arise when/if we have to use a high end tech to reach the "Wiz". i.e Para's or nukes. Then again I can't see the AI possibly killing him before hand if they needed the same techs
 
Sheep 1st is definitely better IMO. Besides the same food as the corn, it gets us 2:commerce: which speeds up mining by a turn. The timing actually works very well if you improve the tiles sheep>corn>cows while building part worker>warrior to get to size 2, when sheep is ready>finish worker>then finish warrior1. The second worker goes to the riverside plains hill and mines, and then both workers chop forests into our 1st settler at size 4. If I remember right there is a 2nd warrior in the que to get us to size 4, but the settler is ready to march about T40.

I'm going to run through it again and take better notes.
 
Im going to be away till Sunday pm so please drop me down roster 1 or 2 spots. I agree with PH site by gold and stone for second city site but would like to explore more before nailing down any others around gems site.
 
I have updated the test save. Here is the 4000BC starting save and a save played out to the current position.

@MD...done

The Roster order for the Misfit Gypsy Nuts for SGOTM 14 is.....
1) McArine - just played
2) Mighty Dwarf - in the hole/on deck....depends on the next set time frame
3) Ronnie1 - UP NOW...got it!
4) Sleepless - on deck/in the hole....depends on the next set time frame
5) Ozbenno - waiting
6) da_Vinci - waiting
7) Jericho Hill - waiting
8) Grifftavian - waiting
9) ngraner42 - waiting

Advising only as of August 10th

Adrianj
Conquistador63
JonShaw
 
More testing done!

I tried the corn>cow>sheep order and got some positive results. The completion of the cow times better with the growth to size 2 and the switch back to the worker. But the downside is that there is a 2 turn delay in completing BW, which leads to a delay in chopping. This isn't even real bad at this point, but where the difference really shows up is on the second settler. The second setter in this scenario can be 2 pop whipped on T44, which is pretty good, until you compare it to the sheep 1st scenario when the 2nd settler completes on T44, with NO WHIP!

I chose to NOT switch to slavery until the 1st settler was in route, as it is not needed for the settler, so we might as well wait.
 
I'd like to point out, that Toto arrived with 2 xp, he have yet to fight any battles.
Sorry for not mentioning this in my report.

Hmm, intriguing. No animals appeared or you were able to dodge them?

I don't want to seem paranoid, but...
  • we got a promoted starting warrior,
  • we got the archery gift,
  • the "4 rivals left, 4 unknown" issue, implying we could be locked at war with some AI
  • "good witches and bad witches out there, so watch out!"
Are those issues strong enough to justify building a warrior before starting on a 2nd worker? What if a wandering enemy archer shows up in the next few turns?

Probably not a likely scenario, but I wanted to share these thoughts.
 
Pre-Play-Plan T14-T24

BUILD QUEUE
Capitol - Worker, switch to warrior when Sheep are ready, switch back to worker at size 2(T24 start of turn)

EXPLORING
warrior -continue counter clockwise looking for more food by gems!

UNIT MOVES
warrior above

WORKER ACTIONS
improve sheep > improve corn

CITY MM
Tile use -size 1 > Sheep (pasture when ready)
size 2 sheep pasture + spices(T24 only)

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Hopefully none. I'll play nicely with the other children if I have the option.

STOP CRITERIA

Reach start of T24
Anything weird, especially if we might react to it.

OTHERS
Research: Mining > BW
Civic change: none
Religion change: none
Cities settled: none

THINGS TO DO EVERY TURN

Make a saved game
 
The 4/4 thing must surely be that the AI are in teams. I'd expect this could be tested quite easily by starting up a new custom game.

I also thought so and tried to set such a custom game. I wasn't able to assign teams from the game setup menu. I entered WB and was able to set some AIs to a war state with the player. Going back to the game, it was like we already had contacted them (names on the scoreboard) and declared war on them, unlike the situation in this SG.

Something more esoteric should have been done editing WB text files, but I have no clue on how to get started to simulate this scenario. When I get back home I might load WOTM20 and WOTM33 where we and/or the AIs were teamed up to see how the victories screens looked like...if somebody doesn't beat me to it. :mischief:
 
I could start an Archer in stead of a warrior to grow to size 2 if we really think we may be in danger early. I don't think we are set to "always war" as that would show in the settings screen I believe. And if we were "manually" set to war we would already know the opponents right?
 
Nice PPP Ron :)

Priorities at the moment are still very generic early game things, eg, getting workers/settlers/defenders out ASAP.
Pre-Play-Plan T14-T24
MM Stuff
Spoiler :

BUILD QUEUE
Capitol - Worker, switch to warrior when Sheep are ready, switch back to worker at size 2(T24 start of turn)

EXPLORING
warrior -continue counter clockwise looking for more food by gems!

UNIT MOVES
warrior above

WORKER ACTIONS
improve sheep > improve corn

CITY MM
Tile use -size 1 > Sheep (pasture when ready)
size 2 sheep pasture + spices(T24 only)
I'm going to leave the MM in this game to those with more game access than myself.
DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS
Hopefully none. I'll play nicely with the other children if I have the option.

STOP CRITERIA

Reach start of T24
Anything weird, especially if we might react to it.
Could be a little more specific with some of the "wierd" things. Eg, meeting an AI might be a good excuse to at least take a pause.
OTHERS
Research: Mining > BW
Civic change: none
Religion change: none
Cities settled: none

THINGS TO DO EVERY TURN

Make a saved game
I like the tech path - fastest access to chopping I think will be our fastest mode to expansion.

I also thought so and tried to set such a custom game. I wasn't able to assign teams from the game setup menu. I entered WB and was able to set some AIs to a war state with the player. Going back to the game, it was like we already had contacted them (names on the scoreboard) and declared war on them, unlike the situation in this SG.

Something more esoteric should have been done editing WB text files, but I have no clue on how to get started to simulate this scenario. When I get back home I might load WOTM20 and WOTM33 where we and/or the AIs were teamed up to see how the victories screens looked like...if somebody doesn't beat me to it. :mischief:
Odd. Has the Team option been removed from the custom game screen for BUFFY games perhaps?
Other options are to fire up BtS without BUFFY on and try that way, or modify the WB file. This isn't actually so hard to do, as it's just a text file and IIRC there is a single number in there specifying what team a player belongs to.
At the end of the day, things will become blatantly obvious when we start meeting AIs.

I think giving us Archery may have been a mistake.

This post seems to make it feel as if it was an oversight....http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10771144&postcount=15

The 4/4 thing sure doesn't mesh with the "Opponents: 8 AIs". It seems like we must be up against 4 "teams" of 2AI each.
It does seem odd that Neilmeister didn't mention it.
I could start an Archer in stead of a warrior to grow to size 2 if we really think we may be in danger early. I don't think we are set to "always war" as that would show in the settings screen I believe. And if we were "manually" set to war we would already know the opponents right?
I believe you are correct that if we're at war we would already know it. It might be possible the bad witches have a very large negative diplo mod with us though.

I'm not overly concerned with our defenses at the moment. Judging from the Demographics Soldiers count, none of the AI have any more units than they would have in a normal game, so an early attack seems very unlikely. It's possible there are powerful barbs about, but I'm not a fan of slowing ourselves down because of a slim possibility.

Once we have Bronze Working and eventually switch to Slavery we will have all the emergency defence we need. I think stick with warriors for now.

Upgrading Toto to Woodsman sounds smart. Or would we prefer to use the upgrade to help heal after a battle with an animal or something?
 
The Buffy Mod doesnt allow you to assign teams in the custom game option, I know this as I went through a phase of playing team games.

As already mentioned an Always War setting would be mentioned in the settings screen and I cant imagine a situation where a team could get wiped out by a civ turning up on their doorstep tied into war with them unkowingly be considered for an SGOTM. It could be the case that the diplo has been modified to make it harder to tell who is a potential friend or foe but I dont see any more immediate threat than the usual barbs.
 
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