SGOTM 16 - Maple Sporks

[astre]

My worry is not about missing out on 20 gold, but on the GLH itself.

Nocho,Where is you gambit fury?
BTW, i think we are pretty safe with a GLH before T80 as all tested showed that the AI built it after T90.

I've said it before (and will probably say it again) but I think we spend too much time discussing tactics/micro at the start of the game and not enough time thinking about long term strategy first then debating tactics to achieve the strategy.

for me, the strat was only short term until we know more about the outside.
but the first cornerstones seemed (to me?) to be:

- tech alphabet steal IW
- build an army to crush brenus and get his shrine (double objective)
- tech litterature build TGL and NE
at this point, think again

but some prefered to tech toward mathematics before.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

If we scout well Sailing is obviously great for coastal trade-routes.
So it depends on how soon we hit rival cities. I think we should leave this as a general note to the player playing. If he sees a rival city and can setup Open Borders go for it! If not then go for masonry.

I suggest we get a scouting boat out to explore the coast. Maybe the galley after it has dropped of the settler on the one-tile island, or a separate WB if we do not want our galley ending up at the end of the world. Circumnavigation bonus will be big on this map!

As to short term vs long term strategy, a mix is always good. Let's keep flexible and not look to much forwards into the foggy future, but make decisions that we can handle right now and not negatively affect future strategies. For now that means getting GLH, getting cities up and improved, getting the necessary techs, and choosing our attitude against Ramses and Brennus

 

[DwarfSleepy]

well it's pretty mutch detailed in my previous post.
I can detailled it, just tell me what data to add.

Could you maybe summarise your ppp with the points that are clear and the points that still need to be discussed to get clarity?

It should contain (at this stage of the game) also all worker actions and unit moves. Later in the game we can relax those)

Could we aim to get a consensus in a day or two to play another set?

 

[astre]

well, the draft PPP contained the rought ideas data on worker actions.
I detailled a bit more in this copy:

went massonery / sailling/ writting
prioritise food over hammer unless max pop.

paris: (settler) / warrior/ char (1 pop whip)/ pyr (T84)
worker: farm FP, road to maize (for lyon), mine the free hill, chop silk, chop grassland forest, chop plain forest along the river.

orleans: (WB) / warrior/char/worker (2 pop whip)/GW (81 fail gold)/LH (2pop whip)/GLH (T78 or 79 (-925))
worker: farm FP, go to lyon.
2nd worker : mine free hill, preschop the 2 forested hills /chop thoses hills during GLH time.

Lyon: warrior */ settler
worker: chop forest hill W of lyon/ mine this hill/ cottages...

For units, i planed to use builded warriors for military police and do not move them.
use the builded WB for a short trip around the island before going to settle right on time of lyons pop border.
The warrior in faction will go a bit in the south as soon as lyon is protected by another warior which will take his place.
The builded charriot: sent 1 in the north and 1 for the south est (aka try to find the sailling path to brenus)

before I give more details (aka timeline), I need to know if it is massonery or sailling first.
It change pretty mutch everything.

A point we could also work on is how to use population in cities. I tended to focus more on food that hammer (obviously using upgraded tiles first) for more whip stuffs, but maybe i was wrong. Maybe i should focus more on hammers...

for exemple when orleans pop next turn, i put the 3rd guy on the un improved FP.
When paris finish his settler, i put the 3rd guy on unimproved FP instead of mined hill.
When i start the wonders, i come from a whip, so i work the farmed FP before the mined hills...
is it correct?

 

[Ororo]

Things I dislike about the plan (the rest sounds good):

Masonry before Sailing delays GLH - not good. From what I've noticed, majority feels the same.

Working unimproved tiles - it doesn't make sense to me. If we wanna grow, then let's grow into improved tiles. If we wanna grow into plains mine, why don't we just work it straight away? (Though it makes sense to switch into improved floodplain once that's done)

Building GW for failgold. It's far too early to concern ourselves with such stuff. What we really need are workers/settlers/warriors(chariots). Especially getting that island city up and running once GLH is done is really important. Sengir has confirmed my estimation that it will add 9 commerce from trade routes alone.

I say dislike because I don't know for certain if I'm right (can't test to prove my thesis) but my gut feeling says so.

 

[Sengir]

Did a testrun with Masonry first; got GLH on turn 73, Mids at 83. I did quite some different things then you did, so I'll post a the details tonight.

I've got to do at least one more testrun with Sailing first. I think I can shave of some turns that way as well, making for a better comparison.

(also, the exact date in the real game may differ a bit because of the differences in techpace because of met AI's)

 

[astre]

Things I dislike about the plan (the rest sounds good):

Working unimproved tiles - it doesn't make sense to me. If we wanna grow, then let's grow into improved tiles. If we wanna grow into plains mine, why don't we just work it straight away? (Though it makes sense to switch into improved floodplain once that's done)

maybe because there is no more improved tile? Had the choice between 3F and forest places...
maybe because we have a choice between a 4H (improved mine) and 3F/1G (unimproved FP) and i chosed 3F

please take a look at the map, you will understand

Anyway, this is why i asked. Is it the right strat?

 

[Ondskan]

Ok guys let's roll!

 

[Sengir]

And with Sailing before Masonry, I can get GLH at turn 71 and Mids at turn 85/86.

And again Masonry first: GLH at turn 74, Mids at turn 83. (got Sailing a turn later this run, because I met less AI).

Another important difference between Sailing first and Masonry first, is that Paris can build units until Masonry comes in, resulting in more chariots (or a granary/barracks) as it has more production then Orleans, which makes me feel a lot safer.

 

[astre]

hey sengir, don't you want to play my set

great job

 

[Sengir]

Masonry First PPP:
Tech: Masonry > Sailing > Writing
Paris: (settler) > warrior > chariots until Masonry is in (no whipping)> Mids
Paris Worker: farm FP > Mine free hill > chop > chop > chop > chop

Orleans: WB until growth > Worker > finish WB > warrior > Chariots until Sailing is in > LH > two-pop-whip > GLH
Orleans Worker: farm FP > cottage Lyon > cottage Lyon > chop plain forest into GLH
Orleans Worker2: mine grass hill > pre-chop > pre-chop > chop > chop > mine hill

Lyons: warrior > settler




Sailing First PPP
Tech: Sailing > Masonry > Writing
Paris: (settler) > warrior > chariots until Masonry is in (no whipping) maybe gran/rax> Mids
Paris Worker: farm FP > Mine free hill > pre-chop > pre-chop > chop > chop

Orleans: WB until growth > Worker > finish WB > warrior > Chariot > Chariot > LH > two-pop-whip > GLH
Orleans Worker: farm FP > cottage Lyon > cottage Lyon > chop plain forest into GLH > chop forest into Mids
Orleans Worker2: mine grass hill > pre-chop > pre-chop > chop > chop > mine hill

Lyons: warrior > settler


In both cases some tile juggling was necessary to get Orleans ready for a nice overflow 2pop whip.
I prefer Sailing first. I don't want to lose a wonder race because we didn't have enough units to defend our improvements.

I'd prefer you play until Sailing is in, then pause to check on the micro, so that we can get max whip overflow into GLH.

 

[Sengir]

hey sengir, don't you want to play my set

great job

I don't mind either way. It's not too hard a set to test and I've got some time on my hand atm, so I can run tests easily enough. The problem is I can't outline exact MM, as there can be differences in techpace (even in testgames run from the same base-save), so it will have to be adjusted by the person playing the live save. So you might have to change a chariot build with warrior, to get the timing right. Or switch halfway through a build, if that's what get's a better overflow into a wonder.

But the same will probably happen when testing for the next set (though maybe a bit less, as we GLH and Mids will preoccupy most of that I suppose, still barbs might screw up worker micro, for which you'll then have to adjust on the fly).

 

[nocho]

And sorry, no time now to update the map, it'll have to wait until the evening.

Barça - Madrid messed up my evening plans. I'm sorry to say I have a rather busy week ahead of me, so won't be able to do anything from the civ comp. Maybe some chitchat in between working hours, but that's it unfortunately. Anyway, happy to see that doesn't impede the testing.

 

[Ororo]

Barça - Madrid messed up my evening plans.

What a great match that was! If only it hadn't screwed my plans do some german e-learning.
Were you actually on the stadium?

 

[nocho]

What a great match that was! If only it hadn't screwed my plans do some german e-learning.
Were you actually on the stadium?

No, much better, in a bar. That way you can drink more while watching the game.

 

[Ororo]

Wise words.

 

[astre]

So sengir prefered sailling first.
It's ok for me.
I'll play his PPP:

Sailing First PPP
Tech: Sailing > Masonry > Writing
Paris: (settler) > warrior > chariots until Masonry is in (no whipping) maybe gran/rax> Mids
Paris Worker: farm FP > Mine free hill > pre-chop > pre-chop > chop > chop

Orleans: WB until growth > Worker > finish WB > warrior > Chariot > Chariot > LH > two-pop-whip > GLH
Orleans Worker: farm FP > cottage Lyon > cottage Lyon > chop plain forest into GLH > chop forest into Mids
Orleans Worker2: mine grass hill > pre-chop > pre-chop > chop > chop > mine hill

Lyons: warrior > settler

I'll try to do tonight a ppp with timelapse up to masonry

 

[Sengir]

Sounds good to me.

One thing I didn't mention: the warriors should stay in the cities for MP. The chariots can be used for fogbusting/scouting (I prefer Fogbusting atm, especially the north as it should be possible to do it with just 1 or 2 units I think).

I'm not sure what you mean with your last sentence.

 

[Ondskan]

Well since we are going sailing first someone should be scouting at least one shoreline the rest can be used for fogbusting!

 

[astre]

maybe time lapse is not the correct word ^^

I wanted to make a try of your PPP while writting down turns of each achevements.
But i feel like i will not be able to do it.
I'll see.