SGOTM 14 - Spooks

[Andronicus]

Will you make a new spread-sheet, or should I? Perhaps there is an extra Worker in there, or Settlers one turn earlier?

I'm sorry but I have tied myself in knots with trying to adapt your spreadsheet (I'm more used to working with Offa's), so I'll leave that for you - besides its late and I'm too likely to make mistakes if I continue now.

I haven't considered earlier settlers - an extra worker may allow that with chops, but I don't think we have the necessary shields otherwise.

 

[Andronicus]

OK continuing on
Turn 5 2750BC
Plan to keep CC at 5fpt, insert worker after first settler as described above.
We can do 2 chops timed to speed 2 settlers, but not until BG mined so we have enough shields to run 4 turner at size 4-6.
BTW we have multiple options for horses red dot, blue dot and north of the northern lake

Turn 6 2700BC
Curragh contacts Egypt - sell WC for 10g (currently have 4g at -3gpt), so still avoid need for purchasing gold
Slave joins its fellow on the wines to speed connection

IT
CC settler -> worker

Turn 7 2650BC
Settler arrives at red dot
Scout spots lellowy border south of Babylon, but ? on another island - next curragh needs to go south from red dot
Lux remains on 10% despite shrinking aswe still require 1 happy face from lux at size 5
Thanks to running 90% science I think we are going to make up 1 turn on writing (CA2 shows us 8 beakers ahead of spreadsheet)

Turn 8 2600BC
Haunted Hollow founded at red dot - it starts a warrior, this could be changed to curragh, but I think we need warrior first to escort settlers to other sites
Decide to move scout rather than wait for yellow to come into view and are rewarded with contact with Korea ? on a different island to yellow. Trade CB for 10g.
Writing requires only 27 beakers now, so we will make it in 2 turns (with 1 beaker to spare)
Babylon must have popped a hut - they have25g - we relieve tham of it for wheel (which all other AI on our island have. Our finances are now a healthy 42g with -2gpt.
Egypt and Greece now have iron - trade Greece masonry for IW - HH has iron in its radius after expansion (as well as horses)
Actually can wring a bit more commerce by giving HH wines and CC uses oysters as shields to spare this turn -> science down to 70%, still writing in 2

IT
CC worker -> settler

Turn 9 2550BC
Curragh spies what appears to unihabited island east of Egypt, but no, we spy Roman settler pair on a mountain - Pottery relieves them of their starting 10g
We can get all Arab gold 184 + myst for iron (the AI will likely get it soon as Zulu will not give myst + all 28 of its gold). I do the deal, also securing 28g from Zulus.
Worker 2 starts road to east -> BG2
Scouts finds Babylon city built on 7 ivory!

IT
Wring researched, I set to CoL in 19 turns at 100% science (next player can switch if that is the decision)
Ottomen settle to our NE near brown dot

Turn 10 2500BC
Our 4 turn SF is now operational with HH using wines when CC size 5.
I have not moved worker 1 nor our 2 slaves, they have all just completed tasks. We have option of prioritising roads or developing BG3 so we can chop twice to speed 2 settlers and run size 4-6. If prioritising BG3 all 3 units can go there this turn and mine it in 3 turns, slaves can then road it whilst worker 1 moves to a forest for a chop.
F3 tells us barb camp near CC, next settler requires an escort.
We can sell IW to Ottomen for 25g, we have no immed need of gold, so I would hold onto it in case we get a slave opportunity. We are also up tech on Babs, so have slave buying opportunities there. With Arabs or Russians, I would buy with gpt rather than cash to reduce risk of dow. Certainly we should hang onto writing unless extortion.

The save is here


Roster
Più Freddo - got us off and running
Andronicus - just played
Yilar - up and raring to go
Paul#42 - on deck
Markh
Denyd
ControlFreak

 

[Più Freddo]

We will then be size 5 and insuffic shields for 4 turn settler. We can do a 2 turn worker.

Sounds good. Research should be enough if you can trade for cash. If not, then Writing comes a turn later and we have won growth instead. The Settler for Red comes very soon anyway and the rest only one turn later than planned, which in turn was two turns earlier than without slaves. So we're still one turn up. And a Worker.

 

[Yilar]

I will have to skip this round or bump me down the list. I have a bunch of midterms this week and I have to study

 

[Andronicus]

Amended roster

Più Freddo - got us off and running
Andronicus - just played
Paul#42 - up
Markh - on deck
Denyd
ControlFreak
Yilar

We need a decision on research - I support going for rep slingshot.
Also need to decide next site - I put up a dot map (for discussion, I'm sure there will be other opinions)

 

[Più Freddo]

Haunted Hollow, Spooky Swamp and Ghoul's Graveyard are the best I can do

Let's use these names and then continue always with a different letter.

 

[Più Freddo]

We have the same territory as klarius, but lower score. I guess they have met even more alien tribes?

 

[Paul#42]

Paul#42 - up

chrr... what? Who, me?

Okay, I'm here.

I got it. Check the status and post my thoughts. I'm probably able to play in 24 hours...

 

[Andronicus]

We have the same territory as klarius, but lower score. I guess they have met even more alien tribes?

IIRC score is a function of territory and pop (happy and contents). If other teams went for max growth early (which I suspect Klarius did) then they would have had bigger pop earlier and got their second town out earlier (ours was towards the end of my turnset, theirs may have been towards the beginning), This would give them more pop and territory points. What we lose on this we will hopefully gain on commerce.

 

[Andronicus]

I got it. Check the status and post my thoughts. I'm probably able to play in 24 hours...

We still require a decision on the sling shot, getting writing a turn earlier improves our odds.

Next town site - do we make a run for green?

HH builds - ? warrior, curragh, worker
Other town builds - ? warrior, worker

MM
- CC is set for 4 turner using cow, wheat, 2 ivories, BG3 and wines when size 6. Due to the extra commerce at size 6 giving a second happy face we can leave lux slider at 10%. Moving out the mp to scout ahead of next settler will obviously upset this, but with barbs around, I think it must be done.
- HH can currently use wines for max commerce when CC size 5 (next commerce is corrupted so dont give the ivory). Once wheat is irrigated it will grow quicker, but can we spare a worker yet.

Worker tasks
I outlined previously a way to get CC to size 4-6 4 turner with chops (requires mining BG3), but not sure we need to do this as lux only req 10% provided we have the 2 mp's. It remains an option.
Otherwise priority seems to be getting a road network to get our settlers quickly to future sites, then developing these sites.
Any opportunities for slaves I think we should take. (wish I could have afforded the 2 Zulu ones at the start of my set)

Trade
I have tended to shy away from trading alpha to overseas AI, I dont think it matters any more. Obviously holding onto writing as long as poss is essential to sling shot success if we go that direction. I would not refuse an extortion from AI on our continent yet, but of course overseas AI are impotent pre MM, so they just give us war happies.

 

[Paul#42]

Great work so far!

After first glance - some things I'd like to discuss:

expansion
1. move blue dot 1SE? Even if CC is not doing settlers one day, with all those hills around I'm pretty sure it will be working the cattle most of the time even at size 7+. I'd rather move blue dot towards the horses, also saving the forest (and a possible BG underneath)...

2. Should we settle our next towns outside in, i.e. try for green, cyan, yellow dots first by sending our escorting warrior there 2-3 turns early and the settler following if the site can be taken uncontested?
I'd favor that.

diplomacy
Now that we got opportunity to establish embassies, should we start some phony wars to
a) get war happiness by doing the tie-peace-to-alliance thing? (only with remote rivals)
b) get some civs an early GA to encourage them to build a wonder (for us)?
(better with local rivals)
So far only Russia and Ottomen are building Oracles in their capitals...
I'm thinking about bribing Russia and Ottomen against "hemmed in and defensive-UU Babs"
Of course not before our scout has left that area.
This might also give us more slave offers - most of which however by Hammu whom we cannot trade with, then...

Oh, Andro did you try that <shift-d>-trick on turn 7 when you saw that Incan/Persian border SW of Babylon?

worker actions
I agree the BG 2SE of CC is important to improve.
But more urgent than getting CC down by one pop to keep luxury at 100% I'd consider to build roads towards our next sites.
CC at size 5-6 at 90% is still more commerce than sizes 4-5 at 100% if we use a 2cpt tile. Most of our other towns won't lose any commerce at 90% - unless they need the happiness anyway.
Otoh to get two 3-turn-settlers is still appealing...
And I'm not sure if we can have our workers unprotected so far out there.. .

So all workers on the BG now, mine, road and then the slaves keep roading towards cyan dot while the native chops a forest for quicker settlers #4 and #6. Okay?
Or 2.0 workers (1 native and 2 slaves or 2 natives) keep choping to speed up settlers #3 and #4 according to this "plan":

Spoiler :

workers move (30)
road BG3 (31)
mine BG3 (33)
move (34)
chop (36)
move (37)
chop (39)

settlers in CC:
#2 (33 7.0 -> 5.0)
#3 (36 6.5 -> 4.5)
#4 (39 6.0 -> 4.0)

downsides:
no roading of choped tiles...
quick-and-dirty action

production
CC will need the wine next turn...
How about HH taking the forest to get the warrior (4/10) in two at loss of 1fpt and 1cpt? CC would gain 2cpt in the span...

 

[Più Freddo]

2. Should we settle our next towns outside in

For strategically important land, yes. (Incense, SE.) But most important is then to get a productive core and build veteran Horsemen.

Now that we got opportunity to establish embassies

For what money?

 

[Più Freddo]

HH builds - ? warrior, curragh, worker
Other town builds - ? warrior, worker

Sounds reasonable. HH is on Plains, so irrigation is needed before it makes sense to build a Curragh. Hope another Worker can do it, so build order can be like suggested.

Forget about improving CC any more at this time.

 

[Andronicus]

Good to see some discussion - you make some good points Paul.

expansion
1. move blue dot 1SE? Even if CC is not doing settlers one day, with all those hills around I'm pretty sure it will be working the cattle most of the time even at size 7+. I'd rather move blue dot towards the horses, also saving the forest (and a possible BG underneath)...

I agree my blue dot is very crowded. My thinking is in republic (which may be only 22-25 turns away), CC is the only town which can use the +1 food oysters. Give it also the irrigated wheat (since HH already has 1) and it has +5 food without the cow, so can grow quickly and use all the hills it wants. Blue dot using the irr cow would give another +5 food town, it would then use mainly tiles to the west. This was only an idea, I'm happy to go along with wider spacing, but then CC would use both cow and oysters (or waste oysters) and HH both wheat which would require mining these tiles for optimisation (more worker tasks). I attach a tile allocation shot (for when towns reach size 12) which confirms the crowded nature - options include using blue dot as 2 turn worker factory after chopping a granary. Note moving blue dot 1SE loses 1 tile to north and only gains 1 to south, so no extra tiles avail. If we want more tiles we would need to move green dot to your original suggestion 1NE (the more I think about it the more I like it).
(actually moving blue dot 1NW gives an extra tile for blue to use, frees up tiles in south for orange and green and doesnt settle the forest - in case its a BG )

2. Should we settle our next towns outside in, i.e. try for green, cyan, yellow dots first by sending our escorting warrior there 2-3 turns early and the settler following if the site can be taken uncontested?
I'd favor that

.
If we are going to make a play for green then I think we need to go for it now, (I would if SP game). Settler completes in 3 and site could be settled in 6 turns. Note green 1NW could also be settled in 6 turns as road on BG will be complete speeding progress there. Again I would send warrior on ahead.
I'm not so sure that cyan and yellow are going to be such powerhouses to warrant slipping them ahead of orange - so my suggestion is green, orange, cyan, pink, yellow.
Orange would need chops to speed a rax (after warrior / worker?) to free up tiles. Same goes for green.
If we want the iron connected we should consider another coastal town 2 S of HH (alt is to get culture expansion - not my preference) but this is not a priority - horses should come first.

diplomacy
Now that we got opportunity to establish embassies, should we start some phony wars to
a) get war happiness by doing the tie-peace-to-alliance thing? (only with remote rivals)
b) get some civs an early GA to encourage them to build a wonder (for us)?
(better with local rivals)
So far only Russia and Ottomen are building Oracles in their capitals...
I'm thinking about bribing Russia and Ottomen against "hemmed in and defensive-UU Babs"
Of course not before our scout has left that area.
This might also give us more slave offers - most of which however by Hammu whom we cannot trade with, then...

I'm wary of us getting into any war on our island until we get sev rax and horses connected. I'm fine with OS phoney wars linked to peace treaties though - perhaps Celts and Americans?

Oh, Andro did you try that <shift-d>-trick on turn 7 when you saw that Incan/Persian border SW of Babylon?

Can only do this if your unit touches the border, seeing the border is not enough - unfortunately the border does not reach our island. I did consider leaving scout there in case a unit appears, but decided against it and indeed further exploration found the Koreans.

worker actions
I agree the BG 2SE of CC is important to improve.
But more urgent than getting CC down by one pop to keep luxury at 100% I'd consider to build roads towards our next sites.
CC at size 5-6 at 90% is still more commerce than sizes 4-5 at 100% if we use a 2cpt tile. Most of our other towns won't lose any commerce at 90% - unless they need the happiness anyway.
Otoh to get two 3-turn-settlers is still appealing...
And I'm not sure if we can have our workers unprotected so far out there.. .

I think we are better to run size 5-7 and just road rather than chop. Perhaps a chop of forest to speed a curragh for HH and later raxes for our military producers, but this is probably during the following turnset. Running size 5-7 maximises our commerce.

production
CC will need the wine next turn...
How about HH taking the forest to get the warrior (4/10) in two at loss of 1fpt and 1cpt? CC would gain 2cpt in the span...

Well CC does need to use the wines at size 6, so HH uses the wheat. Dont switch HH to forest. This doesnt change commerce at all (both wheat and forest are unroaded river tiles), it doesnt speed warrior production as HH will have 6 shields in the box so 3spt working forest no advantage over 2spt using wheat. It does cost growth, as you point out.

 

[Andronicus]

For what money?

We currently have 267g and getting more whenever we meet AI

Embassy with Americans costs 30g, Celts 34g

Americans are slightly ahead of Celts in score and in power - both are backward lacking alpha and IW so a long tome till they will bother us. I recommend immed embassies, dow America and MA Celts tied to peace (Celts also down mysticism and wheel)

 

[Più Freddo]

We currently have 267g

Well, then!

 

[Paul#42]

Andro, your TAT (tile allocation table) is convincing.

I agree to put blue dot where you had suggested.

There's little (no?) opposition to doing the slingshot so I'll stick with CoL.

I will start to play now.

But this will take some hours because I'm still witnessing Hamburg's desaster against Hoffenheim (0:3 at half time)...

 

[Paul#42]

here is the save

maps



embassies



detailed turn log

Spoiler :

turn 0 (30) 2550 BC
Establish embassy in Washington. Horses and Iron in range.
<img>
Settler standing idle - running out of space early? 100% science - 4bpt .
It seems there is no connection between Celts and Americans - perfect!

Establish embassy in Entremont. Horses in range.
<img>
Also 100% science.

Dow America, Resign peace with Celts for MA against America, giving them Alphabet.

No chance to shave a turn off our settler's way to green dot - unless all workers head for the grassland E-NE
So all to the BG3.

I decide the warrior a turn earlier is worth the turn delay in HH's growth.
HH works forest and CC wine at same commerce, +1 shield - 1 food.
We need that warrior for scouting ahead of the settler.

IBT
Ottoman gain 25g, now offer 50g for IW...
Bab spear from our Iron to horses.

turn 1 (31) 2500 BC
worker1, slave1 road BG. slave2 E.
lux 10% allows MP to leave, warrior1 NE-E.

IBT
HH warrior -> curragh
Russia offers slave :yummy:
Bab spear NE.

turn 2 (32) 2470 BC
Buy slave3 for IW.
slave3 NE-E.
slave2 road BG.
warrior1 E.

IBT
CC settler -> settler
Rome learns Writing
Good thing they seem isolated, still lack IW, Mas, TW, Mys...

turn 3 (33) 2430 BC
warrior1 E on green dot. All empty
settler NE-E.
worker2 3SW towards HH's wheat. We need food and commerce there.
slave1 SE.

IBT
zzz

turn 4 (34) 2390 BC
warrior1 E on incense, still all clean.
settler E.
worker1 mine BG3.
worker2 2SW-S on wheat.
curragh meets Sumeria (S of Egypt). 1g, just missing Writing...

IBT
barb approaching from N.

turn 5 (35) 2350 BC
warrior1 S, still all clean.
settler E on green dot.
slave1 road plains.
worker2 irrigate wheat.
lux to 0.9.1

IBT
barb enters hill

turn 6 (36) 2310 BC
Ghoul's Graveyard founded on green dot. Starts rax.
Curragh meets Hittites. Sell Mas for 80+20g. (80g native, 20g gifted before)
warrior1 S on Iron. Arab reg warrior from E.

IBT
CC settler -> settler

turn 7 (37) 2270 BC
settler 2SE, cyan dot
warrior1 S.
Embassey in Istanbul for 32g. Awful site.
Iron hooked up.

Embassey in Mecca for 32g. Blessed with Ivory.

IBT
Hittites learn HBR.
barb threatens slave3.
Ottoman settler combo 2E of GG heading S.

turn 8 (38) 2230 BC
settler E-S. slave2 S.
warrior1 S.
Curragh meets Aztecs. 10g, no Mas, Alpha, TW, Mys. sell Alpha for 10+70g.
Hittites won't give HBR for Mys+IW+60g. We wait.
warrior3 kills barb 3NE flawlessly.

IBT
Bab settler combo head N from
Ottoman settler heads east.
HH builds curragh on growth.
Sumeria learns HBR.

turn 9 (39) 2190 BC
worker2 roads wheat.
slave3 E. Worker1 E-N on blue dot to chop.
settler (cyan dot) on wheat.
Trade Pottery to Greece for 10+60g.

IBT
2 reg Arab warriors (heading NE) block our cyan dot

turn 10 (40) 2150 BC
settler SW, slave1 SE, slave2 N-E on horses.

after flight
sorry, I moved some units before realizing that it was the final turn
worker1 and slave3 shall start chopping for rax and first horses in GG.
F3 announces no barb camps around.

the graphs are not too positive...

 

[denyd]

Ok, I got it and the Med Modpack appears to be working fine. If we've got the spreadsheet done for my turn-set I'll need to take a look at it. It'll need to be adjusted since we've got that new slave and have an incoming BW. I'll take a look at the save tomorrow night (backed-up on other games) and play on Tuesday night, so we'll have a lot of time to discuss the turnset.

 

[Andronicus]

the graphs are not too positive...

Dont get too het up about the graphs - we know we will be behind on score and territory initially as we went slower growth, no early settler. What I find more intriguing is pondering the reason for Ivan's drop in culture rate between turns 40 and 50
Possible reasons could include revolt (? philo -> trade for either poly or CoL and free govt tech) or less likely either losing capital or shifting capital (not suggested by their territory graph). If we make a successful sling shot we should revolt in the following 10 turns which Klarius hasn't, so perhaps they missed / didn't attempt slingshot.

Havnt looked at save yet, but from your pics I wonder at the plan to road the horses near GG. How do you plan to get them in our cultural control? Either we need a temple in GG or another town between GG and cyan dot.
My preference would be to road the horses near HH and claim them with yellow dot.

If we've got the spreadsheet done for my turn-set I'll need to take a look at it

I think the spread-sheet is past its use by date now we have multiple towns. CC just requires being kept on 4 turn settlers whilst maximising use of high commerce tiles. It could use mBG, iCow, iWheat, mGr-ivory, iPl-ivory each turn, oysters when size 6, with HH using wines and 2nd iWheat. We have a couple of extra shields per cycle now BG mined, but that will be used when orange dot is settled.