Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 14 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.
You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.
Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.
Summarized Team Rules
Read the various Rule threads.
Check your ini files so that autosave is set to every turn.
No reloads from previous point, ever!
No reading of other team threads. The best way to resist temptation is to use the Subscribed threads tool under quick links! Similarily, do not download other team saves.
When looking at the save, do not perform any irreversible action! You can't trade, whip or move units.
If the game crashes, stop and pm AlanH with details of what happened.
Wait for instructions.
Suggested:
Save often manually
Do stop if an opportunity becomes available or something goes wrong.
Pause the game before uploading/examining it.
When testing the game, make sure you're using the test game! Markers will be added here and there to help.
Let us know when you can't make a deadline or RL becomes busy.
A few notes of etiquette:
1. Active participation -- Your contribution to every set is important, even if it's a 'I agree'. Although everyone might have real life issues sometimes, it's courteous to notify the team of you absence.
2. Plan of playing -- The spirit of SG is to play the game following the consensus of the team decision. Therefore the player who is UP should post a clear plan for discussion. Guidelines have been posted for the contents of your plan in the next post. It might be that the team decides to head in a direction you were opposed to, it does not mean you are wrong but rather that the team believes the odds of winning are more likely with the decided approach.
3. Timing -- In the pre-thread we agreed to use the following as upper bounds for discussing, planning and playing the set. Since the game cannot last forever, it is important to respect these in order not to be rushed to finish the game later on.
-24 hours for 'got it' and pre-play-plan [0~24] - Make sure you can open the save before saying 'got it'.
-24 hours for discussion and first plan draft[0~48]
-24 hours for edits [24~72]
-24 hours to play [72~96]
Please keep in mind those are upper bounds, meaning if a consensus is reached before the time is fully elapsed, the set can proceed ahead.
Once again it would be greatly appreciated if you can warn the team, either in this thread or via pm, of your absences so that we do not have to wait for a consensus or skipping. You will be skipped if you cannot meet the time frame.
3a. Please include a report when you submit the save. You may submit your report later but it would be preferable to have it before the discussion on the next set starts.
4. Do not automate workers without first discussing with your team.
5. Do not use city governors without first discussing with your team. Or at least if you do, check cities every turn and remove the governor at the end of your round.
6. Do not leave units on goto orders that extend beyond your set of turns. If for some reason this happens, then be sure to inform your team as to what the unit(s) is/are going.
7. Finish all your discussed turns and upload the game saved at the END of the discussed part.
8. Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style, accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.
9. SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your corner and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in your game thread. That is what it's for.
10. Have fun and QUACK!!!
How a set will be played
There are 7 major parts to every set.
Pre-Play-Plan: see below.
Voting: everyone voices his opinion on the issues raised in 1.
Plan: see below.
Critique of the Plan: once the Plan is posted, players should try/read the plan and look for anything they'd like to change. This is where you must support your arguments!
Final Plan: tries to glue everything together.
Play the Set: see below.
Post the Report: see below
What is the Pre-Play-Plan?
The Pre-Play-Plan is to initiate the discussion on the diverging possibilities at the start of a set. This includes, but not limited to, EP focus, general city micro, general worker micro, general techs. Basically, make an idea of what you want to do with your 10/15 turns.
In the spoiler below are general ideas as to what you can cover with the pre-play-plan. Not everything needs to be discussed, only the obvious decision points.
Spoiler:
1. Technologies
What techs are you aiming for? (One, a beeline ex. Literature, part-research for trading)
What trades will you attempt with who and when? (When to sell for gold ex. first opportunity or wait for more, specify the leader(s), waiting for a wonder to finish so the AI get failure gold)
Are we planning a Great Person bulb?
2. Dealing with AIs
Resource trade negotiations
Espionage assignment
Open borders (cancel or allow)
AI demands (resources, cancel trades, who do we send packing or not, technologies, war, religions, civics)
3. City placement - mostly in the beginning
Where are you planning on sending a settler?
Are you sending a worker along?
Is the land fogbusted/do we have an escort?
Initial city builds (Monument/Granary etc...)
Tile improvements around this city(food, hammers, commerce)
4. General micro
Special tile assignations (starve city for specialists, switch to growth etc.)
Tile swapping with other cities
Whips
Build order (infrastructure/military/settlers/workers/wealth/science)
Dealing with happy/health caps
Worker improvements and moves
5. Civics and Religion
Are you planning on civic switches/do we need to acquire the techs? (Caste for border pops, slavery for prod...)
Are we expecting a religion change?
6.War - if applicable
Refuse/accept AI war demands
Bribing civs to declare war or for stopping war
War plan (who, how many units and how to acquire them , which cities to strike, scouting prior to DoW,...)
7. Bigger picture
Gifts (city, gold, techs,...)
What AI do we try to please
Goals for the future
Diplo manipulation
Extras
What your plan should cover:
The plan must contain 2 detailed parts:
1. What you will check for every turn (EP, trades available, GPT available etc.) [this is easy]
2. Turn-by-turn worker moves, city micromanagement, unit movement and or general guidelines as to what we can't control via test game. [this is the hard part]
The team might at one point decide to slack on #2 once the game becomes well in hand.
How your set should go:
Play according to the plan
If something unexpected (or an opportunity) comes up, STOP AND CHECK WITH THE TEAM.
If you have to adapt, do so!
You can add markers in game during and at the end of your set. It's a lot easier on team members to figure where units are going.
If something unexpected comes up, you can (and possibly should) stop and make a short report to the team so we can decide how to move ahead
~~~~
What your set report should cover:
WHEOOHRN alerts and possible/likely targets
GGs in distant lands and Great Engineers
When to renegotiate trades
What you were planning for the future
How the plan worked out/didn't
Anything unexpected
Another option is to turn on the auto-logging and upload the autolog file.
Some thoughts about the grand strategy and the opening.
I. Astronomy -- My guess is that >95% chance it's necessary for the victory, otherwise this game become a repeating of SGOTM13 with 3 more opponents to be wiped.
II. Victory type
1. Domination/Conquest -- From the result of OSS in SGOTM13 ~700AD + 10~15 turns to wipe 2 more AIs and OZ + 10~15 turns due to Normal Speed - ~10 turns of more productive map (plenty of forests available for chop) . ~1000AD victory seems a reasonable date.
2. UN diplomatic victory -- We did it on 930AD in SGOTM11, which was a very friendly map. In general, ~1000AD victory would be an outstanding achievement.
Therefore, it's hard to determine now and even when we get Astronomy. However, the strategies to play these two different victory types have to be determined much earlier than when the situation become clear. My personal preference is military victory, mainly because it's easier to control.
III. How many AIs can be reached without galley and galleon?
1. I would be surprised and more interested if this is a map of isolated or semi-isolated start. It not only increases the difficulty level, but also demands a new way to deal with this unusual situation. In this case, planning the fastest way to have caravel and galleon online is the 1st long term goal. As Dorthy is philosophy, it's not difficult to have it done ~1AD with the lightbulb of some GS.
2. There're a few AIs on the same continent with us. Usually, I will harass 1 or 2 neighbor AIs for free workers and more available land. Unless AIs' capital is very appealing, I won't consider a full war effort to take the city in early stage. Having Astronomy online is still a goal with top priority, but the game become more complicated since you have to make a balance between war and development. In this case, military route has clear advantage.
IV. Wonders
Oracle is a must. Mids could be quite helpful if we can connect the stone early enough. Representation fits well with phi leader. GLH is questionable if we decide to go the military route, but may be helpful if there are enough foreign trade routes.
V. The opening
1. Capital site -- 1W seems obvious, it might hide a strategic resource, but the sheep tile is far better
2. Tech path -- AH and then BW
3. Build -- Worker->Warriors
I. Astronomy -- My guess is that >95% chance it's necessary for the victory, otherwise this game become a repeating of SGOTM13 with 3 more opponents to be wiped.
Why is it important to think about the need of astro now? Does it affect our initial tech path in some way? Why not wait and see? (Or did you only express your guess which will not affect our play?)
1. Domination/Conquest -- From the result of OSS in SGOTM13 ~700AD + 10~15 turns to wipe 2 more AIs and OZ + 10~15 turns due to Normal Speed - ~10 turns of more productive map (plenty of forests available for chop) . ~1000AD victory seems a reasonable date.
2. UN diplomatic victory -- We did it on 930AD in SGOTM11, which was a very friendly map. In general, ~1000AD victory would be an outstanding achievement.
Therefore, it's hard to determine now and even when we get Astronomy. However, the strategies to play these two different victory types have to be determined much earlier than when the situation become clear. My personal preference is military victory, mainly because it's easier to control.
Your date estimates are really impressive, I like them . And if diplo and military victory can be achieved approximately at the same date, I vote for the military one, ...
Oracle is a must. Mids could be quite helpful if we can connect the stone early enough. Representation fits well with phi leader. GLH is questionable if we decide to go the military route, but may be helpful if there are enough foreign trade routes.
1. Capital site -- 1W seems obvious, it might hide a strategic resource, but the sheep tile is far better
2. Tech path -- AH and then BW
3. Build -- Worker->Warriors
- we need to carfully consider where we settle. the early turns are crucial here, since the map was designed "to offer various starting locations with different boni"
- oracle: cheap and usefull on emperor, so i guess yes
- mids: not my favorite one, so better wait and see
- overall strat.: war seems best. reason has been mentioned before, diplo is harder to control
- units we use: i would love to go with mounted, but usually cata+xy is best
- astro: scouting will tell. if we are with some ai on our landmass, it has also be considered to NOT beeline astro but to get our conti first, then beeline astro (-> might result in faster teching)
...
-> my favorite would be 2continents with us + 2-3 ais on our continent, rest on the other continent. would result the most interesting...
-> winning date: hard to tell right now. lot depends on the map layout (=difficulty). with an easy map, 1000 AD would be too late, with a difficult map, it could be too early, so (but it´s good to keep that date in mind)
1. yes, if you want to bulb towards astro, you have to stick to a very strikt techpath with a lot of restrictions (or you cant bulb it)
3. not really. it depends on when the earlier wonders + relis go to estimate better the oracle date. but since its very cheap it usually pays off (its only emperor and we might get something like currency/feuda out of it)
4. might need some sims to tell... ...so no comment so far (oasis in first ring is also something great for exemple)
...
-> if i find time, i might provide a first testmap this we so we can start the sims. if not, i will let you know in advance, so someone else can do the testmap...
Bad news first : Internet access on my vacation location is a disaster. I can only use my smartphone and even then the network is mediocre. So until the 14 I will probably have to keep my posts short. I'll still be reading everything though.
@Deity : If I'm not mistaken, figuring out whether we need Astronomy right now is important because early astronomy is usually achieved by bulbing, so Gp generation nd planning is of the essence. Plus Astronomy obsoletes important wonders which are much less desirable if you beeline Astro.
Other issues worth raising:
- what is the nature of Oz (one-city civ, super unit) and what difference does it make?
- Random personalities? How do we manage diplo, and is there a way to identify them anyway? I've looked into the xml variables and my conclusion is there are only a few Ais that can be easily identified. But maybe I missed some things.
For Oz, we probably want to send some explorers overseas early, to make sure we know what we're up against. (assuming that we don't find Oz on our own continent)
It could make a huge difference. If Oz cannot be killed with Renaissance weaponry, for example, our victory dates may need to be adjusted somewhat. Other than that, I'd say it's pretty hard to adjust for a completely unknown entity.
Worst case scenario, Oz is a hostile unit a few tiles from our capital and everyone who goes worker first auto-loses.
Isn't the wizard kind of a coward in the original tale? I'm feeling a hostile unit right from the start is unlikely.
I'm more leaning towards a single city (Emerald city) , but probably concealed in a way that presents a challenge.
Also got money on needing Astro but I think we should approach this about the same way we did SGOMT13: expand and leave doors open.
I'm guessing that Oz is a barbarian unit that's in a remote location and that would be quite difficult to take out with Catapults, for example. Maybe a Machine Gun so that Diplomatic attempts aren't too forced to go military techs. Maybe hidden behind an AI (for example Tokugawa-type).
My first feeling was Domination as well just because it's easier to deal with Oz this way and you don't need so much tech.
Oracle: for sure. Freebie can be anything that will be useful, also depending on our tech rate. CoL would be the standard freebie for PHI.
Mids: I don't know, maybe if we are isolated or if there's a ton of food, they just cost so much even with Stone - I'm guessing there's a marble around as well for cultural victories.
GLH: probably not that good here, I'd say the better city spots are inland.
Random perso: with Military, this becomes easy. I've not played around much with this option so I don't know if the F4 screen gives information or what.
I otherwise agree with Snaaty about starting location - 1W looks good on paper but it's pretty hard to tell without actually trying it out. If there's copper or horses then we'll be losing 2-3H/t which isn't the end of the world when you gain 3F.
If anyone has time to put together a test map and try out the various spots, feel free to do so and report back
Goal is fastest expansion + Oracle into good tech.
Given that the apparent best capital site is 1W, is it better to move the warrior before moving the Settler 1W? Warrior W, SW, S reveals nothing new. NE, E, or SE reveal mostly water tiles. N is on a hill and so beats NW.
So, if the warrior moves first, it is 1N, but since moving the settler 1W will reveal the entire BFC of the 1W site, I'm hard-pressed to say what we'd need to see from the warrior to *not* move the settler 1W. Whatever is N of the warrior is likely to go to a later Crab City anyway.
The only other thing is if 1W with settler makes us consider settling on the forested plains hill 1S of the Sheep, but it seems unlikely that a 2H capital is worth giving up cow and wet corn. Especially since we'd be moving there blindly.
I don't know if it will help much to run tests before getting more map info.
I'm going to propose a roster so things look more official than SGOTM13.
Let me know if you're not happy with it (want to be switched around), if you think you will be lurking or whatever.
1. Duckweed - our opening specialist
2. Compromise
3. obsolete
4. LeftAdjoint
5. Snaaty
6. Bebekija
7. Deity Player
8. kossin - assuming I have free time by this point
If you are successful, then you are set for this game. Please take time to quickly read through the administrative blahblah in post #4, it can get stuffy in here after a few months.
If you can't load the game,
Spoiler:
first visit this page. Follow the instructions and paste the results either in this thread, or the Maintenance Thread. I will try to upload the needed files ASAP or maybe the staff can assist you faster.
If you are using Windows7 or Vista, visit this page for suggestions that worked for others.
Finally, if all else fails and you still want to participate, uninstall Civ4, delete all folders (even custom assets, etc.) then reinstall. Install the BUFFY mod again and try to load the save.
If that is still unsuccessful, retrace your steps up to here and be sure to let the game staff know, they are way more knowledgeable than me in this.
Remember to set your autosaves to every turn: My Games>BTS>Civilization4.ini
; The maximum number of autosaves kept in the directory before being deleted.
MaxAutoSaves = 50 Or whatever number you'd like here, just make sure it's larger than the number of turns of your set.
; Specify the number of turns between autoSaves. 0 means no autosave.
AutoSaveInterval = 1
Also, no one gets to play before a plan has been accepted by the team. Early on, this might mean every mouse click you will do has been pre-established but by end game it will generally be very broad.
Finally, I'd recommend you save manually every turn as only manual saves are allowed to be loaded, and it can be useful for going back and seeing when an AI goes WHEOOHRN for example.
P.S. I'm sure obsolete will be saddened to hear this one, but the staff kindly asks everybody to avoid the flying camera for this one. In any case, it's not looking helpful here
Well they kindly ask to avoid flying camera, that doesn't mean that they said we can't! Haha.
Though to be honest, I never used it before... but I may just try it to see it work!
One thing that gets me, is how EVERYONE seems to be missing the most obvious point about the Wizzard. It is most likely his castle is in the mountains, meaning the only way to kill him is by paratrooping over the mountains and attack him that way. Nukes or anything else isn't going to do it.
As for worker stealing, I'm usually against it unless I'm charismatic, but on Emperor IIRC you can actually steal a worker, and in a few turns they are already not just willing to talk again, but even make peace. I don't think you can get that kind of luxory on immortal even, can you?
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. And if diplo and military victory can be achieved approximately at the same date, I vote for the military one, ...
(but it´s good to keep that date in mind)
