SGOTM 16 - Maple Sporks

[DwarfSleepy]

The benefit of chopping into a settler is the compound effect: getting the settler earlier means getting a city earlier etc, which when done in the beginning can have even more benefit than chopping into a wonder.

Just important to leave enough forests for the wonders

 

[nocho]

Farming a FP takes very long, 7 turns IIRC. That's actually just as long as chop+mine the PH. Both give a 4 yield tile (plus 1 commerce) while the latter obviously gives 20 hammers extra, so basically the settler will be done earlier. The opportunity cost is losing out on the IND bonus on that wood later, but I think it's manageable. Besides, that way we'll have a mine ready when we start on mids.

 

[Sengir]

Actually, I cottaged it, haven't tried farming it. I might have time to try farming it as well, to see what the difference is.

 

[Sengir]

Did you farm Paris' FP? I think that's the first thing new worker should do.

Did another test, this time farming the FP instead of cottaging. GLH at 74, Mids + Math at 89. 5th city settled, another settler will be done in a couple of turns. It might be possible to shave 1 turn of the mids, with proper tile micro, as I didn't manage an optimal 3-pop-whip into it. Alternatively, a 2-pop-whip might work better.

I think cottaging the FP is stronger, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

Also, contrary to my earlier post, Orleans needs to go Warrior > Warrior > Worker > WB > Units/Granary > LH (2pop-whip) > GLH > Galley
Lyons goes Warrior until size 4 > Settler > Settler/worker
Paris goes Worker > Settler > Granary > Units(/settler/worker) > Mids

 

[nocho]

Did another test, this time farming the FP instead of cottaging. GLH at 74, Mids + Math at 89. 5th city settled, another settler will be done in a couple of turns. It might be possible to shave 1 turn of the mids, with proper tile micro, as I didn't manage an optimal 3-pop-whip into it. Alternatively, a 2-pop-whip might work better.

Sounds good to me.

I think cottaging the FP is stronger, but I'm not 100% sure on that.

To get that clear, regardless of cottage or farm, that worker still chopmines the hill 2S first?

Also, contrary to my earlier post, Orleans needs to go Warrior > Warrior > Worker > WB > Units/Granary > LH (2pop-whip) > GLH > Galley
Lyons goes Warrior until size 4 > Settler > Settler/worker
Paris goes Worker > Settler > Granary > Units(/settler/worker) > Mids

Is Orleans size 3 already when it starts on worker?

Can't believe I didn't think of it before, but fishing is an optional prereq to pottery. Hence fishing-pottery is cheaper than pottery-fishing. If I look at the builds it seems we are not building granaries that soon and I think we may not critically depend on being able to cottage in the next 15-odd turns either (first we have pastures, roads and some chops maybe). Besides a 20% extra discount on pottery must mean a turn or 2 less of research. Hence I'd go fishing-pottery if that doesn't really screw up the micro. Does it?

 

[Sengir]

Worker goes to chopmine first indeed.
Orleans is size 2 when it starts the worker. You need the worker to get the cottages online asap.

And I think you're safe going for Fishing first, though testing it might be a good idea. In that case starting the WB at size 2 in Orleans until growth is probably better.

 

[astre]

Can't believe I didn't think of it before, but fishing is an optional prereq to pottery. Hence fishing-pottery is cheaper than pottery-fishing.

Where and how can we learn that? never heard or seen that beore
This game is more and more tricky every days

 

[nocho]

Where and how can we learn that? never heard or seen that beore
This game is more and more tricky every days

For any tech that has multiple pre-requisites of the OR-type you get a discount of 20% IIRC on raw beaker-value for each additional prereq you know. Pottery requires Agri OR Fishing (beside the Wheel) so if you have both Agri and Fishing you get a discount. Similarly, masonry is cheaper when you know BOTH mining and mysticism, instead of only either one. The case of writing with 3 OR-prereqs (PH, AH or pottery) is even stronger, as you get a double discount if you know all 3 of them.

 

[Sengir]

Did fishing first this time. Farmed the FP in Paris.
Got GLH at turn 74 (should have been 73, but I realized too late that I needed the worker from Lyons for the third chop). Mids at turn 86, could have been sooner as well, but used 4 forests already. Settler + Galley ready for island city, Math will be done in 2, 4 cities in total.

Going fishing first means that the old worker has 1 turn to do something else, if you make that a prechop into a forest, that would ease micromanagement later on. In terms of commerce output, it's about even, as you can get the WB in time for the border-pop vs 1 turn faster cottage.
The difference in techpace is noticeable however, so Fishing first is the way to go

 

[nocho]

Ok, that's settled then. Shall I play tonight or wait another 24 hrs?

 

[Norvin_Green]

Good "catch" on the fishing nocho (pun intended). on all the testing Sengir. Plan sounds good (and well tested) so I vote that you play on.

 

[DwarfSleepy]

I think you can play. We could optimise to try and squeeze out another turn only to be surprised by a barb archer on our doorstep, throwing all plans out the door.

 

[nocho]

Norvin's vote suffices. We also need a moderate form of blazing.

Went ahead and played until pottery was in. All according to plan, if it weren't for rather bad luck vs the barbs. Lost 3 of 3 encounters that I hadn't planned for, vs an archer, a bear and a warrior. Just ran into them. So despite building 2 extra warriors, our grand army consists of exactly 1. Maybe we should get a chariot next from Orleans, although note that we kind of got a free fogbuster in the north in the form of a woody2 celtic scout that we seemed to have locked in (which means the northern peninsula must be quite small).

Right now 2 turns left on incense-settler and 2 turns on a workboat. Horse and sheep are up and roaded. Note the northern worker has movement left this turn, didn't want to commit yet. Not sure if Sengir also built a cottage for Orleans, maybe mined the bare GH, or chopped the other hill.

Scouting wise we did have some success before all those warriors got killed in locating what must be the Celtic capital (SW in a straight line from the 2 pigs is the Celtic one ). Not that far away, so Brennus is indeed a good EP target.

And then a barb city spawned to our west. It won't interfere with settling plans just yet. It might actually make for a nice addition to the empire.

That's it. I think we should just follow up with the plan of sailing-masonry-writing with the builds proposed. As said, a chariot or 2 may be good for comfort (and scouting) though.

The save.

Spoiler Log :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2640 BC to 2040 BC:


Turn 35, 2600 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 35, 2600 BC: Louis XIV adopts Slavery!
Turn 35, 2600 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.
Turn 35, 2600 BC: Barbarian's Wolf (1.00) vs Louis XIV's Warrior (3.45)
Turn 35, 2600 BC: Combat Odds: 0.0%
Turn 35, 2600 BC: (Animal Combat: +10%)
Turn 35, 2600 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 35, 2600 BC: (Feature Defense: +20%)
Turn 35, 2600 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 35 (65/100HP)
Turn 35, 2600 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 35 (30/100HP)
Turn 35, 2600 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior is hit for 11 (85/100HP)
Turn 35, 2600 BC: Barbarian's Wolf is hit for 35 (0/100HP)
Turn 35, 2600 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Wolf!

Turn 37, 2520 BC: Orleans has been founded.

Turn 40, 2400 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Louis XIV's Warrior (2.89)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Combat Odds: 59.3%
Turn 40, 2400 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: (Feature Defense: +20%)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior is hit for 19 (66/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior is hit for 19 (47/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior is hit for 19 (28/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior is hit for 19 (9/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior is hit for 19 (0/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Barbarian's Archer has defeated Louis XIV's Warrior!
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Barbarian's Bear (3.00) vs Louis XIV's Warrior 1 (Paris) (2.20)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Combat Odds: 79.3%
Turn 40, 2400 BC: (Animal Combat: +10%)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Barbarian's Bear is hit for 17 (83/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 1 (Paris) is hit for 23 (77/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 1 (Paris) is hit for 23 (54/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 1 (Paris) is hit for 23 (31/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Barbarian's Bear is hit for 17 (66/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Barbarian's Bear is hit for 17 (49/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Barbarian's Bear is hit for 17 (32/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 1 (Paris) is hit for 23 (8/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 1 (Paris) is hit for 23 (0/100HP)
Turn 40, 2400 BC: Barbarian's Bear has defeated Louis XIV's Warrior 1 (Paris)!

Turn 41, 2360 BC: You have discovered Fishing!
Turn 41, 2360 BC: The borders of Orleans have expanded!

Turn 47, 2120 BC: Orleans can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 15ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 47, 2120 BC: Brennus adopts Slavery!

Turn 48, 2080 BC: Paris can hurry Settler for 1⇴ with 12ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 48, 2080 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Ramesses II adopts Slavery!
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Louis XIV's Warrior 3 (Orleans) (2.00)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Combat Odds: 50.0%
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 3 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (80/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 3 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (60/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 3 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (40/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 3 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (20/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 3 (Orleans) is hit for 20 (0/100HP)
Turn 48, 2080 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Louis XIV's Warrior 3 (Orleans)!
Turn 48, 2080 BC: While defending, your Warrior 3 (Orleans) was destroyed by a Barbarian Warrior!

 

[DwarfSleepy]

Tough luck on the battles... A few more units would definitively make me more comfortable.
Well, the barb city will also help in the fogbusting of that part of the map. And since barb cities appear in areas of abundant resources, it might indeed be a nice catch later on

EDIT: also good to see that Ramses and Brennus are each others worst enemies. Ramses is not putting any EP on us.

There is a very big AI already in the game: 96k vs our 27k... That's roughly 18pop!!

Edit2: I'm trying to figure out if Brennus has researched BW yet (we want him to get on with IW!) Looking at the score chart he has a decline in score at the end. Could that be anything other than whipping (and thus having BW)? Duh, I should have looked at the log: "Turn 47, 2120 BC: Brennus adopts Slavery!" Time for bed I guess

 

[Ondskan]

Well I was thinking of placing our next city south of insence in which case we now have lost our fish for not going west of sheep. What is the plan for the next south western city now?

The hill west of insence?

 

[nocho]

On incense, as mentioned multiple times.

 

[Ondskan]

But that's like negative 5 gold and an empty desert tile?
I just got an idea, what about dropping the city north of wheat and then going for a city on the small island near the fish later on?

 

[Sengir]

I think we should indeed build some units in Paris instead of the granary (after the settler).

@ondskan: South Western city goes on the incense.

Orleans must go WB for 1 turn, then Worker > Finish WB > Chariot > LH > GLH
Paris: Finish settler > Chariot > Chariot > Worker (I think, 2pop-whip) > Mids, alternatively, build the mids straight, without whipping into it. Just make sure that while building chariots, the city grows fast to the happy cap.
New city (Lyons) should build a warrior.

Somewhat like this anyway.

 

[Sengir]

But that's like negative 5 gold and an empty desert tile?
I just got an idea, what about dropping the city north of wheat and then going for a city on the small island near the fish later on?

Why the -5g? Relative to what? We want the city to be coastal for the GLH traderoutes. 1-tile-island will get a city in any case (Incense won't need the fish in the end). 1-tile-island should be our fifth city if nothing unexpected happens. I don't like 1N of Wheat, as we'd need another city (near the incense) to grab the rest of the FP's, which would cause a lot of overlap.

 

[Sengir]

Also, the first Chariot should stay in Paris, the chariot out of Orleans should stay in the city as well. We need them there for the happy (and defense)