SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Grifftavian]

If we want to use a Great Prophet to bulb Theology, we need to know the following techs....

1. Meditation
2. Polytheism (almost there )
3. Priesthood
4. Monotheism (requires Masonry)

Meditation is the first tech a GProphet will want to give us, so we need to get it out of the way. I don't recall any of the previous discussions on tech path including Meditation.

 

[adrianj]

We can assume AI would change religion ASAP. So for an AI to pop borders before T1 they would need to be SPI or have their religion set in WB.

This table explains my thought on AI culture, not counting shrine or other impossible to know mapmaker meddling:

turn. Norm. CRE.  SPI. CRE+SPI. 
0.      0.    0.     3.     5. 
1.      3.    5.     6.     10. 
2.      6.    10.    9.     15. 
3.      9.    15.    12.    25.

At least two AI popped borders on T3, so I think these must be SPI. The rest must be normal, like Toku. I think there are no CRE AIs.

 

[adrianj]

It seems to me that teching through writing + priesthood and using Oracle to get Theo would be more efficient.

Re demographics, what turns do the AIs get an increase in approval rating? This will tell us the turn they converted, which is presumably T1 for everyone?

 

[Ronnie1]

I think hold off on the playing for a while longer Ron.

Just to clarify, when I said we could start building SH anytime I meant instead of building a warrior for instance after the worker, not that we were ready to continue.

Just to clarify further...I have NO INTENTION of playing any time soon. I am ready and available whenever we figure out what we want to do!

All the AI were given Buddhism at the start, so no revolt required I would think as there was nothing to "change".

EDIT: Thinking further, just because Buddhism was in the city, they would indeed need to actually revolt to get it as a state religion. Does this still work with the founder/shrine holder popping borders on T1?

 

[Ronnie1]

So does our screen reading tell us more about civs or leaders?

I want to build another test game and see if I can run some different scenarios through Theology.

 

[adrianj]

Yay, my internets have been restored, so I can type on a proper keyboard again I can also download and look at C63s screenshots.

The population and food is interesting. One AI managed to get a population of 2000 on T5. The problem with this, is that a size 2 city is actually population 6000, so this suggests that this civ has founded a second city. It's also consistent with a drop in approval rating of 85% (6/7) down to 83% ((6+4)/(7+5)). That's some serious mapmaker meddling. The rival best land area also went up by 8000 on this turn.

Approval rating went up across the board on the T2 demographics, suggesting a revolt to religion at end of T1. So none of them actually started the game in religion, and all had to revolt to it. Strange they didn't do it on T0 already. Certainly looks like 0 CHA civs.

Our land area went up one turn later than Toku. This is consistent if Toku did NOT lose a turn of culture during revolt, so perhaps the AI don't lost turns at all? Except then I can't explain why some others managed to pop borders a turn earlier, since if they were CRE they would do it a full 2 turns earlier not 1... I'm puzzled

The AI with the shrine had their second border expansion on T10. What's the requirement for that expansion, 100? I think the shrine builder is not CRE, else they would have had their second expansion two turns earlier (100/13 compared to 100/11).

Soliders
I think that 5 CIVs with 24,000 soldiers and 4 civs with 20,000 is consistent with Japan being in game and the starting demographics screen -- 5 civs with 24,000 and 4 with 20,000.=> 5 with (mining + hunting, wheel + agri, Fishing+wheel), 4 with none of mining/hunting/wheel.
Also, I assume that starting techs have not been altered by map maker. If not then civs like Arabia and Byzantines are out (wheel+myst)
Charismatics
Also, I think no Charismatic civs in this game either and if someone popped borders early (they will all have the +1 from budhism and one will have +5 with shrine) then that would indicate how many creatives we have.
Early Theology
The civ with shrine will immediately be accumulating GPP as well for an early Great Prophet. So we may have a very early Theology bulb.

Edit2:
Just played with numbers and it seems one more civ with 24,000 than those with 20,000 will always work as long as the remaining civs have 22,000 soldiers ie starting with one of mining and hunting (there would have to be an even number of such civs).

Just looking at the starting demographics again the civ with the shrine has 37 GNP which is 18 more than the lowest AI. IF it gets 4 more culture from shrine and 9 gold from shrine. It is still getting 5 GNP more than the lowest AI. Assuming the bottom AI in GNP has only one commerce from the City center. This AI is getting 5 extra commerce from it's city center and one tile. Even if settled on say wine I think this means it is a financial civ. Maybe Pacal/Capac?

EDIT: Coastal Starts for 2 or 3 CIVS?
Just noticed only two AI's have a coastal start. One possibly is Toku (japan starts with fishing) and so we might not see many early workboats for contact and early trade networks for religion spread. (Assuming following starting land tile counts: 6*9, 2*6, 1*8, last being a lake rather than one coast tile)
Also shrine civ could be creative (although I doubt it, as this needs too many things to be true for it to be the likely case, which we can infer from border pops anyway)

I don't quite follow this mc-red. Perhaps I've got my numbers wrong - I'm referring to numbers from here: The Inner Workings of the Demographics Screen Explained.

A 'typical' emperor start for the AI is +2 defensive units, +1 exploring units and Hunting+Archery techs. Someone like Toku of Japan would therefore have 2 archers (2x 3000), 2 scouts (0), Hunting (2000), Archery (6000) and The Wheel (4000). Total of 18000. Or do I have that wrong and he actually starts with 1 scout and 1 warrior, giving a total of 20000? The 20000 is at least consistent with the demographics.

An AI that starts with Mining instead of the Wheel would have 16000 (18000 with extra warrior?) in this scenario. Starting with both Mining and The Wheel gives 20000 (22000?) To get as high as 24000 they would need to be either Babylon or Mali (archers worth 4000) and have both of The Wheel and Mining.

 

[adrianj]

For the new test game, I think that Asoka starting with the shrine isn't a bad choice.

Toku is obviously in the game, and not paired with anyone.

Somebody starts with an extra settler, I think it would be almost too imbalanced if this were the shrine founder, but it is possible.

My thoughts on relating SPI, CRE and border pops weren't really consistent, but I'd suggest we have zero CRE civs, two SPI civs not including shrine founder, and six other civs. None of them are CHA.

I agree that there probably isn't any AI starting with Mysticism, else we could have lost the game already. But that doesn't say anything about the AI leaders, only their Civ. I'm not sure why Mali and Mongolia aren't possible.

Non CRE/CHA leaders remaining are:
Alexander, Genghi Khan, Montezuma, Ragnar, Shaka, Stalin, Bismarck, Isabella, Joao, Mao Z, Mehmed, Pacal, Peter, Darius, Elizabeth, Huayna C, Mansa, Justinian, Suleiman, Victoria, Wang K, Augustus C, Charlemagne, Qin Shi, Ramesses, Roosevelt, Frederick, Hammurabi, Sitting Bull and Saladin.

I think pick the religious zealots, generally aggressive and annoying to rush AIs. My list would be Asoka, Toku, Montezuma, Shaka, Isabella, Peter, Genghis Khan, Mansa Musa and Sitting Bull.

 

[Ronnie1]

When I built my test game the AI all started with 2 Archers + 2 Scouts.

I is actually very easy to generate a Great Prophet before researching both Meditation and Monotheism.

If we really want to go culture, and I like this idea a lot, then AG > Masonry > Mono > Meditation while building Stonehenge and possibly the Great Wall in our second city lets us expand to good city sites without having to worry about border pops or barbarians.

We use the Great Prophet to bulb Theology and take Confucianism from the Oracle and we will have 4 religions before about T70 I think.

 

[adrianj]

When I built my test game the AI all started with 2 Archers + 2 Scouts.

I is actually very easy to generate a Great Prophet before researching both Meditation and Monotheism.

If we really want to go culture, and I like this idea a lot, then AG > Masonry > Mono > Meditation while building Stonehenge and possibly the Great Wall in our second city lets us expand to good city sites without having to worry about border pops or barbarians.

We us the Great Prophet to bulb Theology and take Confucianism from the Oracle and we will have 4 religions before about T70 I think.

That's quite a strong start Ron Did you actually achieve that in a test game with a properly set up shrine, etc? You ignored all of Hunting, AH, BW and Archery?

If the next Great Person is a GS then we can also bulb Philosophy for another religion. 5 religions founded, plus buddhism spread to us gives us 6 of all the 7 religions, which is an excellent platform for a cultural game.

I fear we will have to deal with Toku, so perhaps ignoring Great Wall and instead building some proper military that can sharpen their teeth on barbs. Though without BW, AH or even Archery that might not work...

One concern I have is that the mapmaker has made such a challenging setup that simply winning the game will be difficult. Shooting for mad gambits like Theo bulb + CoL Oracle might be a stretch too far.

 

[Ronnie1]

Have you got a guess on Civs? Are there any screens or other data that can point us in the right direction?

You have to fill in something when building a test game to remove the possibility of a civ that starts with Mysticism.

 

[Ronnie1]

That was NOT an accurate test game in many respects. I screwed up and had a civ(s) that started with Myst in the game because someone founded Buddhism on T11.

I built this game last night before I realized Msyt went with the Civ and not the leader. Other than that......

I Teched AG > Masonry > Wheel > PH > Mono > Writing > Med ....Oracled Col and bulbed Theology

At T68 I had SH and GW and 3 cities total.

 

[adrianj]

Have you got a guess on Civs? Are there any screens or other data that can point us in the right direction?

You have to fill in something when building a test game to remove the possibility of a civ that starts with Mysticism.

Other than Not Mysticism I don't really know. Power, and hence starting techs is the only demographic I can think of that would help.

Going from my list earlier: Shaka, Peter, Genghis, Toku, Mansa and Sitting Bull could just have their default civ. Then swap Isabella, Asoka and Monty for something else, like Babylon (Bowmen), Egypt (War Chariots), and Greece (Phalanx). Or even Rome (Legions), Sumeria (Vultures), Ottoman (Janissaries) or Ethiopia (Oromo) if we just picked the scary/annoying unique units.

It's all just guessing, but the line up sounds pretty formiddable.

That was NOT an accurate test game in many respects. I screwed up and had a civ(s) that started with Myst in the game because someone founded Buddhism on T11.

I built this game last night before I realized Msyt went with the Civ and not the leader. Other than that......

I Teched AG > Masonry > Wheel > PH > Mono > Writing > Med ....Oracled Col and bulbed Theology

At T68 I had SH and GW and 3 cities total.

Any reason for highlighting Wheel? Just that it could be skipped if needed?

If the shrine founder is not Philosophical, then it could still take them 100 turns to generate a GProphet. So I guess provided we have Theo before T100 we'll likely get it. T68 is something like 1280 BC isn't it? So with a bit of luck we stand a good chance of getting Oracle at that date as well.

 

[Ronnie1]

If Toku is to our east......what might the odds be of it being set up kind of like real earth?

China + Russia to the north, Persia west, some European civs west of that, African civs etc... Native America in the new world possibly with a partner to help speed them up.

 

[Ronnie1]

I actually had to slow down the Oracle to get Writing done to take CoL.....with both Stone and Marble, we can pump early wonders easily.

 

[adrianj]

So we could actually skip the Wheel for a little while. The absolute shortest route to Theo + CoL would be:
Poly -> Masonry -> Monotheism -> Priesthood -> Writing.

Bonus techs would be Agriculture, Hunting, Wheel and Bronze Working. Either Ag or Hunting we would almost certainly want. I imagine that without Slavery we would be better off with the deer camp than the corn farm. But we would want Agri so that our worker has at least got something to do when the mines/quarries are done. So maybe try out:
Poly -> Ag -> Hunting -> Masonry -> Mono -> PH -> Writing.

General build order something like: Worker -> Warrior -> Stonehenge (part) -> Settler -> Stonehenge -> Worker -> Oracle?

 

[Ronnie1]

But the wheel allows a very fast SH so we can get the Great Prophet!

AG was the 1st tech after Poly

I went Warrior > Settler(walking T33) > SH

 

[Ronnie1]

Look at C63's picture again....the shape of the surrounding land even looks like India!

Africa to the west.....land trailing off to the SE.

Peaks to the NE

 

[Ronnie1]

I have a test game that is basically complete.....but when I exit WB, I already know Sitting Bull even though he is on the other side of the world and no tiles have been revealed. Is there a way to make him go away short of deleting all his units and city?

 

[Ronnie1]

Here is the test game I was working on. FIXED!!!!!

Thanks Adrian

EDIT: You will have to add the grass hill next to the marble, I forgot that.

Also...our neighbors are too close in this game, it totally screws our tech rate by meeting opponents that have techs we are researching.

I have the WB save to work with though, and can make it better as we get more info.

 

[adrianj]

I have a test game that is basically complete.....but when I exit WB, I already know Sitting Bull even though he is on the other side of the world and no tiles have been revealed. Is there a way to make him go away short of deleting all his units and city?

I'm not sure exactly, but I would suggest you can change it by manually editing the WB save in something like Notepad. The file is easily human readable, and there should be some lines under each Civilization/Leader specifying who they have contact with.

1. Make a worldbuilder save.
2. Edit the file manually in notepad (or similar)
3. Load the game in BUFFY as a scenario.
4. Save the 4000 BC save.

Edit: FYI Ron - you didn't attach anything...