1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

SGOTM 14 - Plastic Ducks

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Aug 3, 2011.

  1. mabraham

    mabraham Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,027
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Actually all GOTM rules apply to SGOTM - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439.

    See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3540014&postcount=1 for this particular rule. So they may be heading for an unexpected fall...
     
  2. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,000
    Location:
    Pangea
    The rule is a bit unclear, one could make a case that going into Anarchy for 3 turns (should be the default time for switching just 1 Civic in an Empire that big, if iam not mistaken) is okay ;)

    I would change it into "no periods of Anarchy are allowed to avoid strikes".
    I agree with Bebe and disagree with Dhoomstriker, it's the price to pay for an early rush.
    If it's allowed while "creating" negative gold, that's bad for other teams who try to avoid it.
     
  3. mabraham

    mabraham Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    4,027
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Yeah the wording looks like they're OK for a first revolt, but a second one too soon if they can't pay their maintenance should prove to be a problem for them.
     
  4. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    I think this is rather clear with the playing guideline. If you're in strike, you can't keep revolting to avoid losing units, you are required at minimum 4 turns of non-anarchy between each revolt.

    The 4-turn period was never reviewed/modified as far as I could see.

    And this is my interpretation: the rule reduces the effect of the "exploit" to 50% efficiency. You revolt for 4 turns, then you lose units for 4 turns, rinse and repeat. It's actually quite generous.
     
  5. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    23,280
    Location:
    UK
    They will be fine! They are not even running wealth. They are planning to mass produce cheap units anyway. They have a golden age to use but this would stop any civic changes. They will have a shrine out of revolt soon.

    Would Alan ban a team for using continual strikes??? Warn maybe first??
     
  6. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    I would imagine using an exploit would be ruled in the same way as reloading and replaying which means disqualification (i.e. not being considered a valid entry).

    They are in a rough spot but they can get out of it for certain.
     
  7. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    4,000
    Location:
    Pangea
    Yip it's the game that is far too generous with strike mechanics.
    Logic would suggest the most experienced troops, being on the frontline for the longest time, would disband when not getting paid instead of a new warrior hanging around ;)

    I think in previous Civ games, unit hammers have been converted into gold to pay the deficit.
    That was a real and honest punishment ~~
     
  8. yatta77

    yatta77 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,041
    I'm sorry for spamming your thread with those egoistical questions, but since I see your content staff badge, and since the Damocles Sword I can see over my head atm, I dare to ask you:

    1. From your experience those decisions are usually taken and communicated right after the fact happens or at the end of the competition?

    2. From your experience, it ever happened before that only a single member of a team was disqualified? I mean what if a member of a team does (for its stupidity) an action (like missing to upload a file) that brings the (unaware) rest of the team to do another action to be disqualified for, but the team itself doesn't get any advantage from it, and ever after the rest of the team still not even aware of that first fault until the members who did the first action realizes the fact and points it out? I mean, what fault has the rest of the team in this case?

    3. From your experience, is there in some cases any advantage taken rule (I mean no advantage, no fault)?

    4. From your experience, is there in some cases any good will rule (I mean no intention to cheat, no fault)?

    Thanks in advance for any answer. :)

    Sincerely, Jack.
     
  9. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    Sorry I am not involved in xOTM staff whatsoever so I'm only speaking out of what I've observed.
     
  10. yatta77

    yatta77 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,041
    Thanks for replying. Appreciated! :)
    Once again: Great Game Plastic Ducks! And really interesting reading! :goodjob:
    - yatta
     
  11. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    23,280
    Location:
    UK
    Looks like they could squeeze an 1170 win albeit in strike mode! There's only so many chariots a nation can build knowing the budget means they must be destroyed on completion.

    Perhaps you should of just gona all out in strike!! Looking at the wizard it took them nearly 15 mace!!! woah!

    This could still be close in terms of date and time.

    Okay now they are replaying a turn due to heavy losses and the pc freezing up. Shouldn't they wait for AlanH approval before doing this? Maybe in normal circs.

    Less than 1 hour to go.
     
  12. Bebekija

    Bebekija King

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    Messages:
    792
    Location:
    Paris, France
    :popcorn: :popcorn:
    Damn, where's Jack Bauer when you need him !!
    :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


    Like you said, maybe in normal circumstances, but I won't complain here, I'm sure LtC will do his best to retrace his steps, even though he's been playing for ~10 hours !!!
     
  13. Deity player

    Deity player Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    412
    Location:
    Home
    Their endgame is a very good show. They are doing very well, I almost wish they manage to beat us right now. :mischief:

    I have no problem with their replay in such a situation.
     
  14. Deity player

    Deity player Prince

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    412
    Location:
    Home
    Ups, I hope they won't be diqualified due to the time limit.:confused:
     
  15. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    The effect of our early REX is quite noticeable.

     
  16. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Congratuations on the Gold Medal!

    That's really a close win compared to the game of OSS, but we have to take into account that your game proves the feasibility of a crazy all-in strategy, which is indeed inspiring.

    The war part seems to have a great deal of details we can discuss. Concerning the strategy, I'm not sure if bulbing maths is the most cost-efficient way. Missing CS seems to make a difference as well.

    Anyway, go on warmonger ducks!
     
  17. kossin

    kossin Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2008
    Messages:
    9,572
    Location:
    Canada
    While bulbing Maths might be debatable in terms of return on the GS, there was clearly some merits to it, our early expansion and growth skyrocketed as a result.

    I wonder how early we would have been able to hit Mass Media with that... Oracle into Currency and try for GLH. OSS showed that with good scouting it was a pretty strong Wonder.

    A pre-1000AD win should be achievable on this map... either via Diplo or better warring than we did. For example, combine OSS's warring with our game and we shave a good 10~15 turns just from that. (granted AIs were very different challenges but they still did it much better)

    CS was not too important as it turns out, Bureaucracy wasn't super helpful as the capital wasn't stellar. Nearby Ivory meant War Elephants and a few XBows should be more than enough with Trebuchets.
     
  18. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    23,252
    As it turned out, we only revolted out of Bureaucracy for 3t. And that turned out to be a blunder. Shouldn't have revolted at all. We needed to stay in Slavery and Police Stase.
    After our first five CRIII maces, the Wizard's strength was ... 14. :eek: I started sweating bullets. Then the next three knocked him down to 0.1/14 (a little bit too good for my liking--didn't get to use our uber-unit).
    Imo, bulbing math was very powerful in this scenario. OSS did it also. Gaining CSS complicates the Astro bulb and Bureaucracy wasn't particularly useful. Even maces were far less crucial than the trebs from the bulbing path.
    We intentionally slowed down the AI research pace. I'm surprised people don't seem to be aware of that facility.
     
  19. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    23,252
    With all due respect, I'm surprised by your analysis. Both of you view your position as 15t ahead of ours. To me, saying that you started the war 15 turns ahead of us is a misleading comparison. In my view, the correct comparison is conquest versus domination VC. You seem to think both have the same time-paths. I think the domination-path should be 15-20t faster in this scenario, although it might start 10-15t later. The net result is a faster win.

    But the strategy for domination can be much different than that for conquest, as can be seen comparing our two games. We focused on slowing the research of our neighbors and creating an empire that could afford to keep cities. Starting warring somewhat later is preferable. Because we get the plunder benefits of older cities, more cottages to pillage, and fewer settlers to build.

    We debated building the GLH because we already assumed we were on a hub map with no islands to give 2cpt domestic TRs and that we would possibly capture it. We concluded that building it was better to slow down AI research. For the same reason, we never traded for Feudalism, despite the benefits of Vassalage. And we limited all our tech trading with our neighbors. This may have slowed down the onset of our warring, but the trade-off is a short war-path in terms of distance traveled and turns.

    Obviously both teams could have done better. (We missed the Oracle by 1t, which would have given us War Elephants 20t sooner to start our warpath even before you guys...that's part of the give and take of each game.) That's not my point. My point is that domination was the correct choice for this scenario because of the pair AI teams. That posed two problems: 1) DoWing one member of a team allowed the other to mobilize and 2) the hub map meant that the far western AI pair would be relatively advanced by the time the distance was traveled. So a faster path is to dominate because domination could be achieved by only conquering 2.5 AI teams (five spokes + hub was sufficient).

    We fully understood that the GLH slowed our expansion. We accepted that trade-off. We had time to expand before we got Astro (although I wasn't participating during that time, so I'm not sure how well we did that).

    So in your place, my analysis would take on a different color. The question I would ask is how much faster would you have won by domination, focusing on early expansion and Astro instead of GLH? To argue that you eventually captured GLH is a hindsight-hypothetical because you can't control who builds it. What you can control though, is how you maintain your economy and war efforts. Could you have won faster by domination than conquest? I'm curious, because for our team, I preferred the earlier expansion to GLH, considering the obvious 1cpt domestic TRs.
     
  20. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

    Joined:
    May 18, 2005
    Messages:
    23,252
    One detail I forgot to mention on the advantage of starting later: We conquer more cities, closer together, in a more condensed timeframe, the consequence of which is more cash-per-turn, giving us a war economy better suited to "staying green."
     

Share This Page