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SGOTM 15 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. Sleepless

    Sleepless Deity

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    Nice start C63.

    Managed a very quick look at the save. The land we can see atm isn't bad but nothing great sticks out as a great second city site. Saying that it look as though we need to expand East - North first possibly to grab land. Ideally for a cultural victory we want at least 9 cities for the cathederals in our Legendary cities. Some of the best sites for legendary cities are AI capitals if we can get them early enough. :) Though if the AI are close enough perhaps we might have to go for a mil victory instead.

    Wonders/GP's. Assuming we are going for a cultural victory we need to limit the amount of non artist GPs we get. The early ones aren't the problem its the cost of a later ones needed for culture bombs so personally I would avoid wonders which aren't of great benefit. i.e SH/GW. Early ones I would go for would be Oracle - Mids - AP (to keep out of AI hands and still keep that option open for us).

    I'll have a play around with the test game as well (thanks for doing them) but I would initially think.

    Agr - Hunt - Mas (still sure we don't need wheel as the resources are connected by the river) - Mono - PH - writing. Using warriors to fogbust as necessary.

    As my preference atm is to settle east - north makes it a bit difficult until we uncover that land.
     
  2. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    The marble is connected by the river, but not the stone.

    @sleepless...an AP loss is a very distinct possibility if we let a Buddhist civ build it. If we are going culture, we will need to found the other religions ourselves I believe as everyone will hate us very soon.

    A pile of Great Artists is the traditional way of going culture, but I have seen it done, in xotm competition I think, by massive wonder building in 1-2 cities and using hammers instead of commerce.

    @everyone
    I also think we are going to find that this is indeed an "earth" like map, and we will soon see AI to the west in "Africa" and the north in the heart of "Asia". There is a tiny corner of land to our south, I think we will find islands leading to the arid south continent that way. If you go generate a number of "earth2" maps and put in "regional" civs, it seems the computer tries to put them near their historical starting locations.
     
  3. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Deity

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    The less isolated we are the less I like going for culture, being the sole hindu in a buddhist world. But the next 10 turns or so should tell us more about it.

    A short term goal in my mind would be to grow to size 6 (our happy cap, counting +1:) from religion), working all 4 resources plus a farmed FP and a river grass hill mine (or 2, not farming the FP).

    Unless tests prove otherwise, intuition tells me Agri/Masonry/Hunting is the fastest ticket to this goal. The worker could mine a hill or 2 while waiting for Agri to complete, then farm corn & FP while teching masonry. Next we would quarry the 2 resources, in the order required to help the chosen wonder (SH or Oracle), leaving the deer camp for last. I personally find mining quarry resources (when we have grass hills available) a waste of precious worker turns.

    We would need a road (The Wheel) to connect the stone, if we want the bonus for SH, though. This would be a reason to reach Theo via Oracle instead of a GP bulb. But I do think the free monuments help in the REX phase, and that would be the best use of the most inevitable GProphet in this game.

    Ideally I would try to save Oracle for MC > forge > hopefully a GE to rushbuild AP.

    What do we need to sim for the next turnset?
     
  4. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    Give me a few minutes to update the WB test and upload another game that has or opponents a little farther away. Alternatively, use one of Griff's test games where we are isolated just to test research and improvement order.

    If the goal is to grow as fast as possible to size 6, I think Hunting first allowed me to grow quicker, but I don't remember exactly. I ran the next 25 turns a number of times looking at different ways to get a settler out ASAP as the goal, not growth.
     
  5. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    Here is a revised test game that should slow our contact with the AI (except Japan of course) a little bit.

    Out of curiosity, why would we want to grow to size 6 as a short term goal as opposed to getting a settler out ASAP?
     
  6. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Deity

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    It was the post below which might have influenced me...;)

     
  7. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Deity

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    Competitive intelligence update: judging from culture graphs on the progress and results page, OSS and US did not settle their capitals on t0...probably went to a quarry resource...
     
  8. adrianj

    adrianj Deity

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    I'll just point out that if we have many neighbours, there is nothing that says they must remain buddhist the entire game. The name of the SGOTM is The Missionary after all. We could convert one or two neighbours through missionaries (and maybe spies) and then we might get more of a buffer. Tricky part would be maintaining OB if we are their worst enemy.

    One suggestion I have is that we could AVOID making contact with AIs in the short term. Keep the exploring warrior fairly close. Disadvantages to this approach are we obviously get less idea of the map, and won't get as many known-AI-with-tech research bonuses.

    I still think we should make getting our first settler out as a high priority. The second city is pretty much always a net profit in terms of empire production and research. The grassland gems would be a really excellent tile to speed us along through Monotheism and Writing - and it's also connected to capital without needing the Wheel.

    Looking at the map in hindsight, I'm really glad we didn't go for settling on stone or marble. Corn would be the only resource! :thanx: to all the team members who convinced us otherwise! Also interesting to note, that had we moved the warrior anywhere other than NE we would not have seen the deer. This might put teams who made different choices at quite a disadvantage one would think. Edit: SE and E would also have revealed the deer. Still, I'm happy :D
     
  9. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    Here is a new revision slowing them down even more.:blush:

    Screwed up R3...another coming in a few minutes. :(

    Revision 4 now attached here...hopefully better!:please:
     
  10. adrianj

    adrianj Deity

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    The fact that Tokugawa is outspending us in espionage is an interesting puzzle. I can't think of many situations where the AI would actually adjust their espionage slider so early in the game.

    On T7 he was outspending us 20/12, so we spent 4 per turn for 3 turns, he averaged a fractional amount of 6.667. On T12 we've spent 32, which is 8 turns worth. He has spent 45, which is now a fractional amount of 5.625.

    If he has been given a pre-built building or great spy then it's possible he has greater than 6 :espionage: per turn, and that a couple turns after meeting us he met another AI and then began to split his point. Shortly after that he met another AI and split his points further. Example: He generates 8:espionage:/turn, meets us T5 and invests all 8 into us. After 2 turns he has 16 invested. Next turn he meets another AI and he only puts half his 8 into us, giving a total of 20 on T7. But then between T7 and T12 we have to assume he has changed the ratio so that he is putting 5/turn into us to get up to 45 on T12.
    This idea of him having a free building or Great Spy should see his GNP be fairly high, but other than the rival best the rest of the AIs seem fairly average.

    Does he have Alphabet? This should be obvious to check in the save, just wondered if anyone has done so? With Alphabet he might start to adjust the espionage slider. It might also account for the missing Power rating. That would be an interesting mapmaker trick to give all AI alphabet, but tech brokering turned off...
     
  11. Conquistador 63

    Conquistador 63 Deity

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    I'm not 100% sure how does espionage works, but one possible explanation is:
    . he met us t3, after our turn so we couldn't react properly, so he could start spending spy points on us one turn before.
    . he was given a building which gives a 25% bonus on espionage...yes, that's a castle! :mad:
    So he was able to spend 5ept * 9t= 45ep.

    If all AI received a castle, the additional ept might help to explain some puzzles from early Demo screenies.

    Regarding the early settler, I am NOT against it, especially if we find a decent blocking site towards Toku.

    edit: Toku doesn't have Alpha
     
  12. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    I like blocking against Toku....I hate that it is away from the Gems. :(

    As for the EP dilemma, nothing would surprise in the game set up. The AI has already been gifted a religion and a shrine. I noticed on my test game that the demo screen on T1 was not very close to the actual, even though the set up should be somewhat close. I definitely think some other tinkering has been done.:hmm:

    Test game demo screen T0

    EDIT: oops again...I forgot the shrine after I moved Asoka's capitol, updated demo screen after adding in shrine. It is indeed closer to actual now.

    Here is a link to the demo screen before C63 played...http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11205675&postcount=60
     
  13. adrianj

    adrianj Deity

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    Both those things you say make perfect sense C63! A castle would be a decent leveller from the mapmaker to discourage early rushes.

    Soldiers
    A castle is worth 2000 in soldier count. Toku = 2x Archers (6000) + Archery (6000) + Hunting (2000) + Wheel (4000) + Castle (2000) = 20000. Since 20000 is the rival worst, we can assume that all civs start with The Wheel at the very least. Civs with both The Wheel and Mining would get 22000, which might be two civs teamed together to give them these techs. Or babylon with their bowmen would get 22000. Mali would 24000 as they have Mining, Wheel and skirmishers.
    It's all kind of pointless at the end of the day though... the mapmaker could have done much more than just give out castles.

    GNP
    The castle will also affect GNP by giving an extra 2 from the bonus espionage and culture. GNP is a fuzzy enough business anyway, all I could suggest is that instead of researching a tier two tech they're going to tier one.

    Culture
    Border expansions all make more sense now. Toku would have 4 :culture:/turn, explaining his border expansion one turn earlier than us despite having to waste a turn revolting to Buddhism ceil(10/4) + 1 = 4. The SPI civs did it one turn earlier since they didn't spend a turn revolting ceil(10/4) = 3. CRE civs would revolt on the same turn as SPI civs ceil(10/6)+1 = 3. Owner of the shrine must be SPI.

    Blocking City
    The :espionage: does suggest that as at T12 Toku still hadn't met any other AIs. If we keep monitoring his espionage spending we will see if and when he meets another AI. If it is just the two of us on this land mass, then expanding toward him to block him off is kind of moot, since we're likely to just attack him at some point anyway. The No City Razing option is set, so I think we should be careful with not settling too many cities but expect to gain them through war instead. If there is a bonafide great city site between us and him then by all means, we should go for it.
     
  14. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    This is very interesting in a weird sort of way.

    I am playing with my test game, and an AI founds ISLAM on T35, so on T36 I look to see what is going on. Musa is the founder, but the WB Player screen shows he has NOT researched Poly/Mono/CoL/Theology/ OR DIVINE RIGHT! Do you think he is being given Islam for researching Meditation since Buddhism was pre-founded? It is the only explanation I can think of.:crazyeye:
     
  15. adrianj

    adrianj Deity

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    You're probably quite right Ron. In the test game, is there a little symbol on the Meditation tech to show that researching it would found a religion? If so, is that symbol present in the real game? Would gifting Meditation to the Buddhism founder fix the problem?
     
  16. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    I do not see the symbols on ANY of the religions.

    But here is the test game updated AGAIN with the shrine and Buddhism gifted to Asoka.

    On a side note, I again played through to T68 and took CoL from Oracle and Theology from the Great Prophet.

    I think it is doable if we want to go down that road.
     
  17. Grifftavian

    Grifftavian Emperor

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    Giving Toku the Nationhood Civic at the start of the game would also give him the +25% :espionage: bonus. But I think aj is correct, Castle Walls for a leader with the Protective trait & Archers is probably to discourage an early rush.

    FWIW, I've updated my test game (attached). All AI now have Emperor level units (2 Archers + 2 Scouts) and the all know Archery & Hunting (if they didn't already know it) in addition to their starting techs.

    It's still the Terra map script, and we've washed up in the New World with Japan as our only neighbor. I've given the Japanese Capitol Walls & a Castle. Luckily, I had Asoka as the Leader of the AI Civ that founded Buddhism in the original version. I've modified the surrounding terrain to match what was revealed during C63's turn set, land tiles still = 1784. I haven't checked to see how the initial Demographics of the actual game compare to this test game.

    EDIT: X-post with R1
     
  18. adrianj

    adrianj Deity

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    Ok, so we've got a couple of test games to play with. Great stuff.

    Planning Decisions and Questions
    1. Most importantly, what do others think about the bulb Theology + Oracle Code of Laws gambit? Do we want to go for one, both or neither of these?
    2. Short term we should decide if early settler is more important than capital growth. We will want to strike some sort of balance here.
    3. Would we like city #2 towards Toku to block, or towards whatever site is best?
    4. What is best for city #2, high production (food/hammers) or commerce?
    5. What do we tech next, Agriculture or Hunting? Note that Hunting + Camp is cheaper than Agri+Farm, but Agri gives our worker more things to do afterwards.
    6. Which non-essential techs might we like to squeeze into the queue? Techs like the other of Agri/Hunting, BW, The Wheel, Animal Husbandry, Fishing. BW revealing Copper + Slavery + Chopping is such a powerful tech to ignore...
    I guess once we have a handle on these questions then we can start to narrow our scope to micromanage the best route to get there.
     
  19. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    You don't have the choose religion option on do you? That would explain it.
     
  20. Ronnie1

    Ronnie1 Deity

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    I am all for the FASTEST escorted settler. To me that means warrior (asap) and settler @ size 2. I know I can get one walking by T33.

    This would also make a great place to end a turnset(T32), right before the settler is produced.

    No
     

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