SGOTM 16 - Maple Sporks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
How long can we afford to postpone settling horses? We could settle the FP site first for te extra commerce, and research pottery first. Then we could send our next settler for the horses. With the amount of improvements that we will be needing when rexing, we may want to cram in an additional worker somewhere too.
Did a testrun for the wonders:
SH: 2280BC / t43
GW: 1360BC / t66
Or: 975BC / t76
Mids: 600BC / t91
ToA: 500BC / t95
GLH: 200BC / t107
Didn't build any wonders myself. Problem was, I had such a great start (2 Corn, Pigs, 6FP's and popped a Gold), that I just had to finish that game
. Which meant I had only time for 1 test.
SH: 2280BC / t43
GW: 1360BC / t66
Or: 975BC / t76
Mids: 600BC / t91
ToA: 500BC / t95
GLH: 200BC / t107
Didn't build any wonders myself. Problem was, I had such a great start (2 Corn, Pigs, 6FP's and popped a Gold), that I just had to finish that game
. Which meant I had only time for 1 test.A test run that fits nicely in a picture.
So tech went Fishing > Pottery > Sailing > Masonry > Myst > Med > Priesthood and got GLH on T80, Oracle T87 and Pyramids T88. Took MC from Oracle but might have been CoL had I gone writing instead of hunting after PH. 4 cities, 3 workers.
Oracle is obviously totally dependent on what the AIs will do. In any case, it's clear that if we go GLH first, Oracle can't be started until really late, actually finished PH after constructing the GLH itself. Note that with Ramses we have an industrious competitor (he built GW and SH in the test save). Oracle went into sheep city too by the way, while Paris was on mids.
Other thing with the map is happiness. A bit tough to manage, but once we get mids we should be okay.
So tech went Fishing > Pottery > Sailing > Masonry > Myst > Med > Priesthood and got GLH on T80, Oracle T87 and Pyramids T88. Took MC from Oracle but might have been CoL had I gone writing instead of hunting after PH. 4 cities, 3 workers.
Oracle is obviously totally dependent on what the AIs will do. In any case, it's clear that if we go GLH first, Oracle can't be started until really late, actually finished PH after constructing the GLH itself. Note that with Ramses we have an industrious competitor (he built GW and SH in the test save). Oracle went into sheep city too by the way, while Paris was on mids.
Other thing with the map is happiness. A bit tough to manage, but once we get mids we should be okay.
725BC is a very, very late Oracle, even for Emperor. I can't believe I'm the one saying this but maybe we should skip it completely in favor of getting to Alpha/Aesthetics faster? Ramses is very likely the hottest candidate for getting it and what do you know - he might grab a religion for us (and build a juicy shrine eventually).
but maybe we should skip it completely in favor of getting to Alpha/Aesthetics faster? Ramses is very likely the hottest candidate for getting it and what do you know - he might grab a religion for us (and build a juicy shrine eventually).Yes, I do think we have to choose either GLH or Oracle. If we go for both, writing will come very late too and hence our first GSs. Pig city is ideal for running 2 scientists soon.
I'm wonderng about gambling on Ramses building the mids for us.
And whether he wouldn't be a better spy target than Brennus. I think he might actually be closer by.
I'm wonderng about gambling on Ramses building the mids for us.
And whether he wouldn't be a better spy target than Brennus. I think he might actually be closer by.As I suggested early one I do not think that we should go for GLH considering the amount of unrelated research we need make.
Research we get for free once we make Aest and Alpha.
By the way how do you make such excellent testing maps that are basically looking like this one but still aren't? Do you go for a random map and then add/form an extension that looks like ours?
Glad to see ware doing cottages in the south, I think that's the best to.
After we have goten to Aest and Alpha I suggest going for Great Library and then straight for currency, not trading literature and getting that extra boost of instant cash that currency entails. After that I think we are still safe to go for Music or perhaps even push the normal research path if things have developed increasingly well and stay ahead there.
edit: No Oracle shouldn't research Alpha. We should be doing Alpha manually, getting Aesthetics instantly and then possibly forcing a wonder through even without marble or gold or possibly getting marble or gold before we get the tech (so it's a bit cheaper).
With my plan, by skipping much of the naval technology and other redundant things like masonry we might even shoot of Alphabet so early that someone doesn't even have writing. Regardless we'll have Alphabet to trade with everyone until we are fully teched up. (excluding perhaps fishing)
Research we get for free once we make Aest and Alpha.
By the way how do you make such excellent testing maps that are basically looking like this one but still aren't? Do you go for a random map and then add/form an extension that looks like ours?
Glad to see ware doing cottages in the south, I think that's the best to.
After we have goten to Aest and Alpha I suggest going for Great Library and then straight for currency, not trading literature and getting that extra boost of instant cash that currency entails. After that I think we are still safe to go for Music or perhaps even push the normal research path if things have developed increasingly well and stay ahead there.
edit: No Oracle shouldn't research Alpha. We should be doing Alpha manually, getting Aesthetics instantly and then possibly forcing a wonder through even without marble or gold or possibly getting marble or gold before we get the tech (so it's a bit cheaper).
With my plan, by skipping much of the naval technology and other redundant things like masonry we might even shoot of Alphabet so early that someone doesn't even have writing. Regardless we'll have Alphabet to trade with everyone until we are fully teched up. (excluding perhaps fishing)
Sure, but we won't be able to get that sweet early Aesthetics which almost certainly guarantees a wonder, maybe two before we finish Alphabet, trade aesthetics and risk loosing that race - even a small headstart on two might be good enough. Sure, not as good wonders as GLH but still wonders. Not to mention the extra tech.
An alternative is to skip Masonry, go for Priesthood, start Oracle, tech Sailing, build a lighthouse while teching writting, get Alphabet with Oracle and then go for GLH while having traded for Masonry.
this probably means skipping pottery, instead trading for it.
An alternative is to skip Masonry, go for Priesthood, start Oracle, tech Sailing, build a lighthouse while teching writting, get Alphabet with Oracle and then go for GLH while having traded for Masonry.
this probably means skipping pottery, instead trading for it.
Ondskan...your plan is great and everything (I would probably choose in under normal circumstances) , but it is not viable!
No Fishing, No GLH, No Cottages... how on earth are you going to research stuff? Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Alpha - these techs are worth say 800
, which frankly is impossible to research without some sort of economic edge.
No Fishing, No GLH, No Cottages... how on earth are you going to research stuff? Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Alpha - these techs are worth say 800
, which frankly is impossible to research without some sort of economic edge.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
In my 1st test Oracle was BIADL on turn 76; 4 turns before I finished GLH. I tried going writing>fishing>sailing>masonry>alpha. Was well behind nocho in getting to 'Mids. Ramesses and Brennus each have different religions. One other good thing is their favorite civic is OR.
Norvin_Green
Emperor
@Ondskan - for the test map I knew it was hemispheres, so generated a map with that info plus Louis. Luckily the first map had us more or less in the NE corner (similar to real game). Then I took graph paper and plotted out all the tiles we could see. Rivers come next (they are by far the biggest pain) then all other terrain. Found the 2 AI and replaced them with Brennus & Ramesses. Then I played from there (wish the Google doc had worked, would have eliminated all the guess work) Voila!
Ran another test and was closer to nocho's build times for GLH & 'Mids (but still not faster). Oracle went turn 77 in that game. Brennus founded 2 religions and kept switching back & forth between them. Yikes!
Ran another test and was closer to nocho's build times for GLH & 'Mids (but still not faster). Oracle went turn 77 in that game. Brennus founded 2 religions and kept switching back & forth between them. Yikes!
Ondskan...your plan is great and everything (I would probably choose in under normal circumstances) , but it is not viable!
No Fishing, No GLH, No Cottages... how on earth are you going to research stuff? Mysticism, Meditation, Priesthood, Alpha - these techs are worth say 800
Well I'm ok with fishing
But yeah let's not research alpha then, let's oracle it and then trade for sailing and masonry and hope we get lucky with a late GLH?
If not then I still agree with Nocho, skip the Oracle and all religious techs, go for GLH (pottery included) and then Alphabet or Aesthetics. We don't have marble anyway. One of the biggest wastes is going for both, getting priest, not finishing Oracle. That's just Good Game and Good Night right there.
@Ondskan: I'm not sure why you think GLH is not strong on this map. Would you care to elaborate?
I don't mind skipping Oracle completely. If we let the AI build the Oracle > more GPriest points for them > bigger chance of capturing shrines. Focus on GLH + Rex (+mids I suppose)
I don't mind skipping Oracle completely. If we let the AI build the Oracle > more GPriest points for them > bigger chance of capturing shrines. Focus on GLH + Rex (+mids I suppose)
It's not that it's just that we don't start with Mining or Fishing and we're not financial (to use he extra sea gold) so I just think an extra medieval tech is worth more, especially if this means we can still squeeze out some other sub-par wonders.
It's not a biggie.
It's not a biggie.
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
I'm wondering about gambling on Ramses building the mids for us.
He might or might not be. Without knowing, I definitely would not switch the EP to Ramses. When we see both their borders we can still decide whether we want to switch and whether the closer distance makes up for the backlog in EP spending
DwarfSleepy
The Sleeper
We are at an important decision point in the discussion. The research path and wonder path we take in the near future is important.
I see people chiming in with different ideas, some tested (great), some gut feeling (also valuable). But please, if you have an interesting path you feel strongly about, test it in the test games to show the others your results and the viability of your strategy. That way we can have a discussion on even terms.
I see people chiming in with different ideas, some tested (great), some gut feeling (also valuable). But please, if you have an interesting path you feel strongly about, test it in the test games to show the others your results and the viability of your strategy. That way we can have a discussion on even terms.
Nocho, do you want to play a bit more before I'm UP? (that's the way i understood it but want a confirmation).
Like DS says I'm not sure we are advancing.
I agree that i'm not helping but all your theory and thinkings just overwelm me sometime, so i prefer to read, try to follow you that writting mistakes.
Eventhought, I will try to make some testing tomorow.
I just want to be sure of long term goals. For me, it is to try to reach a SSE path: Mids, TA, TGLibrary (and TGLighthouse because it is broken)
In that objective, i agree that oracle in not a requirement but polytehism is.
and priesthood is only couple of beakers away.
Like DS says I'm not sure we are advancing.
I agree that i'm not helping but all your theory and thinkings just overwelm me sometime, so i prefer to read, try to follow you that writting mistakes.
Eventhought, I will try to make some testing tomorow.
I just want to be sure of long term goals. For me, it is to try to reach a SSE path: Mids, TA, TGLibrary (and TGLighthouse because it is broken)
In that objective, i agree that oracle in not a requirement but polytehism is.
and priesthood is only couple of beakers away.
Testing like this although very interesting to watch breaks the immersion for me and doesn't feel right. But at the same time I will support any decision which is proven to be an effective strategy.
If someone wants to test my attempts at either going Oracle, Alpha and trading for Sailing then GLH:ing or simply going for Oracle and then trying to squeeze out 1-2 wonders from Aesthetics as we research alpha then feel free to do it!
If someone wants to test my attempts at either going Oracle, Alpha and trading for Sailing then GLH:ing or simply going for Oracle and then trying to squeeze out 1-2 wonders from Aesthetics as we research alpha then feel free to do it!
make 2 test games.
In the first, i followed the strategy push GLH but didn't like it.
Too mutch time doing nothing, i didn't went far.
In the second, i teched pottery then oracle then TGL
found 1E of sheep
get oracle in orlean turn 75 after 1 chop/2pop
get temple of artemis in -875 in paris after 3 chop /2 pop
started pyramid T90 only to lose it T91
get GLH in lyon (pig, fish deer city) T99 (2 chop/2 pop)
get colosse in T100 in orlean T100 (3 chop/3pop)
What i get from theses tests:
We have no comerce at all. potery is a top priority. All my 3 cities could be fully cottage easily.
Happiness is a huge factor ! -> we must beline pyramid before everything IMHO.
We have some time to get GLH...
If we have pyramid, TA is a welcome addition (with oracle not so far) but also does GLH .
I propose to continue the set (nocho?) until we got pottery then masonery then make a new test sequence to check which path to choose.
For detailed plan I'd followed on the begining:
-switch to slavery asap after settler
-go worker/ settler in paris
-found 1E of sheep and build warrior/chariot when available.
In the first, i followed the strategy push GLH but didn't like it.
Too mutch time doing nothing, i didn't went far.
In the second, i teched pottery then oracle then TGL
found 1E of sheep
get oracle in orlean turn 75 after 1 chop/2pop
get temple of artemis in -875 in paris after 3 chop /2 pop
started pyramid T90 only to lose it T91
get GLH in lyon (pig, fish deer city) T99 (2 chop/2 pop)
get colosse in T100 in orlean T100 (3 chop/3pop)
What i get from theses tests:
We have no comerce at all. potery is a top priority. All my 3 cities could be fully cottage easily.
Happiness is a huge factor ! -> we must beline pyramid before everything IMHO.
We have some time to get GLH...
If we have pyramid, TA is a welcome addition (with oracle not so far) but also does GLH .
I propose to continue the set (nocho?) until we got pottery then masonery then make a new test sequence to check which path to choose.
For detailed plan I'd followed on the begining:
-switch to slavery asap after settler
-go worker/ settler in paris
-found 1E of sheep and build warrior/chariot when available.
