SGOTM 14 - Team Roadkill

[CreeDakota]

bummer. well I would say a mix of warriors and archers in the near term. Warriors for happiness garrison and to fog bust to the South and East. But since we don't know how big the northern wilderness is archers may be needed to survive at all up there.

I would go warrior and BW until we grow a population, finish second worker, then back to warrior. Maybe alter that a bit if finishing the worker early would leave us with idle worker turns? Anyway I would rather have a unit out sooner than a stronger unit.

what does ^^^^^^^^ mean?

 

[Habitus]

Arrows to where i can see coast

 

[Habitus]

Warrior 1 (1/15), City (5/22), Worker 1 moves to Cows, Bronzeworking (22/187)
Warrior 1 (2/15), City (10/22), Worker 1 moves to Cows, Bronzeworking (36/187)
Warrior 1 (3/15), City (15/22), Worker 1 - Cows Pasture (1/4), Bronzeworking (50/187)
Warrior 1 (4/15), City (20/22), Worker 1 - Cows Pasture (2/4), Bronzeworking (64/187)
Warrior 1 (5/15), City (25/22), Worker 1 - Cows Pasture (3/4), Bronzeworking (78/187)
Worker 2 (31/60), City (3/24), Worker 1 - Cows Pasture (4/4), Bronzeworking (92/187)
Worker 2 (40/60), City (3/24), Worker 1 moves to Corn, Bronzeworking (106/187)
Worker 2 (49/60), City (3/24), Worker 1 - Corn Farm (1/5), Bronzeworking (120/187)
Worker 2 (58/60), City (3/24), Worker 1 - Corn Farm (2/5), Bronzeworking (134/187)
Worker 2 (67/60), City (3/24), Worker 1 - Corn Farm (3/5), Bronzeworking (148/187)
Warrior 1 (16/15), City (9/24), Wrk 1 - Corn Farm (4/5) Wrk 2 move to Plains Hill, Bronzeworking (162/187)
Warrior 2 (2/15), City (17/24), Wrk 1 - Corn Farm (5/5) Wrk 2 move on to Plains Hill, Bronzeworking (176/187)
Warrior 2 (3/15), City (25/24), Wrk 1 move to chop Wrk 2 - Plains Hill Mine (1/4), Bronzeworking (190/187)
Warrior 2 (7/15), City (10/26), Wrk 1 move to chop Wrk 2 - Plains Hill Mine (2/4), Masonry (17/124)
Warrior 2 (11/15), City (19/26), Wrk 1 - chop 1N of city (1/3) Wrk 2 - Plains Hill Mine (3/4), Masonry (31/124)
Warrior 2 (15/15), City (28/26), Wrk 1 - chop 1N of city (2/3) Wrk 2 - Plains Hill Mine (4/4), Masonry (45/124)
Settler 1 (35/100), City (2/28), Wrk 1 - chop 1N of city (3/3) Wrk 2 move to chop, Masonry (59/124)
Settler 1 (50/100), City (2/28), Wrk 1 move to chop Wrk 2 chop 1E of city (1/3), Masonry (73/124)
Settler 1 (65/100), City (2/28), Wrk 1 - chop 2N1E of city (1/3) Wrk 2 chop 1E of city (2/3), Masonry (87/124)
Settler 1 (100/100), City (2/28), Wrk 1 - chop 2N1E of city (2/3) Wrk 2 chop 1E of city (3/3), Masonry (91/124)
Warrior 3 (24/15), City (11/28), Wrk 1 - chop 2N1E of city (3/3) Wrk 2 + Set 1 move to Plains Hill, Masonry (105/124)
Warrior 4 (13/15), City (20/28), Wrk 1 move to chop Wrk 2 + Set 1 move to Silk, Masonry (119/124)
Warrior 4 (17/15), City (29/28), Wrk 1 - chop 2E1N of city (1/3) Wrk 2 + Set 1 move to 'A', Masonry (133/124)
*Slavery Revolt*, Wrk 1 - chop 2E1N of city (2/3) Wrk 2 - Wheat Farm (1/5), 9overflow (City now Pop 5)
Settler 2 (38/100), Wrk 1 - chop 2E1N of city (3/3) Wrk 2 - Wheat Farm (2/5)
Settler 2 (54/100), Wrk 1 - Grass Hill Mine (1/4) Wrk 2 - Wheat Farm (3/5)
Settler 2 (127/100), Wrk 1 - Grass Hill Mine (2/4) Wrk 2 - Wheat Farm (4/5) *2 Pop Whip*

This probably what i'd suggest with Warriors, the next turn we finish chop by Wrk 1 and put that + hammers from cows, hill, city in to a 1 turn Archer (3 overflow) or Warrior (13 overflow) depending on how our warriors are holding up

Added extra since above was written. Warrior 3+4 are built with a grass forest for 21 instead the mine to allow growth to Pop 5, so after 2 Pop whip of Settler 2 we can still work Corn+Sheep+Cows for Settler 3. During Settler we can work one of the Silk or Spice tiles for extra commerce along with Corn+Sheep+Cows+Plains Hill Mine.

Instead of A, we can settle Stone City on same turn and instead of wheat improve stone, or even settle on stone and start chopping in to Mids straight away (at stone city rather than capitol)

 

[yatta77]

Personally, I prefer:

1) Next Research
The wheel >> Masonry; then Bronze Working

2a) Next Production in Capital
- *Warriors (but archers sounds good enough) up to size 'x' (<< to be decided, I'm confident on Habitus analysis on the best deal )
- 2x Settler
- 'mids

3) Next Settling Plan
- Stone city second
- Gem city third

2b) First Production in Stone city
- a third Worker maybe?

4) Next Worker Tasks
- finishing up improving special tiles in capital CFC
- Road to Stone city and Quarry on the stone as next priority
- one (or a couple) of mines in capital CFC, if possible
- Road to Gem city, and Mine on Gems as next priority
- Chopping next, once discovered bronze working (will speed up also the 'mids).

I consider improving special tiles and road-connecting cities more urgent than start chopping few turns earlier.

5) Next Scouting
Hard to tell now. Whatever who is up thinks is the best path, that's fine with me.

---

Please, everybody share opinions here on those issues, let's try to take a (democratic) quick decision.

- yatta.

 

[CreeDakota]

So I am ok with targeting the MIDS with I think is at the heart of Yatta's plan.

IT is looking likely we are isolated or at the very least unlikely to be cutoff of good spots or blocked in by an AI=we can safely slow our expansion a bit and/or settle without worrying too much about blocking and backfill ourselves.

I personally think isolation is the perfect situation for wonders. Add stone and marble close and philosophical and the case gets stronger.

HOWEVER, I think it probable that our mids date would actually be accelerated by BW first due to early chopping rather than wheel masonry. BW-Wheel-Masonry. The chopping gets the settlers/military out faster = start mids sooner.

 

[yatta77]

HOWEVER, I think it probable that our mids date would actually be accelerated by BW first due to early chopping rather than wheel masonry. BW-Wheel-Masonry. The chopping gets the settlers/military out faster = start mids sooner.

hum... ok then, if Habitus analysis (since I see Habitus being the more active about those) prove correct BW >> Wheel >> Masonry being faster setting up all we need, then add +1 vote to this (CreeDakota's) plan.

- yatta

 

[Habitus]

Chopping + Whipping will gets us our settlers+military quicker. Harder to say about the mids, I'd probably settle gems first, improve wheat, grow to 2, whip workboat, grow to 2 whip workboat. 1st heads east and round the coast to near stone to improve the seafood there, 2nd goes west and helps scout. Warriors from cap will just spawn bust at stone + gems location for now to let us settle them.

We have to decide on what VC we are thinking of targetting as around now is when they will start to go thier seperate ways. Mids points towards Culture more than anything less (Space will be far too late)

 

[CreeDakota]

Hehe, Habitus I don't know if you planned to become the fact checker for all of the teams wild hunches and assumptions but it is appreciated! Let us know if you want some help with the turn crunching.

What if we settle gem/deer/wheat first and have it build a workboat as first build for Stone city as city #3?

EDIT: X-Post with Habitus about the workboats.

 

[CreeDakota]

VC culture when we have to defeat the Wizard sounds problamatic. My culture games seem to divert alot of hammers and science away from butt kicking and rely on diplo to survive.

 

[Habitus]

Updated Plan abit to see how well Masonry followed BW, hard time to squeeze in wheel too

 

[CreeDakota]

Mids support any VC to me except maybe Diplo.

 

[Habitus]

It depends on how long your teching, even in isolation Dom+Conquest won't tech enough for the hammers put into the mids payoff most of the time (often they can just capture the mids anyway)

We need to be certain we're isolated soon so we can get Astro quickly if thats the case.

 

[yatta77]

Now, I'm confused:
- I remember people claiming 'mids being good if Philo OR having Stone (we do both)
- I remember people claiming 'mids being good if isolated (we are)
- I remember people claiming 'mids not being good for cultural victory

So, what's wrong with the 'mids in this game?

Ok, I know I analyze things in a more conceptual than mathematical way, and I play in function of the last 50 turns rather then the first 50, but giving up on the 'mids now, what we plan to do? Let the AIs share research and give them also the representation bonus?

And this while having not to spend hammers on an army right now?

Uhm... yatta's plan:

- marble + stone + philo + chari = 'mids + great library + (maybe) angkor wat
we have all the weapons to take the most from specialists: we should take advantage of it running representation!

- once again: the hyper food city mega GP farm on the west, please take this option into consideration!
10 culture points might come from anywhere, there is not need to worry about the border pop of the _3rd_ city: by that time a library might be built or chopped, for example, or a religion might be there as well.
We need to keep up in tech! We need to produce tons of GPs!

- It is not about winning, it is about doing it EARLY! And likely we will need Astronomy! Let's focus on that!
We target a conquest/domination victory, of course.

- over ocean war = offensive war, easy to surprise the AIs, and hard to be surprised.
Conquer is the goal, be the first to frigates + cuirassiers and/or cannons it is the key, tech lead is the mean.

- We want to rely on a block of STRONG 'home cities' on our land, being lowly expansive, sharing food and mines, building libraries and running specialists, and ready to produce tons of horse archers or knights or cuirassiers when needed (or troops + siege if not horses).
A bureaucracy cottaged capital? Ok! The rest let it be GP farms and production sites!

---

Now I ask: if conquest is not the goal here, what is?

IMO nothing else will give us a chance of SGOTM victory here.

Not that I really believe we are going to win, but at least we should risk on an 'all in' to try for it!

I'm fine with losing, I'm fine with badly losing, I really don't care: but all this as long as we play with a plan, targeting to win.

I mean, I'll rather try to win the competition and finish up being defeated by AIs taking too many risks, than play conservative to win the game but way too late, getting the wood spoon anyway in the competition.


So...


We will have 2 workers, alright (I would pick a settler, but I don't dislike 2 workers, that's alright).

Now, let's research the wheel + masonry next! Then BW. Then Writing. We need all those.

We need now improved special tiles in CFC, then road connections to east and west future cities, few warriors and 2 settlers to found those two cities our workers will improve, produce (chopping) 'mids in capital and train 2 more workers + few warriors (or archers) in those other 2 cities. Libraries everywhere next.

Bring all those three cities to happy cap (+1 chari bonus!), build libraries, run scientists, then start again with settlers or an army if we will be able to trigger the first war.

However, in any case, anyways, by turn 80 we have the 'mids done and a strong economy running, an high research rate, fog-busters and a defensive (toward barbarian) army of warriors/archers, 3 strong connected cities, 4 workers or so ready to chop and/or finish improving the strong tiles, as well as able start road connecting toward future city sites next. We are ready to plan for a war.

With marble and stone, the great library and angkor wat (the second one only if needed: we need a religion to take advantage of it) won't be a problem.
We can avoid building any other wonder I believe (still we can if we will decide for it, but I would rather build an army); and of course, we will conquer few more if things goes well.

Just my opinion.
I might very well give up on all this, but please give me a good reason to!

I might sound weird and silly, but I really need a long term plan to enjoy the game.

So, now I ask: what is the image of the last 50 turns of this game you guys have in your mind?

---

EDIT
note: cross posting with the last two (Habitus and CreeDakota) posts above _^^
(yep, it toke me quite a while to write up all this bunch of silliness in a foreign language ).

 

[Killroyan]

Nobody commented so far that we are apparantly on the right side of the map. At least I do not see the coast expanding on the right side.

About the expansion plan and the mids. I would normally go for gem city while teching BW-> the wheel -> masonry. In that time improve the 3 food resources and get mines on all 3 hills. This will give us 15 hammers at size 6 so a solid production base for the mids. Then get stone city up and running. So I agree with Habitus plan.

About the super GP Yatta is proposing. I can understand where you are going, but with the extra clam near the pig it is almost as good. And there is a lake present and a lot of grassland so I guess we are looking at a GP farm near clam-pig. It is just a few turns later.

About the mids, go for it. We have a production monster capital, we are philo and we have stone.

About taking risks and trying funny stuff, I also agree. But I guess a cultural victory is also beating the wizard. I just checked the victory conditions and we just have to meet the wizard before achieving a normal victory so anything goes except a religious victory.

 

[Habitus]

Mids are good, if I'd rolled a map like this i would certainly build them as they are helpful to all VC. The difference mainly is that i wouldn't decide on VC for awhile yet, while in games in competition you usually decide alot earlier and optimise towards that.

If we make the plan early Astronomy we need to avoid Civil Service and Theology (so GS won't bulb paper), we should build the Oracle and get MC (Pottery + BW needed, perfer to oracle Machinery but don't think we'd be able to). After Oracle research+bulb IW+Sailing+Maths+Calander+Compass+Optics that should open up Astronomy for Bulbing. Mids work for this short term goal very well, I'm just not sure if over just this amount of time the hammers get enough returns as after Astronomy we may not be researching much.

I chat more in abit as heading out for now

 

[neilmeister]

Poor Toto


(in case you missed it, your first warrior was called Toto)

 

[Habitus]

I saw and laughed

 

[Habitus]

Now, I'm confused:
- I remember people claiming 'mids not being good for cultural victory

Depends on what it costs you in expansion (Monarch and below you usually build them) Emperor is 50/50, Immortal+ you usually lose good sites that help you more than mids so don't often build them

 

[Killroyan]

OMG they killed Toto, the bastards!!!!!

 

[yatta77]

Mids support any VC to me except maybe Diplo.

Seems now we are all in favor of them (me, Zech, Cree, Habitus and Roy).

Nobody commented so far that we are apparantly on the right side of the map. At least I do not see the coast expanding on the right side.

Good Point!

(in case you missed it, your first warrior was called Toto)

I admit my ignorance. I had to Google 'Wizard of Oz Toto' to understand what you talk about.

Mids are good, if I'd rolled a map like this i would certainly build them as they are helpful to all VC. The difference mainly is that i wouldn't decide on VC for awhile yet, while in games in competition you usually decide alot earlier and optimise towards that.

If we make the plan early Astronomy we need to avoid Civil Service and Theology (so GS won't bulb paper), we should build the Oracle and get MC (Pottery + BW needed, perfer to oracle Machinery but don't think we'd be able to). After Oracle research+bulb IW+Sailing+Maths+Calander+Compass+Optics that should open up Astronomy for Bulbing. Mids work for this short term goal very well, I'm just not sure if over just this amount of time the hammers get enough returns as after Astronomy we may not be researching much.

I chat more in abit as heading out for now

Here we are! I like it! This is our supreme wisdom!

Please, my friend, Team Roadkill's supreme strategic advisor, find us a way to:
- have 3-4 cities,
- have about 4 workers,
- have enough warriors/archers to defend from barbarians,
- have the 'mids built,
- have the oracle built,
- have BW, wheel, masonry, writing and pottery (needed to Oracle MC) discovered.
All this by turn 80-85.

I know, it is not easy to do, but I know you can do it, I know you can micromanage a way to do it.
And if you can do that (or at least get the closer possible to), from now on, you will be my strategy hero!
And no irony in those words!

Give us those weapons, and we'll conquer the world! (or just die trying to )

- nemesys.