SGOTM 16 - Maple Sporks

[astre]

Just one stupid question.
Why does noone talk about a city 1S of the insense? only because it is not coastal?
Because, it feel like a real blast (7 FP, 1 wheat)

 

[nocho]

8 FPs even + fresh water! However, not coastal is a bit painful for a commerce city. Also makes GLH less strong. I think wheat can be used for a decent-ish prod site more south.

 

[astre]

well i did test anyway instead of sleep :/

went pottery, fishing, massonery, sailing, myst, poly, writting, alphabet (T99)
Paris: build pyr from T 57 to 84 (3chop, no whip) then ToA from 84 to 99 (2chop, 2pop)
orlean build GLH T77

oracle was built T77 and TGW T72 (I could have built it by turn 65 but used it for failed gold (very precious fail gold btw)

build the city 1S of insense. quite a lot of FP so unhealthy fast but it is a marvel.
I think it will be perfect on the insense. The hill is needed for production.

1N of the sheep make more and more sense to me BTW but i'm afraid it would lead us to tech for hunting mutch earlier than not.

I not sure we can do pyramid + oracle or we have to make a big gambit on GLH (T100)...
Nocho succeed to do it but with oracle T84 while all test run make build it by the AI in T74-78.
While rushing on it I could only do it T76 (just in the gamble area).

I'm afraid we have to forget oracle :/

And i would prefer pottery/massonery/fishing to leave some time to build TGW in orleans (very cheap wonder and spy points will be handy.)

 

[Norvin_Green]

Ran a test on a hemisphere map as Louis with all Industrious civs. Ended up isolated. Wonders went as follows SH 46, GW 50, Mids 79, GLH 79 (Louis), ToA 86 and Oracle 87.

Started another game as Louis and included Brennus, Ramesses, HC and 3 random civs but I ran out of time. I'll try to play further tomorrow.

To me it seems like the GLH in city 2 and the Mids in Paris offers the greatest benefit to us without diving too deep down the tech tree.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

[...]
And i would prefer pottery/masonry/fishing to leave some time to build TGW in Orleans (very cheap wonder and spy points will be handy.)

I thought we agreed earlier NOT to build the Great Wall. The Spy points will be a pain, since we need all the other GreatPersons during the game, and cannot afford to mix in the chance of a GreatSpy. And for the "steal IW" task we do not need the EspPoints/GSpy.

Although cheap, it's still hammers we need for other things in this phase of the game, like workers/settlers/fogbusting warriors/granaries

 

[astre]

well, pease consider it for fail gold then...
it helped me a lot in my last test game.

 

[Sengir]

@Sengir, I'm trying to get my head around understanding how it can be better to settle incense before sheep, if for the latter we can immediately improve it (pastures) while for incense we need both fishing and pottery for cottages still. Could you elaborate? Also, how many turns did you have between settling incense and sheep?

I went worker > settler in paris (with a chop into the settler), so the two were pretty close. Incense went Warrior (until Fishing was in) > WB (chop) > Warrior (until growth) > Worker (whip) > Warriors until size 4, then settlers. The worker first builds a road towards the river for the trade-route, then moves to chop+mine the PH, then moves to cottage the FP's (or use the new worker for that, in that case the other worker moves to Sheepcity for road/pasture/pasture).
The benefit of this is that the cottages grow earlier and we get more commerce overal. It also gets the fish into play faster. Did another test, getting GLH at turn 79, Mids at 88 and math at turn 88 as well. I had settled the pig/fish/deer city by that time as well, and was halfway through building a settler/galley for the one-tile-island.
It might be possible to shave 1/2 turn of the GLH date, but I'm not too sure.

Still, I'm not too happy with this test, as it is hard to line up Sheepcity for the GLH. It feels a bit wastefull as I'm not able to line up the whip properly. I'll probably do another testrun with Sheepcity first, seeing where that gets me.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

well, pease consider it for fail gold then...
it helped me a lot in my last test game.

You're right, if there's nothing more important to build, it's a good idea for the failgold. On this map/settings, we need all the science we can get, and a couple of turns at higher science% is worth something

 

[nocho]

I went worker > settler in paris (with a chop into the settler), so the two were pretty close. Incense went Warrior (until Fishing was in) > WB (chop) > Warrior (until growth) > Worker (whip) > Warriors until size 4, then settlers. The worker first builds a road towards the river for the trade-route, then moves to chop+mine the PH, then moves to cottage the FP's (or use the new worker for that, in that case the other worker moves to Sheepcity for road/pasture/pasture).
The benefit of this is that the cottages grow earlier and we get more commerce overal. It also gets the fish into play faster. Did another test, getting GLH at turn 79, Mids at 88 and math at turn 88 as well. I had settled the pig/fish/deer city by that time as well, and was halfway through building a settler/galley for the one-tile-island.
It might be possible to shave 1/2 turn of the GLH date, but I'm not too sure.

Still, I'm not too happy with this test, as it is hard to line up Sheepcity for the GLH. It feels a bit wastefull as I'm not able to line up the whip properly. I'll probably do another testrun with Sheepcity first, seeing where that gets me.

Interesting... I'll gladly take your word for it, but allow me to be a bit skeptical still. Thing is, fishing+pottery takes about 16 turns (6+10) and if a new settler can be created roughly in that time frame, commerce cannot come out that much higher as cottages come about roughly the same moment. Okay, fish will be worked a bit earlier and the oasis possibly. But I do wonder whether that bit of commerce outweighs the extra yields from early sheep+horse, plus the earlier extra hammer from the PH. If you test the other way around I'd try to have the WB be built by sheep city for incense. Incense probably could start immediately on a granary.

Well, hopefully I can do some testing myself as well, I'll specifically look into the city order. I think there's a growing consensus on fishing+pottery first... And on skipping Oracle, but we can be more definite about that after the immediate must-haves of fishing and pottery.

 

[Sengir]

Interesting... I'll gladly take your word for it, but allow me to be a bit skeptical still. Thing is, fishing+pottery takes about 16 turns (6+10) and if a new settler can be created roughly in that time frame, commerce cannot come out that much higher as cottages come about roughly the same moment. Okay, fish will be worked a bit earlier and the oasis possibly. But I do wonder whether that bit of commerce outweighs the extra yields from early sheep+horse, plus the earlier extra hammer from the PH. If you test the other way around I'd try to have the WB be built by sheep city for incense. Incense probably could start immediately on a granary.

Well, hopefully I can do some testing myself as well, I'll specifically look into the city order. I think there's a growing consensus on fishing+pottery first... And on skipping Oracle, but we can be more definite about that after the immediate must-haves of fishing and pottery.

I got the traderoutes up earlier as well, which counts for 2commerce. Still, I'm not too sure about it myself, that's why I'm going to test the other way around as well.

EDIT: I'm also not 100% sure on the commerce advantage in the long run. It might just be that the later runs were more optimized, because of familiarity.

 

[Sengir]

Hmm actually, with the Sheepcity, a borderpop is enough to create a traderoute, so the advantage of the Incense-city first should be smaller in that regard.

 

[Sengir]

Did another testrun with Sheepcity first:
GLH at t73, mids at t86, Math due in 2t. 4 cities settles, 1 settler ready to settle 1-tile-island next turn.
Latter turns were not optimal, didn't manage a 2-pop-whip into mids, so had to use a lot of forests.

In short, Sheepcity should be the first city, Incense next.
Tech: Pottery > Fishing > Sailing > Masonry > Writing
Builds Paris: Worker > Settler > granary/units > Mids
Builds Orleans (Sheepcity): Warrior > Warrior > WB > Worker > Units > LH (2popwhip) > GLH
Builds Lyons (Incense): units/whatever (until size 4) > Settler > Settler
Something like that anyway.

I have a strong preference for Sheepcity first now

 

[nocho]

Did another testrun with Sheepcity first:
GLH at t73, mids at t86, Math due in 2t. 4 cities settles, 1 settler ready to settle 1-tile-island next turn.
Latter turns were not optimal, didn't manage a 2-pop-whip into mids, so had to use a lot of forests.

In short, Sheepcity should be the first city, Incense next.
Tech: Pottery > Fishing > Sailing > Masonry > Writing
Builds Paris: Worker > Settler > granary/units > Mids
Builds Orleans (Sheepcity): Warrior > Warrior > WB > Worker > Units > LH (2popwhip) > GLH
Builds Lyons (Incense): units/whatever (until size 4) > Settler > Settler
Something like that anyway.

I have a strong preference for Sheepcity first now

Me too.

I hopefully can do a similar test run myself tonight and present a PPP based on this.

Any other specifics? I assume current worker joins settler immediately? Chops into incense-settler? Whips? Maybe a 1-pop settler whip is worth it in Paris?

 

[Sengir]

1 chop into incense settler (from the plain hill in the south), 1-pop-whip optional (aka, I'm not sure anymore).

Worker turns (old worker)> move to sheep (you have time for 1 roading action on the way) > pasture sheep > pasture horses > road horses > road sheep (need the health for Incense) > cottage FP > Mine bare hill > pre-chop > prechop > chop > chop ( > chop? not sure anymore).

 

[Sengir]

Did another run on the same stuff, I one-pop-whipped the settler now. Got Mids 1 turn earlier because I lined up a two-pop-whip (cost me 4 forests still), GLH cost 3. Had 4 workers when mids were done. Depending on techpath we can do some switching but that will be for after the next turnset (meaning: if we go math after writing, we can/should put Paris on high science first, and don't whip into the mids, that way, Math should come in before the mids are done, so that we can put more efficient chops into it).

 

[Sengir]

Hmm, I'm wondering whether not whipping the settler, growing Paris into unhappiness and 3-pop-whipping into the Mids is possible. I'm not sure whether it is at all possible, as you'd need to build worker > settler > stuff > settler (39 hammers), with only stuff as growth period. We'd need a bit of farming I suppose. Not sure if it is worth it, but I might test it tomorrow, if I get around to it.

 

[nocho]

Did you farm Paris' FP? I think that's the first thing new worker should do.

 

[nocho]

Did some tests but couldn't match, let alone improve, Sengir's dates and progress, though I got a bit sloppy. So basically I think we should go with his plan. Do I understand correctly you also had settler for city 5 + galley ready, Sengir?

In this run Oracle got BIDL around 1200BC, which was kind of a relief. I noticed it's rather crucial to get a road to the north eastern pig city for TRs, especially after GLH (supposing we don't unfog the northern pensinsular coast). Also happiness was a pain again, which made me wonder about masonry before sailing, but likely with better micro that may not be necessary. But we could discuss that after next set.

Draft PPP
- Tech: pottery, fishing
- Settle PH north of sheep.
- Revolt to slavery while that settler is en route.
- Current worker accompanies settler and improves sheep, horse, roads horse then roads sheep. On the way invests a turn roading the desert tile SW of sheep.
- Sheep city: warrior, warrior, WB, worker
- Paris: (Settler) worker, settler. New worker could farm FP first or chop PH 2S of the city + mine. Leaning towards the latter first now.
- Warrior near gems keeps scouting. Other warrior keeps a bit SW of the incense area to fogbust. The first sheep warrior will scout towards the north. The 2nd stays put for MP.

Won't play further than when new settler is there or fishing is learnt.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

Thanks Norvin .

I'm working on Gwall Harush (aka psychostomp).

any news on this? Considering the in depth discussion about the line of strategy that we seem to be following now it's maybe a bit late, but still curious

Draft PPP
- Tech: pottery, fishing
- Settle PH north of sheep.
- Revolt to slavery while that settler is en route.
- Current worker accompanies settler and improves sheep, horse, roads horse then roads sheep. On the way invests a turn roading the desert tile SW of sheep.
- Sheep city: warrior, warrior, WB, worker
- Paris: (Settler) worker, settler. New worker could farm FP first or chop PH 2S of the city + mine. Leaning towards the latter first now.
- Warrior near gems keeps scouting. Other warrior keeps a bit SW of the incense area to fogbust. The first sheep warrior will scout towards the north. The 2nd stays put for MP.

Won't play further than when new settler is there or fishing is learnt.

since I can't add anything useful to this, you have my vote

 

[astre]

New worker could farm FP first or chop PH 2S of the city + mine. Leaning towards the latter first now.

I usualy do the farming first and try to keep the forest for the wonders, but why not i did not made math on it, so.

for the rest agree 100%

and my vote is massonery first