SGOTM 14 - Spooks

[Più Freddo]

Great start

One point behind klarius.

now if can just see the save

You're welcome!

 

[Più Freddo]

The corruption formula does only include the rank and distance

So low rank, large distance is similar to high rank, small distance. But low rank, small distance can't be beat.

 

[Paul#42]

One point behind klarius.

I bet he already bought that slave...

 

[Andronicus]

Ill bet Klarius maximised growth which we sacrificed to maximise commerce ... time will tell

Territory graph at 3000BC shows only Ivan with a 2nd town - it claims 10 tiles which suggests they settled 1SW or 1W of green dot, 1NW of cyan dot or brown or pink dots (latter 2 unlikely). By 2150BC Klarius (with presumably granary first) had overtaken Ivan in territory.

 

[Più Freddo]

I bet he already bought that slave.

We already did. We have two and no money. Must meet someone to get some more.

 

[Andronicus]

Got it

Had a look at the save

Things are looking good
Worker tasks
- worker 1 chops forest this IT giving granary in 1
- slave 1 completes irrigating wheat in 6 (2 turns till grow size 5, 1 cycle of 3 turn growth, then 2 turn growth at 5fpt)
- slave 2 connects wine in 12 turns which will help lux

Builds
per spread-sheet
- granary completes this turn with chop, then 2 turn warrior for mp / settler escort, then 4 turn SF

Research
writing currently 12 turns, spread-sheet indicates should come down to 11
spread-sheet shows phil next, my preference is to go CoL and try for the sling shot

Dot map
I expect the AI to ruin our dot map plans, so we will need to be adaptable.
I see 2 valid options for first settler
a) green dot - this one may be a now or never decision, I expect this spot to go first since there is crap terrain to north and Ottomen came from there and Arabs in our east (unless there are resources which the AI knows and we dont at one of the other sites). I favour moving it 1SW - we would settle a turn sooner (only 3 moves there) increasing our success probability, still 1 tile from incense and will be a powerful site out of despo with all those hills.
b) cyan dot - also likely to go soon, although Russia appears to have lots of good lands to settle. Again I would shift it, this time 1SE to be directly S of wheat - this puts it beside an incense that was previously in the fog. We would then backfill a closer one at Yilar's spot (2SE,1S of CC which I have called orange dot) later. This site has more moves to get there and will be sped up a turn once worker roads the ivory tile it is currently chopping. I favour this site 2nd.
c) 3rd option is to get a close town in earlier - either red dot, orange dot, or blue dot (? moved 1NW to be able to later share cow)

Barbs
F3 reveals currently barbs out there - my plan is to move warrior 1 turn ahead of settler to scout the land for barbs, also allows us to spot AI settler a turn earlier.

Finances
Currently 8g at -1gpt, I will need to borrow money unless can find AI to trade with soon. I intend keeping science as high as lux allows


I wont be able to play until 12 hours at earliest, hopefully we can decide on the 2 questions I posed

1) What to research after writing?
2) Where send first settler?

 

[Andronicus]

My suggestions in dot map

 

[Yilar]

1) Phil for lit or take our chances and go for CoL hoping one of the 20+ other civs didn't go writing first? I'm really unsure. If we go for lit we should build great lib and turn off techs. After we get phil.

2) Build on red. Doesn't matter which dot map you take, just plant on red first

 

[Andronicus]

1) Phil for lit or take our chances and go for CoL hoping one of the 20+ other civs didn't go writing first? I'm really unsure. If we go for lit we should build great lib and turn off techs. After we get phil.

Yes GLib is a valid strat here. Requires a site to build it - 400sh from our early powerhouse does drain us from military (and curraghs if red dot). I dont see any powerhouse site other than the capital, which I think would be a waste. Good probability of getting, but no certainty. Having taken phil and free lit we would be at the mercy of neighbouring AI demanding it - if we refuse we are hamstrung in defending as our 2 best producers will be on setter factory and wonder, if we cave in we risk losing out in a wonder cascade. The other negative in my opinion is the general slowing of tech pace as we wait for the small AI (remember this is a crowded map) to reseach techs. This is only DG level pelago map - with the area we can see, I would expect to outresearch the AI in middle ages and therefore get to cavs (and / or chivalry) sooner for earlier domination date. GLib has advantage of saving money for short rushing (+/- resource connect / disconnect upgrading, assuming iron ). This could be done to conquer the 4 AI on our starting island sooner.

The advantage of rep slingshot is 2 fold - firstly we get out of despotism earlier (who knows how long we would have to wait for AI to research) allowing much increased commerce either for money to rush builds or science to reach techs for better units sooner, secondly IMO we will reach the techs needed to win this game earlier. The risk is we dont get the slingshot if AI research directly writing philosophy. Some AI will research writing, many will be researching to poly or maths - going by my trial run, the AI wont research writing until after we would have got philosphy, I think our prospects of the slingshot are high (I'm guessing over 75% likely) and if we fail we can still research lit, at likely monopoly. IMO small risk, big gain.

2) Build on red. Doesn't matter which dot map you take, just plant on red first

Great for getting a powerhouse town up quickly with early curraghs helping get more contacts, but less chance of getting some of the prime land. I'm not totally against this idea however, as we can get those town sites back later . I see enough incense in differing directions that whichever we can hook up soonest is probably best. Both red and cyan have a food bonus tile (after irrigating) helping to speed growth which is a factor in favour of these.

 

[Paul#42]

Barbs
F3 reveals currently barbs out there - my plan is to move warrior 1 turn ahead of settler to scout the land for barbs, also allows us to spot AI settler a turn earlier.

You read my mind.

1) What to research after writing?
2) Where send first settler?

1) let's decide when we got Writing and see what our contacts got.
2) let's try for some difficult sites first - unless we see rivals early. Maybe the escort should not be one but four turns (send right after build) ahead?

 

[Più Freddo]

Worker tasks

Please note that there are some more Worker tasks in the spread-sheet. (Road BG3.)

The Settler Factory is a bit too big, since we have only 2 MP and 2 Lux. The 17 gold at size 6 only nets 16 at 10% Entertainment.

We could mine the BG and chop two Forests. Each Forest would speed a Settler one turn and the population would shrink to 4..6 instead of 5..7, which would allow us to run 0% Entertainment.

Only we need to build roads as well. We could build a Worker in the Capital.

warrior for mp / settler escort

An advantage with settling at Red first is that we don't need to send an escort, and then the new city would build a Warrior or two to function as escort. And we could keep research up. Otherwise we can forget the Sling-Shot.

then 4 turn SF

The second Settler takes five turns!

spread-sheet shows phil next

That was only as example, in order to be able to compare alternatives. We said we'd decide once we have discovered Writing, i.e. in Yilar's turn-set.

Currently 8g at -1gpt, I will need to borrow money unless can find AI to trade with soon.

Use that Curragh. There must be lots of islands, and they must all be inhabited. Look across the water, don't map the islands we already know. But stay on Coast on the last turn.

1) What to research after writing?

You won't play then. It's 10 turns only.

2) Where send first settler?

I'm for Red, see above.

 

[ControlFreak]

I agree with Yilar on founding red dot first. It can take advantage of the improved ivory when CC is not using it, will be founded a turn sooner than green and 4 turns sooner than cyan due to the long walk. Going to Red doesn't require an escort, and the city would be able to replace the MP warrior that will leave for escorting the second settler.

I would go for Green second just because the settler can get there in 3 turns instead of 6. Slaves should focus on roading from the wines to cyan to reduce the walk of the third settler towards Cyan.

EDIT: cross posted with PF. We said the same...

Lit/GrLib seems too risky for me. I'd rather focus on the Republic sling shot and if we miss, we still have many beakers towards getting out of despotism.

 

[Andronicus]

Please note that there are some more Worker tasks in the spread-sheet. (Road BG3.)

The Settler Factory is a bit too big, since we have only 2 MP and 2 Lux. The 17 gold at size 6 only nets 16 at 10% Entertainment.

We could mine the BG and chop two Forests. Each Forest would speed a Settler one turn and the population would shrink to 4..6 instead of 5..7, which would allow us to run 0% Entertainment.

Only we need to build roads as well. We could build a Worker in the Capital.

The problem we have with 4-6 turn SF is we need a BG mined.
Whilst awaiting the necessary shields we could slot in a worker between settlers 1 and 2 (delays settler 2 by 1 turn), that could chop a forest to speed settler 3 by a turn giving 3rd settler at same time but now operating size 4-6 and up 1 worker.
The downside is some worker inefficiencies as worker 1 would be required to road ivory after chopping, then move to BG3, mine it (completes turn 30 ready to go for 4 turn SF), then move to forest (leaving BG3 to be roaded by slaves as per spreadsheet) for 1 turn of chopping to assist worker 2 to get the chop timed with settler 3. One worker would then return to grass ivory to mine it so we can use higher commerce tile in settler factory config (and red dot can use wine and, when CC size 4, plains ivory.

 

[Più Freddo]

The problem we have with 4-6 turn SF is we need a BG mined.
Whilst awaiting the necessary shields

You misunderstand me. Let the Settler Factory develop as planned in the spread-sheet. Then, afterwards, we have the option to mine and chop in order to get settlers, say the third and the fifth, quicker and the population smaller. If we want to.

Perhaps the two Slaves should rather go on to road the next BG to the east and then the plains to the south in order to improve access to the lands in the SE, and the Worker road towards Red. That's what most people have suggested. I just wanted to suggest an alternative.

 

[Andronicus]

What about my suggestion?
Only settler 2 is delayed (by 1 turn) and we have an extra worker who can more rapidly assist in roading to future settling sites.
I think timing the worker and settler in with when we cant get sufficient shields for 4 turner makes most sense.

edit
Majority favour settling red dot first (denyd and markh haven't commented, Paul favours "more difficult" site), so red dot it is.

 

[Più Freddo]

What about my suggestion?

I think we would lose a turn on Writing.

 

[Andronicus]

Fair enough, I'll play now following spreadsheet with setter going to red dot

 

[Andronicus]

Progress so far I have paused because I dont think the spreadsheet makes sense

3000BC Pre turn
- all's well

IT
CC completes granary -> warrior

Turn 1 2950BC
Zulus have 2 workers (? settler) for sale - unfortunately we cant afford
(10gpt gets 1 slave and 50g - we then have 57g at -11gpt, even meeting new AI wont allow that)
curragh spots border - safe crossing to west of Celts
thanks to granary we now run -2gpt - with prospect of more contacts I hold off buying gold with gpt

Turn 2 2900BC
We meet Greece - trade WC for wheel + 10g
lux -> 20% due to growth

IT
CC warrior -> settler

Turn 3 2850BC
lux -> 10% due to mp
scout spots blue border in south (not sure if same island) - contact next turn

Turn4 2800BC
Scout contacts Babylon - they are down 3 techs and broke (lets hope they have some surplus workers)

Turn 5 2750BC
Curragh spots yellow border south of Greece (? another island)

OK we can now do 5fpt as wheat irrigates interturn, and build settler in 2 turns - spreadsheet says 4fpt to grow in 3 - I dont understand why so stop and pause (edit I suspect the spreadsheet was based on pre slave irrigating wheat).


Its nearly midnight so I'll complete turns in the morning

 

[Più Freddo]

OK we can now do 5fpt as wheat irrigates interturn, and build settler in 2 turns - spreadsheet says 4fpt to grow in 3 - I dont understand why so stop and pause (edit I suspect the spreadsheet was based on pre slave irrigating wheat).

You are right! Will you make a new spread-sheet, or should I? Perhaps there is an extra Worker in there, or Settlers one turn earlier?

Stupid of me not to notice this. But you see more when you actually play.

 

[Andronicus]

Thinking about this a bit I propose growing CC in 2 and building settler.
We will then be size 5 and insuffic shields for 4 turn settler.
We can do a 2 turn worker. We then need the grass ivory mined for sufficiency shields for 4 turner (6, 6+2, 7, 7+2). It just so happens ivory will be mined in 5 turns, just in time for the first 4 turn settler.
How this compares to current spreadsheet is we get an extra worker in exchange for 1 turn delay (under normal circumstances worker would be 2 turns delay) on settlers 2 onwards. This in essence is producing a 1 turn worker complete with population recovery, something which usually requires railroads.