SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

[shyuhe]

@bbp - how far do you plan to play the next set?

 

[babybluepants]

To literature, I think. Still tweaking some things...

I just played out to 250 AD, just to get a sense for it. Got Astro and Eng at that date, with also 8 WE, 4 Cats, 2 galleys and stables in all of Wash, Ivory, Pigs, Stone and Silver (Gems is a bit behind). I did get a GS from Gems. Otherwise, I'm not sure if Eng is possible so early.

There was some struggle to keep with growth in Pigs after 400 BC, but generally workers are fine. That's without Calendar improvements until about 1 AD, though.

Also, I think we can decide on where the southern Washington forest is going later. I have it chopping in time for TGL, with Bridge City just settled.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I would aim to build Stables after our initial rush attack, giving us more units in the first wave. That decision is still a ways off, but other than that, things sound pretty good.

The sooner that we can make our first attack, the sooner that we can get momentum. City-capture Gold is a great way to temporarily fund research and/or upgrade units (such as a couple of Galleys to Galleons).

I would take the time to build Barracks in most Cities before the initial push, since City Raider I on a Catapult can be quite helpful, but probably no Stables, or at most 1 stable before the initial attack, with the aim of building a couple of stack defending Combat II or Combat I + Shock War Elephants, depending upon whether we're facing enemy War Elephants or Spears/Maces.

I.e. I think that we should aim to launch an attack before Astronomy comes in, or at least have the troops prepared to set sail on the turn after Astronomy comes in and the Galleys have been upgraded into Galleons.

 

[babybluepants]

I guess I was mainly testing the run to Astro and gpp. It's possible to build a lot more troops by that date. I don't think building galleys will make much sense, as it will be easier to get hammers than upgrade cash. Ideally, we have a stack for Asoka and nearly completed galleys at the Astro date, then just whip some Galleons quickly.

 

[shyuhe]

Two thoughts:

(1) If we have war success against one member of a two member team, will the other member not give us a peace treaty even though we're winning against his partner?

(2) If we're going to go phantapult on Asoka, why wait for galleons? It's only a difference of a one turn voyage or two turn voyage from Bridge City to Asoka's shores when comparing galleys and galleons. Is it just that we'll want trebs before engaging them?

 

[ZPV]

First of all, I'm a little snowed under at the moment. Freshers' Week and Saturday Lectures should never ever have to be mentioned in the same sentence, ever. I can't really do a lot of testing for a couple of days, at least.

Two thoughts:

(1) If we have war success against one member of a two member team, will the other member not give us a peace treaty even though we're winning against his partner?

(2) If we're going to go phantapult on Asoka, why wait for galleons? It's only a difference of a one turn voyage or two turn voyage from Bridge City to Asoka's shores when comparing galleys and galleons. Is it just that we'll want trebs before engaging them?

1. War success is a team thing. I don't believe the refuse to talk threshold resets when one member of a team dies though.

2. I'm in favour of that kind of early strike. As soon as we can land a small-medium stack of elephants outside Bombay, I'd do it. We can mop up the other cities later.

 

[babybluepants]

I can play through Literature tonight or tmr morning, if there's not much to discuss.

Cities:

Spoiler :

Washington

Settler - Granary - Barracks (part) OR Research - TGL
Lose corn for 4t to Marble - doesn't slow down the settler. Hire two Sci when settler is complete. Grow to 7 at 475 BC when Lit is finished. It is 2 Sci turns behind when it starts TGL, so work all mines and hire 1 Sci to complete GS.

Gems

Warrior - Settler (2pop whip) - Library (part) - WB - Library (2pop whip) - WB

Pigs

Library (2pop whip) - WB - WB - Settler
Hire 1 Sci at pop 4 and 1 more at pop 5. Warrior from Silver City site gets here at pop7 growth.
Alternative is to have Ivory build its own WB, and use the Library OF on settler, which speeds up Bridge City by about 6t. It slows down Ivory builds, but also its growth by 1t.

Stone

Granary - WB
LC was using some hammers in building the granary. I thought I'd just focus on growth initially, but now I'm thinking his way is better. I don't get to work gold for a few turns, which could potentially mean Lit 1t earlier (500 BC), especially if we get Alpha and Washington can build research for a turn. Not sure that's possible and we're not in a huge rush to build TGL (I mean we're talking about giving up one forest).

Ivory

Monument - Granary - LH
Again, an alternative would be WB before LH.

Marble

Granary - Library
I'm borrowing the corn for 4t. Start working marble at 500 BC, just before pop4 growth.

Silver

Monument (chop) - WB

Canal

Granary
Gets a WB from Gems at growth to Pop2.

 

[babybluepants]

(2) If we're going to go phantapult on Asoka, why wait for galleons? It's only a difference of a one turn voyage or two turn voyage from Bridge City to Asoka's shores when comparing galleys and galleons. Is it just that we'll want trebs before engaging them?

In principle, sure. The sooner, the better. I think this may be a matter of just being able to build the troops on schedule. We don't finish HBR until about 200 BC, and we can only have 3 barracks done by then. Secondary cities will be behind by a bit. I wouldn't necessarily whip Washington, Pigs and Ivory, since they are all pretty awesome at pop 10. With some tighter MM, we could probably bulb through Astro by 200 AD, so approx. 15-18t after HBR. Eng is the same turn as Astro, btw, assuming we get a GS from Gems.
Edit: I don't really know, I've only run one test so far.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

So, where are we settling Silver City? On the DesH (slightly better for a potential National Epic) or 1N of the DesH (better for Moai Statues).


What's the plan for moving the Warriors around the chokepoint?

What sorts of triggers/events do you see causing you to shift them around? For example, would you push some of them outside of our borders before our Cultural Borders expand? It might not be a bad idea to do so if Barb Cities' Cultural Borders can't spawn-bust like other players' Cultural Borders can. It might also be nice to have visibility from the GHFor square. Of course, we'd lose 1 Gold per turn by pushing our Maginot Line out sooner than our Cultural Borders expand in the area.


You list whipping acitions, but do you have a record anywhere of which turns you will whip? It's not too hard to remember a build order when something isn't whipped without knowing which dates are involved, but reminders of dates for whipping timing are generally quite important.


Similarly, do you have date-based or turn-based reminders for yourself about other actions that have to happen at certain times, such as hiring or firing Scientists or switching which squares get worked by a City's citizens?

Ivory
Again, an alternative would be WB before LH.

It depends upon what the Work Boat will be used for. If you're talking about a City building a Work Boat for itself versus a Lighthouse, the Work Boat will win out by far (except for in rare circumstances which don't appear in our game).

If it's a Work Boat for a different City, then you need to know more about the bigger picture to decide. For example, a Work Boat could give +2 or +3 Food while a Lighthouse for 1 square would only give +1 Food. However, a Lighthouse for 2 squares gives +2 Food and a Work Boat that gets netted but where the square isn't worked for a while provides +0 Food.

 

[babybluepants]

So, where are we settling Silver City? On the DesH (slightly better for a potential National Epic) or 1N of the DesH (better for Moai Statues).

I really don't see that much long term difference between the two, and getting the pig right away is just better. So, 1N of DH for me. Would everyone agree?

What's the plan for moving the Warriors around the chokepoint?

LC said that there weren't any barbs between gems and our scout. I'll trust that and assume that we can complete the choke point in time. I'm planning to chop the Canal forest into Gems, so I'd move 2 warriors out for 1t ahead of the worker, just to make sure there's no barbs. Then drop them back for a turn, while Gems borders expand, then back out, as we're settling Canal.

TBH, the extra lost coins from having them further out don't slow down Lit at all, so I'd be ok with just moving two out of borders the whole time, if you guys are.

You list whipping acitions, but do you have a record anywhere of which turns you will whip? It's not too hard to remember a build order when something isn't whipped without knowing which dates are involved, but reminders of dates for whipping timing are generally quite important.


Similarly, do you have date-based or turn-based reminders for yourself about other actions that have to happen at certain times, such as hiring or firing Scientists or switching which squares get worked by a City's citizens?

You mean so I don't forget or so you can evaluate? I'm still gonna do a couple of test runs, so I might make some reminders for myself later today. I always sweep all cities every turn, so the only thing I tend to sometimes forget is canceling worker actions. I'd make reminders for those.

It depends upon what the Work Boat will be used for. If you're talking about a City building a Work Boat for itself versus a Lighthouse, the Work Boat will win out by far (except for in rare circumstances which don't appear in our game).

If it's a Work Boat for a different City, then you need to know more about the bigger picture to decide. For example, a Work Boat could give +2 or +3 Food while a Lighthouse for 1 square would only give +1 Food. However, a Lighthouse for 2 squares gives +2 Food and a Work Boat that gets netted but where the square isn't worked for a while provides +0 Food.

The WB is for Ivory. The trade-off is primarily in Ivory getting LH few turns sooner and growth 1t sooner or getting Bridge City settled 6-7t sooner. Either way we don't really lose seafood in Ivory, since we have to wait for border expansion anyway.

 

[babybluepants]

Ducks score and power are climbing in the 500's BC...

 

[Dhoomstriker]

You mean so I don't forget or so you can evaluate?

More so that you don't forget, but possibly for others to evaluate. I'll be leaving for vacation shortly and won't have Civ access, possibly even no internet, so I won't be able to help evaluate.

Ducks score and power are climbing in the 500's BC...

Oracle Civil Service, build The Pyramids for a Great Engineer, Lightbulb Machinery, early Maces, forget Galleons and just use Galleys, go to town against AI Archers... that would be my guess. They could fit Construction in there, too, as then they likely aren't going for early Aesthetics + Literature.

They probably kept their Toto alive and may have met many/all of the AIs by now. They might go for a slightly delayed Literature, though, if they managed to get 8 Experience Points for Toto for their Heroic Epic.


Instead of building The Pyramids, they could have self-teched Metal Casting and used an Engineer for a Great Person, if they could do it fast enough to beat the Oracle's Great Prophet (which is feasible if they also got a Great Scientist first).

 

[babybluepants]

Here's the full plan:

Spoiler :

T81 850 BC
Worker 2S of Ivory moves to sheep and roads 1t.
Worker SW of Ivory moves to FP and farms 1t.

T82 825 BC
Cancel worker action at sheep - move to desert and road 1t.
Cancel worker action at FP - move to GH 1SW of Ivory and chop.
Worker W of Ivory chops.
Worker at gold roads rice.
Worker 2S of rice roads 1NW.
Worker at Marble completes chop.
Pigs whips library.
Gems takes over gems for 1t.
Marble takes corn, Washington works a plains forest.

T83 800 BC
Cancel worker action at desert - move to hill 1W of Gems.
Worker at Marble moves to other forest.
Two workers at Ivory farm FP.
Two workers farm rice.
Ivory starts LH.
Pigs starts WB and works gems.
Gems works PH mine for 1t to sync warrior completion with growth.
100% research for 2t.

T84 775 BC
Go into worldbuilder and delete the barb archer 3W of Gems.
Warriors in the north shift 1NW and 1SW respectively.
Worker 1W of Gems roads.
Worker at Marble chops.
Pigs starts another WB. Current WB sits 1NW of Pigs.
Gems starts settler.
Stone grows and works oasis+stone.
Pigs grows and hires 1 Sci.

T85 750 BC
New warrior completes the block at Gems-2W.
Worker at rice moves to desert hill.
Warrior moves 1S of DH and heads towards Pigs.
Stone works rice+stone.
0% research.

T86 725 BC
Worker at Marble completes chop.
Worker at rice mines gold.
Worker at DH moves to PH forest.
Workers at Ivory mine GH 1SW of city.
Warrior from sugar moves to Canal site to check for barbs.
Worker at Gems-1W moves to Canal site.
Warrior from Gems-2W moves 1SW.
Washington completes settler. Start granary, hire 2 Sci, re-take corn.
Marble grows and works newly netted clam+grass.
Pigs grows and hires second Sci.

T87 700 BC
Worker at Silver chops.
Worker at Marble moves to marble.
Worker at Canal chops.
Two warriors drop back into borders.
Marble completes granary, starts library.
Ivory grows and works FP+GH.
100% research for 1t.

T88 675 BC
Worker at Ivory-SW moves 1SE and roads for 1t.
Other worker moves to Ivory-NE.
Worker at marble quarries.
WB moves from Pigs-NW to clam and sits.
Gems whips settler.
Pigs unhappy for 1t. Can be fixed by using the first rice worker to mine gold instead on T85, which slows down Silver by 1t.
0% research.


T89 650 BC
Cancel worker action 2S of Ivory - moves to Washington PH.
Worker NW of Ivory mines.
Worker at Canal completes chop.
2 warriors move SW.
Settler moves to Canal site.
Silver settled, start monument.
Worker at Silver completes chop.
WB moves 2N.
Gems starts WB.
Pigs happy again, works silk forest.

T90 625 BC
WB moves 2N.
Worker at Silver pastures pig.
Worker at Canal roads sheep for 1t.
Worker at gold moves to Washington GH.
Worker at Washington PH mines.
3 Warriors move SW.
Canal settled, starts granary.
Gems completes WB, starts library.
Silver completes Monument, starts WB.
Stone grows and works rice+stone+oasis.
80% research to complete Aesthetics.

T91 600 BC
Cancel worker action at sheep - pasture sheep.
Worker at Washington GH mines.
WB moves to Ivory-NW.
WB nets Canal clam. Canal works clam.
Gems grows and works PH mine.
Pigs takes the Ivory GH mine for 1t to sync growth with WB. Ivory works grass.
0% research. Start Literature.

T92 575 BC
Pigs starts settler, working silk forest.
Ivory works fish+oasis+FP.
Marble grows and works clam+2grass.
Stone works rice+gold+stone.

T93 550 BC
Worker at Ivory roads PH.
Stone starts WB, still working rice+stone+gold.
Pigs works clam.
50% research. Lit due in 3t.

T94 525 BC
Worker at Washington-NW roads.
Worker at Silver moves to silver.
Ivory grows to 4 and works silk forest.
Ensure that Marble is working 2 grass (governor switches to marble at this point).
Washington completes granary and starts on barracks. Work lake instead of PH.
Gems whips library.
Canal works sheep.

T95 500 BC
Worker at Canal roads sheep.
Worker at Washington GH moves to forest.
Worker at Silver mines.
Worker at Ivory camps ivory.
Gems starts WB.
Marble works marble.
Silver grows and works lake.
30% research to complete Literature.
At this point, we could also slow down the Bridge settler by 2t and take over wheat in Gems.

T96 475 BC
Worker at Washington chops.
Worker at sheep is done. Could go for a chop or mine the GH 1E of Canal.
Washington starts TGL, working all 3 mines + 1 Sci.
Stone completes WB, starts library, working rice+clam+gold.
Gems grows. Could hire Sci, but I don't think it's necessary yet.
Marble grows. It should work another grass for 3t, then whip library.
Ivory grows. Probably works PH mine now.
Start Construction at 0%.

 

[babybluepants]

Could they have just Oracled Construction again and gone into elepult mode earlier? Also, they probably avoided the barb city by having Toto guard, which would allow axe+cat. How did you conclude CS Oracle?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Great detail on your PPP, bbp. Some interesting ideas in there I'm going to study. See if I think of any suggestions.

EDIT: Very interesting. You've a number of things differently than I, giving me some ideas. I'll work on them and try to get something written up before you wake up SUnday morning.

One interesting detail is that you work the 2h In Pigs on T81 instead of 1f2h, thus NOT growing to pop5. Counter-intuitively, this is BETTER than growing to pop5!!!

 

[babybluepants]

One interesting detail is that you work the 2h In Pigs on T81 instead of 1f2h, thus NOT growing to pop5. Counter-intuitively, this is BETTER than growing to pop5!!!

Easy. I started testing by chopping all the forests and never realized I have a 1f2h with your worker actions. :suicide:

How is it better? You have happy issues later or something?

 

[ZPV]

Easy. I started testing by chopping all the forests and never realized I have a 1f2h with your worker actions. :suicide:

How is it better? You have happy issues later or something?

Growing pop 4 to 5 costs 14 food.
Growing pop 2 to 3 costs 12 food.

If there isn't a tile better than 3 food for citizen #3 to work to make up the remaining 1 lost food and the extra maintenance (which there isn't), then the 0f2h square will be better.

 

[Mitchum]

I've been busy lately. We're in the process of buying another house. Hopefully things slow down soon.
PPP looks fine.

 

[babybluepants]

@Mitch,
As in, you're gonna own multiple houses or you're moving?

Growing pop 4 to 5 costs 14 food.
Growing pop 2 to 3 costs 12 food.

If there isn't a tile better than 3 food for citizen #3 to work to make up the remaining 1 lost food and the extra maintenance (which there isn't), then the 0f2h square will be better.

Ok, thx. That makes sense.

I could play in a bit, but no one's really approved and LC hasn't checked back in, so I'll hold off for now.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I could play in a bit, but no one's really approved and LC hasn't checked back in, so I'll hold off for now.

I couldn't get to it earlier, but I'm here now and hopefully I can work on some ideas. The thing is, we want to get 2 sci asap in Marble and Stone and I'm trying to optimize that. Maybe 1popping the granary in Marble. Maybe Silver building the Stone wb. Stuff like that.