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SGOTM 14 - Phoenix Rising

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Aug 3, 2011.

  1. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Bulbing paths:

    We need to be very careful what techs we trade for!!! Firstly because we may end up with the GS route taking us through optics instead of edu! I think bulbing nationalism can also be affected by taking certain tech routes. What techs do we need to avoid to make sure our bulbing strategy works??

    I got to 640ad and my GS were teching everything apart from edu and lib. Quite frustrating.

    Also with 7 cities our tech slider will be on about 20%. Again we need to be careful here.

    City prioirity builds. The sheep and copper city needs workboat and a border pop. So monument/ workboat builds?? or hope the Ai spread a religion.

    Gem city needs granary and perhaps a workboat for sheep city. With a light house the lake is 3f. It could also use an irrigated grassland too.

    stone city needs granary and perhaps a slow built worker. 5 turns?? Perhaps settler and wb for silver city?

    Marble city. Needs 3-4 grassland farmed. Plus 1-2 mined hills.

    Defences - We will certainly need 2-3 more archers. The chances are the barb city will send out a archer in next 10 turns. Washington currently has no defenders.

    We certainly have a lot to think about.

    Note I have updated the test save and my 2 previous posts!


    Okay to ensure Liberalism bulb we must avoid machinery and theology at all costs. Theology would allow a printing press bulb. Machinery
    Link to GP preference

    Great Scientist: (edited list by me!)

    Writing
    Mathematics
    Education Key bulbing tech
    Printing Press Avoid theology in trading!
    The Wheel
    Alphabet (BTS)
    Philosophy - Need maths and COL Key bulbing tech
    Chemistry
    Optics -
    Paper Key bulbing tech
    Astronomy
    Compass -

    Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)
    Calendar
    Iron Working
    Metal Casting
    Engineering
    Liberalism Key bulbing tech
    Machinery (Avoid till liberalism bulbed)
    Gunpowder
    Meditation
    Drama
    Theology
    Music
    Civil Service


    So the key to bulbing is avoiding Theology as we don't want PP!
    Avoiding Machinery so we don't miss liberalism bulb.
     
  2. Jaybone

    Jaybone Emperor

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    Gumbolt, we don't need to avoid iron working because the next tech downstream from IW is Compass, not optics. Compass is lower priority than paper or philosophy.

    Also, I would just wait for library in copper city. I figure its build order will be granary, then library (work the copper once it comes online until sheep or cows are up)
     
  3. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yep IW is not the problem. Theology and Machinery are the main issues. I will update the above post.

    In terms of testing. The NE is a pain in many ways. I popped 2 GA on my testing. 3 if you count music.

    Putting NE in the Gems city is not a bad idea as it would allow a 3rd/4th city to generate a great person.

    A monst in capital is not a bad idea. At 620ad with closed borders i am 4 turns from curs (4T off gunpowder). (albeit no iron)

    Main issues I faced was lack of city defences. That barb spear may well return. Barb archers from barb city is a big issue.

    Growing our capital is very important. I could of tried for a few merchants but I did not try this.

    Do we need this 7th city???
     
  4. Kadazzle

    Kadazzle Emperor

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    I still can't access the game or my computer, so until I buy a new computer I don't think I can contribute whatsoever this SGOTM. I've been visiting different universities now and life's been pretty hectic. Sorry guys, I trust we'll finish well and I like where we are. I agree that more multipliers in the capital is a good thing, but make sure to balance it out with expansion. Defenders can be built elsewhere.
     
  5. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Guys Lymond is skipping but will be back in 1-2 turnsets.

    Kadazzle good to hear from you. Hope you get a pc soon.

    Sooo up to me to make a plan.

    we face 3 main hurdles next turnset.

    1. Lack of defences. Where to build archers! Capital? Stone city? NY?

    2. What to do with GE. At present I am 100% build the Glib to snowball scientists in our capital. We don't need MC. Settling is average and the Great light house is V risky.

    3. Where to build NE. In gems city or capital? Tempted for capital but those GA are a pain.

    4. What to do with tech trades? Trade Aesth now or tech alphabet and hope it remains with 2 Ai. Who do we trade with?????

    So capital
    Finish granary, archer (Focus production for 2-3 turns), Glib, NE? Run 2 scientists when not building archer.

    Gem city - Finish granary, archer, workboat for sheep city. Try for a GS here before washington. Could be close.

    Sheep city. T1 switch to monument/granary

    Copper city - Switch to monument/granary/workboat. Perhaps switch those 2 round.

    Worker- Finish copper/ cows/sheep and pray the spear stays away. Send archer from sheep city to here in case.

    Stone city - granary/archer/ worker.

    Marble city - finish granary.

    My main concern is we have no defenders in Capital or Gem city. On plus side we can see what units are in the barb city.

    So workers.
    Work farm near wash and marble city. Send one to chop a forest near stone. Another to work deer. Maybe the 5th to chop for one of the archers. If NE in capital I will use 3 workers to chop forest for NE.

    I have no plans to whip at present unless it is going to take a build from 20 turns to 1.

    Overall this plan is based on a bulbing strategy possibly going towards curs.

    Lets have some thoughts on this plan.
     
  6. bobbyboy29

    bobbyboy29 I was saying boo-urns...

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    I'd like to see at least one worker being built in this plan, copper site needs two workers over there really to make those pastures. Also I think we should get a settler out soon for pigs/fish. Probably the last city we'll build, it's worth building if we do it soon.

    1. Your plan for archers looks good. As for the GS. I'd get one out from topeka, then it can stop running scis for a bit to focus on hammers if necessary whilst gems city runs 2 sci's.

    2. You are 100% for rushing TGL, I'd just like to say that I'm 100% against. (Nothing personal of course ;) ) Honestly, I just see no reason to rush a wonder that we're guaranteed to get already, especially when the benefit is only about 10 turns of having 2 extra scientists, we can get that benefit already by, say, running 2 scientists for ten turns ;). I'm very confident that sailing will get us international trade routes, or at least we'd get them anyway. Like I've said previously, GLH isn't a big risk at all, we'll get sailing anyway, then it's just 1 turn to whip a lighthouse and 1 turn to rush it, yes whipping stone city again would hurt a bit but the wonder would far outweigh that cost. Even if GLH goes, I'd much rather settle the GE (3 extra beakers thanks to rep) as I see the benefit of rushing Glib as absolutely marginal.

    3. I'm happy to build NE in the cap. Pollution is annoying yes but I think it's a risk we have to be willing to take. In past games I feel that we've gone too conservative with these types of choices and that's been a contributing factor to us finishing middle of the pack. Now I'm willing to say, let's go for broke!

    4. We've put so many beakers into alpha that we may as well tech it first and then see what we can get for it with the other civs. Prioritise trading alpha first with the teams that don't have it yet so that aesth retains it's value as a monopoly tech. Prioritise getting maths, IW, sailing and poly (IW probably isnt THAT important actually, maybe even nab hunting) in those tech trades. After that, I think we have to leave it to your discretion.
     
  7. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Just a quick note without taking either side, Glib would mean NE is a must in the Capi cos that would be the point of it.
     
  8. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    NE has to be paired with TGL so wherever we build TGL there will go NE too. Btw that means if we rush TGL with GE we could place the TGL in city you want the NE, not reverse (building TGL in strongest hammers and forcing NE into that spot - aka capital).

    I am with bobby on the use of GE. 100% against rushing TGL.

    The case of alpha... I would shop aesth for the rest of alpha+bunch of techs. I think you could have checked already what's on table and provide some feedback on this (no reason to everyone unpause game and risk some unwanted hit to game, like happened to OSS few games ago)

    I like your thinking of archers. I like bobby's thinking about at least 1 worker in your TS (and 2 workers around copper).
    I will try to merge this 2 views... let's grow sheep to 4 for 1T, start worker and OF into archer. That way you should have 1 archer in sheep and 1 worker in sheep in around ~5 turns.

    I would have liked to grow capital more before Lit arrives, but I can see the concern with having at least 1 archer and finishing granary.
     
  9. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Looking back both jay and mylene were against the great light house. I think lymond is against the idea too. Not sure what he favours instead.

    A 2 pop whip for a light house with no granary would hurt the gold city. It needs the granary. Loss of gold too. Plus you want to build a settler there too? would we need to gift techs for open borders?

    Overall the engineer would provide a snowball effect and free up over 14 turns for h gardens or other builds. Ne 14 turns earlier. 1-2 GS much earlier.

    Not sold on this.
     
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Further thoughts.

    If Topeka ran 1 GS it could complete granary next turn and push for a archer in 3-4 turns. The 6 science is useful but ultimately I would like to get a GS from the deer gems city in 10 turns. Then Washington would follow quickly after. Currently Topeka takes 8 turns but we need another archer asap.

    Granary in Deer/Gems will take 15 turns! The alternative here is to add a mine for 4 hammers. 8*7 +1*4 would get the granary much sooner. Then allow Topeka to get the GS. It could also build the archer instead of Topeka.

    Looking at the marble city. The marble is 6T from completion so we can't irrigate 2 grasslands. Shame really.It could also slow down the chopping of forest for G lib or NE. Tough choices here.

    If we could afford 2 workers for copper I would like to chop out a workboat for exploration. The warrior exploration would be danagerous.

    As for a worker. I think if we chop the granary in stone city we could try a worker after this.

    If you want to whip a light house somewhere I am not sure where to do it. It would delay city builds somewhere.

    Can we have some thoughts on how good or bad settling the engineer is? I suspect it's yields would fail to make a great return in our capital as we will be running many specialists anyway. Any thoughts on these further ideas?
     
  11. Jaybone

    Jaybone Emperor

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    Again, I highly disagree with trading aesth for alpha and stuff. We may be able to get the same for alpha in 2 turns that we could for aesth now. Plus, getting alpha opens up several good techs like math that we might lose if we traded it and while waiting a turn to get alpha eligible techs the ai tech brokered it. Patience.
     
  12. Jaybone

    Jaybone Emperor

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    Oh btw, can a ge bulb engineering? And what's it's order of preference. Engineering will be key layer for road movement
     
  13. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yes but machinery is the key tech to avoid for liberalism bulb. The Ai always go for engineering anyway. I suspect we can back trade for the tech. It will be a cheap tech later on. Plus saving a GE for 50-60 turns seems a waste. We need to use him soon. I would like to save a 2nd ge for TajM nationalism wonder. A free golden age would be great.

    I can see your points on alphabet, assuming no further Ai tech it soon.

    Jay what is your thoughts on GE use??
     
  14. Jaybone

    Jaybone Emperor

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    what's the yield for settling a great engineer? Not sure of the hammers/turn. Honestly, I'd save chops for GLib and build it in like 8 turns, and I'd rather just try to capture GLighthouse by targeting whoever builds it. They're such low hammer wonders it seems a waste. If we settle the GE he starts paying off immediately and helps our buildup immensely, I'd say 4h/turn or more and its worth it, especially with burea adding 50% to that

    Also, for tech rate we could consider chopping into Parthenon and then letting another civ build it for fail gold
     
  15. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    We are somewhat late on GLH and foreign trade routes. We could capture GLH but getting foreign trade routes could be tough if the Ai fail to open borders.

    My big concern at present is lack of direction. We should focus on our key objectives and not try to be clever. For me main objectives are to grow cities and abuse great people and bulb to curs. Where does a settled GE/ Great light house fit in here??

    Main issue with settling the GE. You will need a lot of hammers to build NE and Glib in cap. 8-9 turns on Glib with 3 chops. 9 turns on NE if we work 2 mines. This will have an impact on our capitals growth. 3 chops on NE builds almost half of it allowing our capital to grow and NE is done in about 5 turns? So Glib and NE in 6-7 turns? Compared to 18 turns with GLH or maybe 15 with settled GE?

    My testing up to 300bc showed the difference was marginal in terms of reaching COL. The difference comes when you have 1-2 more GS much sooner.

    So what to do??? Whichever way we choose could make or break our game. Bit like the gold city last game. Fun fun fun.
     
  16. Jaybone

    Jaybone Emperor

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    because i don't see a big difference from the GE and there's nothing to bulb and it's low hammer builds, I'd favor settling. He gives 3h/turn (upgrade to 5.25 with burea and forge) and 7.5 beakers/turn atm, so it's 10.5 production/turn basically, which is pretty decent
     
  17. stuge

    stuge Emperor

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    Hey I'm back. Life got sort of hectic around the weekend.

    About the GE: I'd go for rushing TGL. It may not optimal play, but I think that it fits best into our gameplan. Getting TGL & NE up 10+ turns earlier gives us a big boost in beakers and GP points, the latter being one of the most important things long term.

    Or we could rush MoM and forget about bulbing, instead using GPs to try and run a continuous GA. ;)
     
  18. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    So we have at least 2 in favour of GE on Glib. I think Mylene suggested this idea and prefers it to light house. Lymond I think also backs this.

    2 in favour of the light house approach. (BB and Vranasm)

    1 in favour of a settled GE. (Jaybone) BB was in favour if we skipped the light house.

    Overall we need to get this game going.


    Looking at PD latest power graph they have not started building an army yet. Although their score is 60 more than us. hard to tell if they traded for tech yet. I suspect they have at least 2 wonders.

    @ Stuge. The continous GA is probably a bad thing. Firstly you burn 1/2/3/4 great people for average returns. Can a golden age provide 1600-1800 beakers extra?? Nope!

    MoM is a nice wonder but it will provide limited gains by the time it arrives. 4 extra turns come 200-300ad will have limited use. I would rather get hanging gardens for the extra 7 pop and chance of a GE for TM (Nationalism wonder).
     
  19. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Looks like i should explain the GE thoughts a bit further ;)

    The problem we face here is: normal game vs. rush (sgotm).
    Would i use a GE on TGL in a normal game with marble? Probably not, i'd expect that economy after some wars is important. GLH is the perfect wonder to cover all that in 1 big package, and i wouldn't be worried too much about whipping a 2nd/3rd city to get a normal lighthouse.

    For the rush..i don't expect that we have time or the need to look much at our economy after we start rolling out.
    We also won't win a beauty price for a nice and fluffy empire of ours ;)
    What we need is the unit of choice, and we need it fast.
    The plan we seem to be agreed on is bulbing to Curs, correct me if that is not clear please.

    Sooo...we should focus on that goal above everything else.
    If we use a GE on TGL and this enables us to "suddenly" start generating GP points and the most important GS points in 1 turn, iam all for it. Add that we can use the chops for NE to further leverage this, and that Rep. simply means the more scientists we have the quicker we get to the next techs.

    A settled GE is not a bad thing, far from it.
    But again, in a normal game. Here our capital will switch to working food and specialist 90% of the time or even more after NE stands, and then we put in a Golden Age and switch to Caste.
    So we would have to think along the line "what will the hammers actually do for us in this city".
    The whole principle of this is starting a snowball as fast as possible.
    Now we would have the chance as soon as we got Literature, that's why i support a TGL rush :)

    We had another important discussion about trading for Alpha.
    I think we might have missed that train, if we are only 2 turns from researching it ourselves now this is a very difficult decision (for me at least).
    Iam close to thinking it doesn't change much either way.
     
  20. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I will do a final test on light house and Glib approach and then post a final plan tonight.

    I will try to play on Friday. I have a birthday meal tomorrow that I am apparently required for. :king:

    I think whatever i do someone will flame me for making a choice they don't like but as the captain I need to ensure this game moves forward too. I want this team to do well.
     

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