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SGOTM 15 - Unusual Suspects

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jan 15, 2012.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 15 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the
    Maintenance Thread
    for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

    You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

    Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

    Good luck, and have fun. Remember, it's just a GAME! :mischief:
     
  2. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Reference



    Settings


    • Emperor, normal speed, no events, no goody huts, no vassals, unrestricted leaders
    • Aggressive AI
    • No Tech Brokering
    • No City Razing
    • City Flip After Conquest

    Civs


    • Gandhi/India
      • Spiritual: No anarchy, +100% temples
      • Philosophical: +100% GPP rate, +100% universities
      • Fast worker, Mausoleum (jail) gives +2:)
      • Mysticism, Mining are starting techs
    • Toku/Japan
      • Aggressive: Free Combat1 for melee, guns
      • Protective: +100% walls, free CG1 and Drill1 for archers and guns
      • Samurai (mace with 2 first strikes), Shale (Coal) Plant
      • Fishing, Wheel
    • Toku (Hammy)/Babylon
      • Bowman (archer with +50% vs melee), Garden (Colosseum plus 1 happy)
      • Wheel, Agriculture
    • Toku (Hatty)/Egypt
      • War chariot (5 strength chariot), Obelisk (monument, allows 2 priests)
      • Wheel, Agriculture
    • Toku (Shaka)/Zulu
      • Impi (spear with 2MP and Mobility), Ikhanda (barracks, -20% maintenance)
      • Agriculture, Hunting
    • Toku (Liz)/England
      • Redcoat (rifleman with +25% vs gunpowder), Stock exchange (bank, +15% extra gold)
      • Fishing, Mining
    • Toku (Genghis)/Mongolia
    • Toku (Cyrus)/Persia
    • AI8
    • AI9

    Information Links


    Test Games, Dot Maps, and Spreadsheets


    Key Strategy Posts


    Screenshots


    Rules, Logs, PPPs, and Reports


     
  3. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Game Report

    (last update May 17)
    Religious Victory 1710 AD on May 16. kcd brought it home! :D

    Player Status


    • vra379971
    • Deckhand
    • ChrisShaffer.....(T0-14)
    • Xcalibrator.......(T21-33)(68-85)(168-186)(225-232)
    • AAA...............(T14-21)(104-121)(216-225)
    • Trystero..........(T33-50)(121-138)(207-216)
    • Steelhorse..... .(T50-68)(138-147)
    • kcd_swede......(T85-104)(147-168)(186-207)(232-252)--Victory!
    • High King J.J.
    • Rusten -- Dead computer.

    Wonders


    Spoiler :
    • T43--Great Wall in Babylon
    • T55--Stonehenge
    • T68--Oracle in Bollywood (chose Theology)
    • T88--Temple of Artemis
    • T102--Schwedagon Paya
    • T103--Statue of Zeus
    • T104--Great Lighthouse
    • T107--Great Library
    • T110--Pyramids
    • T113--Apostolic Palace in Drona
    • T116--Notre Dame
    • T122--Hanging Gardens in London
    • T125--Mausoleum of Maussollos
    • T126--Colossus
    • ... Liz just keeps adding more in London.
    • T148--University of Sankore in Bollywood

    Techs Discovered

    (turn when available for use = 1T after autolog says)
    Spoiler :
    • T14--Polytheism (Hinduism founded)
    • T21--Agriculture
    • T33--Animal Husbandry
    • T44--Bronze Working
    • T50--The Wheel
    • T54--Masonry
    • T61--Monotheism (somebody beat us to it, T55)
    • T63--Priesthood
    • T68--Writing
    • T68--Theology (from Oracle)
    • T72--Pottery
    • T74--Fishing
    • T83--Hunting
    • T84--Archery
    • T95--Math
    • T105--Construction
    • T125--Code of Laws
    • T129--Meditation
    • T131--Civil Service (largely bulbed by Prophet)
    • T132--Sailing
    • T137--Alphabet, Iron Working, Horseback Riding from Toku for peace
    • T141--Paper
    • T148--Monarchy
    • T155--Metal Casting
    • T161--Compass (stolen from Toku)
    • T162--Machinery
    • Optics
    • ...
    • T186--Banking (we can now run Mercantilism--Toku's favorite civic--and gift it to others so they can run it too)
    • Misc. Stole several techs from Liz including Gunpowder(?), Chemistry, MilSci,Printing Press...
    • Divine Right in there somewhere--gifted it to several AIs.
    • Stole several more techs. Researched up to Music and traded for several more.
    • T225--Steel

    Who has what techs and how did they get them?


    Spoiler Everyone else has Alphabet so we can see what they have--not that they'll ever trade with us :
    • This might be useful because of the brokering restriction, but probably not--we'll see.
    • Japan and Babylon have BW (because we saw their revolts to Slavery).
    • Islam founded T40 so somebody has Theology, Monarchy, and Divine Right (T39).
    • Babylon built Great Wall T43 so they have Masonry
    • Judaism (Monotheism) founded T55 by TBD
    • Japan has Sailing (from espi visibility)
    • Japan is working on HBR (17 turns to go as of T74)
    • Confucianism (Code of Laws) founded T84 by TBD

    Turnsets



    Pre-game discussion--Settling on the stone or marble looks best because we get 2 extra hammers. The big question is "Polytheism or Agriculture first?" Agri first so we can farm the corn would give us a big boost, but would we fail at founding Hinduism (and lose the game at the start)? kcd has done some tests and the map type is critical; with some maps it's impossible to get Poly first even when that's our first tech, with others we can safely do Agri first. We decide (tentatively?) to play it safe and go Poly first. Going for the early stone wonders (Henge, Great Wall) is dismissed.
    Spoiler T0-50, 4000-2000 BC :

    T0-14 (4000-3440 BC, Chris)--On the opening turn, from the Demographics screen we deduce that Buddhism has already been founded and all the AIs have adopted it (see screenies). Thanks, Neil. ;) We move the warrior NE and then the settler N onto the stone because we expect more river squares and probably more forests (correct :)). We settle Bollywood on T1 and meet Toku on T4 :(. Our first two builds are warriors to do some exploring and let us grow to pop2 before starting a fast worker; we're researching Polytheism first and a worker wouldn't have much to do (other than mining) until Agriculture is done. We see some very nice land, especially to the east, which we must claim before Toku.

    T14-21 (3440-3160 BC, AAA)--We meet a Babylonian Tokugawa on T15 (shots). Neil, what have you done to us? We find some very nice land to the NW and also see Japan's borders in the SE (shots and log). Agriculture is finished on T21. We find a lovely location for our 2nd city to the east with gold, sheep, and corn. More screenshots, mostly big views.

    We spend a few days running tests comparing AH vs BW first. AH wins by a little. We want it to pasture the sheep for our to-be-founded City#2, and we hope to find horses to build chariots.

    T21-33 (3160-2680 BC, Xcal)--PPP. Our warriors survive lion attacks and we explore farther to the NW, then stop to heal. Japan's capital's borders pop so we have to abandon our hopes for a worker steal. Our first settler heads east to the gold/sheep/corn site but Japan arrives just before us and claims the corn in its 9-tile ring. We discover Animal Husbandry but there are no horses visible anywhere. Meanwhile, Babylon has gone into WHEOOHRN and we're its worst enemy. On the bright side, a forest grows N of our capital. Screenshots and report.

    We decide to stick with our plan to settle 1E of the gold even though we won't be able to use the corn (unless/until we take control from Japan). We want Bronze Working next to see if we have any copper (for spears and axes), and to whip and chop.

    T33-50 (2680-2000 BC, Trystero)--PPP. We settle Delhi (later renamed Drona in honor of a fallen warrior) and start a monument to pop the borders ASAP, aiming to block Japan's expansion and maybe control the corn for awhile. In the north we locate Babylon but lose two warriors to barbs :(, one of which is on Bollywood's southern border. We discover Bronze Working on T44; at least we have copper in Bollywood's BFC (but that dang barb will make mining it tricky). Neil isn't completely evil. Or is he? Islam is discovered on T40, so somebody has Theology, Monarchy, and Divine Right already! Lots of screenies and logs. Settler construction in Bollywood is halted to build another warrior while our workers chop, farm, and start to mine the copper. The barb doesn't enter our borders :) and we discover The Wheel on T50. Report, logs, and screenies for T44-50.

    Spoiler T50-104, 2000-525 BC :
    Time to pick a Victory Condition. We went with Animal Husbandry (no horses) before Bronze Working (yes, we have copper), so we're probably already at a disadvantage going for Conquest or Domination. Conquest is likely to be especially hard because of the no-city-razing setting. And frankly, other teams are better than us at Domination. Space and Diplomacy are too slow to be competitive, leaving Religion and Culture. A religious win could be Very early, but probably very difficult if our known neighbors (both Toku's) are any indication. For now we will pursue both Religion and Culture, since their immediate tech paths are pretty similar. The plan is to get Masonry, Monotheism (and found Judaism), Priesthood, and Writing while building The Oracle to take Theology. We do a fair amount ;) of testing/planning/micromanagement to get this done by T68.

    50-68 (2000-1280 BC, SteelHorse)--Approximate PPP for T50-61, and PPP for T61-68. We found a 3rd city north of the western gems (Delhi, T53) and Bollywood builds an axe to defend our northern frontier, then starts another settler for up there. We lose the race to found Judaism but continue with our plan. Hammy drops out of WHEOOHRN and we are no longer anyone's worst enemy. Logs and screenshot. After getting Priesthood we start the Oracle in Bollywood, then whip a settler midway through. He settles up north by the gold (Bombay, T66) and we finish the Oracle and Writing on T68, taking Theology. Logs and screenshots.

    Do we now pursue a Religious or Cultural win? Their tech paths are starting to diverge a bit. A Religious win pretty much requires that we build the Apostolic Palace, but somebody has already founded Divine Right, meaning (one would think) that they've also had the prereq Theology for quite awhile. A "normal" AI would run away to victory with such a tech lead, though, so we assume he is otherwise handicapped, giving us good odds (?) at getting the AP. Tentative plan (with other minor techs thrown in as needed) is Pottery (for granaries and cottages), Code of Laws (to found Confucianism and allow Caste System to run specialists), and Math (to boost chops toward the AP and as a prereq to Civil Service), then bulb most of Civil Service with the Great Prophet we'll get from having the Oracle.

    68-85 (1280-750 BC, Xcal)--PPP thru T87--we try to stick to this (for awhile). Our northern axe deals with a barb warrior, archer, and axe. Are hordes of barbs being funneled toward us by Babylon's Great Wall? Meanwhile, our carefully planned micromanagement is slowly falling apart because of the barb threat. We get Pottery (T72) for granaries and cottages, and Fishing (T74) so we can build a workboat to explore and see if the whole world is filled with Toku clones. We also gain research visibility on Japan--he's working on HBR despite apparent lack of horses. Logs and 2 map screenies. We finally build a workboat to explore and then, on T76, Japan attacks with a 4-unit stack near Drona. Then on T77, a barb archer and axe appear in the north. :wallbash: Toku's stack crosses the river, threatening our gold, and we see 3 more axes headed our way (pix). Toku suicides his stack against Drona but Vijay (City#5 in the north) falls to barbs after bad RNG luck (pix). We meet our 3rd Toku, this one from Egypt, on T80. We need archers to cheaply defend our cities so we research Hunting (T83) and Archery (T84). Confucianism is founded somewhere on T84 :( but we retake Vijay and all our cities are now secure. Report and logs for T81-85.

    Back on T68 we'd hoped to get CoL by T87, but we've already lost the race to found Confucianism. We decide to get Math and Construction so we can attack Japan with catapults, but in the meantime we'll assemble/whip axes (and a few archers for city defense), take Osaka if the opportunity presents itself, and send a stack to pillage.

    T85-104 (750-525 BC, kcd)--Report & pix for 85-94. After completing Bolly's library we run a couple scientists and manage on T87 to pop a Great Scientist, who is used for an academy. We clear out the barbs north of Vijay and send a stack into Japan to do some pillaging, and Osaka is reinforced with far too many units for us to attack it. The Temple of Artemis is BIAFAL T88, we meet Shaka/Toku on T89 (from the north), and Hammy DoWs us on T94. Fortunately, Toku/Japan takes peace without any demands. We get Math on T95 and continue with Construction while fending off some weak attacks by Hammy in the north, taking peace on T100. We found a 6th city N of Drona with the deer and cows (Holy Cow, T97) while Drona starts building the Apostolic Palace. A Great Prophet builds the Confucian shrine in Bolly T100. T94-104 report and pix.

    T104-121 (525 BC-150 AD, AAA)--Logs to T115, picture of Drona/Osaka, and some Demo screenies. The TGL, GL, and 'Mids fall to the AI but we finish the Apostolic Palace on T113 in Drona! :) After getting a good start on that under OrgRel we revolt to Theocracy for our war buildup; now that we have Construction we start on catapults. Meanwhile, we found our 7th city (Pataliputra) south by the bananas/crabs/marble. In the second phase of this set (pix, BUFFY log, upload log) we try a bold (risky) direct attack on Osaka on T120. We capture it on T121 having killed 14 units and lost 2 cats and 6 axes. Hammy, of course, immediately DoWs us but we should be able to hold him off in the north. Another Great Prophet is born in Bolly on T119, and we use our first Great General on a MedicIII scout.

    T121-138 (150-560 AD, Trystero)--T121-130 report and pix plus upload log1,log2, and BUFFY log. After a little healing and reinforcement, we march from Osaka to Kyoto, bombarding and then capturing on T130. :) We get a 2nd GG, but our units go on strike for one turn (127) because we're fielding a large army while also trying to finish CoL (T125) and Meditation (T129) ASAP so we can use our Great Prophet to partially bulb Civil Service (which we finish on T131). While this is going on we met Elizabeth (another Toku) who has a Wonder-crazy capital and far too many techs. Hanging Gardens, MoM, and the Colossus are now gone.

    In phase2 of Trys's turnset we finish Civil Service (T131) and Sailing (T132), the latter so we can settle the island off our west coast. We heal a little in Kyoto and then capture Tokyo on T136. Just then, Hatty shows up with a stack of catapults and war chariots after several turns of WHEOOHRN. :eek: T137 pix, upload log, BUFFY log, and turn report with LOTS of pix. If Hatty attacks we can't hold Tokyo so we withdraw and faintly hope that Toku is the target. We give peace to Toku for Alpha, IW, and HBR, and take peace from Hammy for CoL. (We can hold Vijay but think that peace now will be more useful.) We found Varanasi next to the sheep on the island and... Hatty DoWs Toku! :D T138 report, logs, pix.

    We've decided to pursue a Cultural victory; other teams are very likely ahead on the Dom/Conquest approach and Religious looks awfully difficult, although we'll keep that option in mind. The general plan is to neutralize our neighbors (Toku and Hammy) by capturing key cities, infecting a couple with Hinduism (for diplo/espi reasons) and then gifting them back, steal techs, use some GPs for bulbing (Artists for culture bombing), and leverage Hindu buildings for hammers (AP), beakers (U of Sankore), and gold (Spiral Minaret). We, uh, don't actually have the techs to build the latter two Wonders yet.

    T138-147 (560-740 AD, SH)--Report and logs. We start buttering up Shaka and newly-met Genghis Khan by trading/giving them CoL. We pillage around Tokyo, build research, and manage to get Paper on T141; Bolly starts the University of Sankore, and whips it to finish on T148. In other cities, we spread Hinduism and build several temples and monasteries.

    Change in plans. ;) With Liz hogging so many Wonders, especially the Sistine Chapel, and racing ahead in tech, a Cultural win is looking rather difficult. We move Religious Victory back to the top, with Cultural as backup. Happiness is limiting our growth so we're going for Monarchy/Hered Rule next, which is on the path to Divine Right and the Spiral Minaret. Our longer term aim is Banking so we can run Mercantilism, the Favorite Civic of the Tokus. We'll also get more serious about trying for open borders or capturing/infecting cities to spread Hinduism. With a better understanding of Toku's personality, we also realize that tech trading is pretty hopeless for all but a few techs; others must be stolen or researched by us.

    T147-168 (740-1080 AD, kcd)--Report and pix, log, and more pix. We discover Monarchy and revolt to Hereditary Rule to fix our happiness problems. Continue with Metal Casting and Machinery, and 1/2 of Optics after stealing Compass from Toku. We fend off a large attack by Hammy on Vijay. A Great Sci is born in Bolly, not the Prophet we wanted to bulb Divine Right. We meet Cyrus, leaving only 2 (teamed) AI. We spread Hinduism to all our cities, including 3 new ones, and finish the Moai in Varanasi on the island, and a couple spies are exploring the north and east.

    Our economy is getting back on its feet so teching is a faster. Hammy needs killin' but we're poised to make friends with most others once we get Banking and run Mercantilism. Hindu infection and an AP victory look the way to go.

    T168-186 (Xcal)--PPP part1, report, PPP part2, report, PPP part3, report. We help Liz take Toku's last city, but not before founding a new one and gifting it to him for peace so we can steal techs from him and keep him alive for other AIs to hate. Liz, however, takes that city and kills him off, but now we have a great city from which to steal techs from Liz, who is the tech leader! :) We meet Mansa (the last AI) on T179 and use the AP to start a holy war against Hammy, whom we've now crippled in the north during the defense of Vijay. We research Banking and gift it to other AIs so we can all run Mercantilism and gain "favorite civic" diplo points.

    T186-207 ( -1470, kcd)--PPP, report for T187-195, pix, report and pix to T207, log. We capture Babylon and Hammy is eliminated. :) We steal a whole mess o' techs from Liz (Chem, MilSci, Printing Press) and there is much complicated diplomatic plotting.

    T207-216 (Trystero)--PPP, T207-211 report, log, T214-216 report. We try the "Devious City" ploy: cause 2 of Hatty's city to revolt to collapse their borders, found a city on her shore, chop/build a caravel, and load it with a Hindu missionary to explore/infect HC. It doesn't work. :( Hatty's borders don't collapse. But... we see an Incan caravel so at least we now know he has a coastal city that can be reached. We steal Replaceable Parts from Liz.

    T216-225 (-1575, AAA)--Morale is low and time is short, but we will not yield. We prepare to attack Hatty in order to take Satsuma and gain sea access to HC (and we hope MM). We tech to Music and trade it around, which is enough to get OB with MM. Log T216-220. We research Steel (T225) and finally infect Kago (Liz's city near us) with Hinduism, which greatly reduces our espionage costs. Log 220-225.

    T225-232 (1575-1610, Xcal)--Report and log. Now that we have cannon, and Hatty has sent her megastack (50+ units) off to fight Cyrus, we declare war and capture 3 cities, including Satsuma, gaining sea access to HC so we can build a caravel and spread missionaries.

    T232-252 (1610-1710, kcd)--As we'd hoped, HC will accept Satsuma as a gift so we don't need to bother with a caravel to infect him with Hinduism. We beat up Hatty a little more and then give peace for her map, which shows we can not reach MM via sea from Satsuma (report). We steal Physics and build an airship to find MM (Report). Golly, getting to MM will be ... difficult. We invent new curses for Neil. (j/k) ;) Teleportation looks best--kcd does tests to work out the details and hatches a plan (PPP). It works!
     
  4. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    and one more. Carry on.
     
  5. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

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    Checking in.

    Hi everybody, thanks for having me. I look forward to playing on a team whose name I can spell.

    Edit: Very preliminary thoughts:
    • I highly doubt the map/save would be designed such that we could not be first to Polytheism if we settled Dehli on turn 0 and worked a 1C tile (the corn). The question is then whether we move the settler. The only directions we could do so and settle on turn 0 are 1N or 1E (assuming we are not going to settle on the corn).
    • I’m not certain, but I suspect the tile N of the stone is coast (but it could just be more hills).
    • The impact of the additional AI really depends on the map type. My tests of these settings on pangea were much more cramped than Habitus’ inland sea test map.
     
  6. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

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    Checking in. I created a worldbuilder file and test game.

    Here's what kcd said in private message. I didn't see any responses.


     
  7. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

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    Personally, I'm inclined to play the agriculture gambit. We'd know quickly if we were going to lose, and it would pay off in spades if it worked.

    I support moving the warrior 1NE to see what is up there. The stone must be on a river, to get the 1C that is showing. Notice also that the mistakenly posted minimap shows land to the NE. My favorite spot for settling, barring new stuff, is 1E.

    Even if we go polytheism first, we have two hills to mine, so our fast worker would be mining away from the beginning. Regardless of technology choice, I support worker first.
     
  8. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    I like settling on the Marble, because of the hills and the river.
    If the stone is on the ocean, then it might be a good Moai city. If we are crowded, then settling inland first is also better.
    If stone is on a river, then choice isn't so clear, but marble still seems better to me.
    If we settle 1E, stone and marble are in BFC. But you lose the city tile production advantage.
    Agree, warrior NE seems as good a direction as any.
     
  9. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

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    Stone can't be on ocean, because it has 1C
     
  10. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    Checking In.

    I think a few test games using various opponents to see when Polytheism can be expected to be taken by the AI would be wise before we get too entusastic about Agri Gambit.

    Some FIN and some Religion-mongers and some starting with Myst, and maybe some of all three as opponents. Just to see what the min/max number of turns to found Polytheism can be expected to be.

    @XCal... wasn't "Unrestricted Leaders" one of the settings, or am I mixing up with the last game?

    I'll send out a PM reminder to team-members who maybe aren't used to checking in here.
     
  11. High King J.J.

    High King J.J. Prince

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    Checking in too.
    Thanks for the PM heads-up, KCD.

    The maintenance thread says:
    "Options: Well, LOTS. Lets see, there's: No City Razing, City Flip After Conquest, Aggressive AI, No Tech Brokering, No Vassal States, No Goody Huts, No Events, Unrestricted Leaders. "

    When I saw the starting position my first impulse was to settle 1E to get both stone and marble in the BFC. Upon reading other inputs I started to lean on settling on one of them. In fact maybe we might consider the second city on the other PH? Or maybe not, everything can change once we scout our surrounding terrain.
    Initially I favored the stone hill for Stonehenge but now I wonder how many cities do we have when we start the Oracle? That is better known by more experienced players, I often fail when trying to oracle anything anyway.
    To cut my ramblings :old: short(er) I agree that either PH is possible, both being on the (same?) river. If we are going to build the Henge then maybe the stony hill?
    I tend to like building wonders, I hope we build many:drool: but I don't expect to play the early turns (might be wise to have wiser player(s) doing so...)
    But I'm sure others are more experienced in these opening moves.
    Personally I hope for a nice continent all for ourselves, connected by a mountain range to the other landmass where the aggressive AI's are busy slaughtering oneanother while we tech and wonder ourselves to some victory condition. One can always hope...:rolleyes:

    High :king: J.J.
     
  12. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    Personally, I think the only competitive VC's will be Dom or Relig.

    Priority #1 is scouting, so whoever loses the starting warrior to a bear this time is going to be in the dog-house.:mischief:

    Relig requires a big Hindu pop, build the AP asap, relig spread to friends, declare war on heathens, let them capture a crap hindu city, and vote to win.

    Missionary spamming.

    Oracle for Theo. Bulbing Theo with GPro is another option but slower (even for egypt which can hire priests with monuments).

    Optics is the highest tech needed. (Missionaries can go on caravels). Might need astro to infect those who won't give open borders by city gifting (or losing in war). Civs using Theorcracy you can gift a missionary and spread anyhow, if you have OB. On a land map you don't even need that, but barb issues could make galleys/caravels useful for spreading anyhow. Timing of infecting is very important... we can discuss that as we know something about the map.

    A little trickier that you will want to avoid anyone switching to hindu to be your opponent... so found as few religions as possible ourselves (that would be 2). Ideally, they would all be in free religion, but that aint happenin', so you need enough +diplo to counter -2 (aggr AI), normal hidden modifier (-2 to +2), and the -3 or more for "your religion sucks". Add to that all the demands to change religion that must be denied. The only way to get this much +diplo is joint war, tech gifts, liberating cities, resource gifts, and giving in to tribute demands. I suspect Neil has made it hard. But to win fast with Relig one must push hard and focused from the outstart. Hedging your bets will put you in the middle of the pack, whether you bet right or wrong. We should not "assume" that the obstacles will be unsurmountable. A BC relig VC is doable on almost any map. Once you are ready with AP, you go to domination mode and kill anyone who doesn't like you enough. (I like that part :D ).

    For Relig VC, you'd want the extra 2 hammers from a PH marble or stone. A gems/silver/gold also makes a huge difference. And you want trees to cut for building AP in one turn. Then you need a couple cities that can make missionaries quickly, and some escorts due to barbs. Focus on population growth. Tech not important... can bulb a few techs to use as gifts as needed. Only need one friend in normal game, probably need two or more here.

    Either that.... or we set course for Domination/conquest (IMO). In this case, we want to rush someone with axes/chariots. Wait for mace for first conquest and we are too slow. So again trees. The more, the better. Best spot to settle is the ph with the most forest around.

    Depending on map, any VC could be competitive. Relig fail goes over to culture or diplo or dom, usually. Not as fast as setting out on one of those from the start, but middle of the packi-ish. Dom/conq do not fail, but can take a lot of time if the map/opponents is unfavorable. The earliest possible for culture or diplo, though is probably around 1500AD, though. I don't see them being competitive for laurels in any case.
     
  13. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Checking in.

    If it is feasible to go agriculture first one will get really far ahead compared to not (really really far ahead ;)). I hope the decision on this is going to be clear-cut and teams will agree, because if not SGOTM this time around is almost a rock-paper-scissors contest.

    Fingers crossed for agri first being either unreasonable or obvious in testing.

    Ah, and 2000th post. [party]
     
  14. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Hi all. I didn't bother listing the unrestricted leaders condition because it won't matter until we meet one of the AIs and then it will be obvious. At least this time we'll know who's who so I'm going to add that info as we gain it to the Reference post. I listed our civ's attributes assuming that we really are "Gandhi of the Indians" as the intro post said. But perhaps we shouldn't trust that 100%--you know how Neil can be. :mischief: Speaking of mischief, it wouldn't surprise me if there's some "feature" of this game that makes it especially hard to get a religious win. Domination will also be a bit trickier than usual because there's no vassalage. How big a deal is City Flip After Conquest? No Tech Brokering means we can trade away our techs without worrying about them being spread to other AIs, but I haven't thought about the implications beyond that. And we need to remember about No City Razing.

    As for settling, I'm terrible at deciding where. But it would help to know exactly what city center "bonuses", if any, we get for settling on various tiles. I'm pretty sure--as you all apparently are--that we get an extra hammer when settling on stone/marble plains tiles (plus another hammer if the plains tile is a hill). Would we get an extra food on the floodplains? Do we get an extra commerce by settling on the river? (Tsk, I need to find a good reference for that info. Does anybody know of one?) I'll try to get the Reference page in decent shape today, following the lines of SGOTM14. Please let me know of any additions or modifications you'd like.
     
  15. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    Thoughts on the "No Trade Brokering": If we see an AI is 1turn from getting a technology we have a monopoly on, we could gift them that tech (saving them all of one turn to tech it), and thus prevent them from ever trading it away to someone else.

    At least I think that's what it means. Have to test it. It could mean that only we are prevented from trading away techs that we did not research ourselves. Not sure whether the restriction applies to AI too. Anybody know?

    City flip after capture is only important when your attack falters. Its very hard to hold a city you just captured once it comes out of revolt if the other civ still has lots of culture borders touching it. A LOT of units required to hold it. But if you have lots of units, why are you stopping? :lol:

    We get an extra food if we settle on the corn, but not on the FP. We get two extra hammers settling on a PH+quarry resource. It also saves the worker turns to get the resource. By not having to work the quarry to get the hammers from a quarry, you free up a citizen for working another tile, too. So even if 2 hammers is less than the 4 you'd get working the tile, you probably more than make up for it. Its a very fast start, especially for getting out the first worker. Depends on what you want to acheive, as always.
     
  16. SteelHorse

    SteelHorse Deity

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    Hi All - Checking in.

    Chris - thanks as always for the map. Will do a bit of playing.

    It has been a while since I played getting/adopting an early religion. I am guessing with 8 AI that there will be fair degree of religious divergence and we will have the ability to spread some ourselves.

    I agree with kcd that Relig or Dom are the likely VCs. Does this imply that we should start spreading our religion early and often? Dom to get some allies and Relig to get votes?

    Agri first sounds interesting but risky - what sort of testing would prove it one way or the other? Should we check on other Emp games to see how early it has gone in the past?
     
  17. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

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    The No Tech Brokering option means you can only trade techs which you research yourself. So your idea would work.

    It is my impression that this and No Vassals is meant to slow down Con/Dom wins. At least we don't have to worry about the AI peace vassaling to each other.

    Polytheism can go very fast. In one test I saw Boudica of the Aztecs found Hinduism on turn 8.
     
  18. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Oh ho, that is devilishly clever, kcd! :devil: And thanks for pointing out the extra plains-hill hammer.
     
  19. High King J.J.

    High King J.J. Prince

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    One thing. I just read the Apostolic Palace Guide. Since people smarter than I think religious victory may be the ticket, I recommend that thread. I learned a ton of things I never knew, like what conditions must be met before religious victory can be voted on.
    Maybe others already know this stuff in which case I reveal only my ignorance but just in case, read it if you like.

    I feel like a man among titans, Civ-experience wise.
     
  20. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

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    Cities get 2 food, 1 hammer, 2 commerce by default.
    To get more, the base terrain (and resources) needs to provide it.
    Plains hill provides 2 hammers, the marble/stone plains hills 3 (plains + hill + resource).
    Overlays (if that's the term) are removed when you settle. Thus forests and flood plains don't provide any extra resources. Question isn't really what bonuses you get, but if you get to keep what you see (remembering the default is the minumum for each item).
    There was a good thread on this in the general forum I read a couple years ago. (yeah, a link would be more helpful).

    As stated, yes no tech brokering applies to everyone.
    Kept your other two paragraphs and bolded sentences as they are worth repeating. Good point about the cultural pressure not being a problem if keep going. I had a lot of cultural pressure issues in a recent BOTM that I need to post about. ;)


    @HKJJ - yes I've read that article. We all should if we go AP path. I've only managed to get one AP victory, but I understand the theory.
     

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