1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

SGOTM 17 - Unusual Suspects

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Jan 9, 2003
    Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 17 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the
    Maintenance Thread
    for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

    You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

    Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

    Good luck, have fun ... and never trust a mapmaker :mischief:
  2. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

    Oct 13, 2001
    San Francisco, California, USA
    Submit Saves : View Progress and Download Saves

    SGOTM 17 - The Quartermaster's Challenge
    Spoiler :
    SGOTM 17 - The Quartermaster's Challenge

    Thanks for this scenario go to kcd_swede, who seems to be getting a taste for SGOTM design.

    The game description is quite simple this time: Kill them all.:ar15:

    In this game, you will play as the Quartermaster, and like all quartermasters he thinks he's a king of his own holy empire.

    The Quartermaster is Protective and Imperialistic. His unique unit is the Landsknecht, which replaces the Pikeman, and gets a combat bonus (100%) versus melee as well as mounted units. Your unique building is the Rathaus, which replaces the Courthouse, and gives -75% maintenance.

    The game will be played at Immortal difficulty, at normal speed.
    You will start in the Classical Era (2000BC), but Meditation, Polytheism, and Monotheism technologies have been removed for the player and for all AI (and for Barbs, who will start with same techs as AI). All religions can be founded in the usual way.

    Game Options:
    Culture flipping after conquest
    No Vassals
    No Huts
    No Random Events

    Opponents: 6 AI
    Normal Speed
    Map: Artificial, flat wrap

    Starting screenshot
    This is the start of the game (click for a bigger image):

    To be eligible for an award (Laurels or Spoons) you must win the game any way you can.

    Laurels' priority will go to the team that acheives the fastest Conquest victory. If not enough teams win by conquest to award all 4 awards then eligible teams can win the laurels based on the highest power-rating at the time of victory. Wooden Spoons will as always go to the eligible team finishing (winners ONLY this time) with the lowest final score.

    If everyone is defeated.... well... it would sure be memorable:lol:

    Although the goal is quite simple to understand, do not expect it to be easy to accomplish. Enjoy the Quartermaster's Challenge!:king: Sign up today!


    Please sign up in this thread by February 15 at the latest. To help us to assign players to teams, please indicate your preferred team, whether you have played previous SGOTMs or SGs, and the highest level of Civ4 difficulty you can typically win at.

    The game will start on February 22.

    The completion deadline will be June 22. Plan your game, and please avoid a last minute struggle to meet the deadline.

    • Versions
      This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using the standard BUFFY-3.19.003 HoF mod.
      If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in BtS version 3.19 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.

      Macintosh players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows software on their system.
    • Rules and Procedures
      Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.

      All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
    • Spoiler information will absolutely NOT be tolerated in this thread.

    Please sign up for this game as soon as possible by posting your own details in this thread. I shall publish draft team lists below in the next ten days.

    Please use the separate Discussion Thread for any non-sign-up questions or comments about this game

    Current Sign-up Lists
    The table below will display your stated team preferences as I add you to the database. The number of players in each team is shown in brackets, as are non-playing advisers.
    Team Rules
    Spoiler :

    • Read the various rule threads posted by AlanH.
    • Before playing every single turnset, verify that your ini file has the autosave interval set to 1.
    • Before playing every single turnset, verify that the BUFFY log is enabled.
    • After uploading your save file, post BOTH the CivFanatics log (displayed on the upload confirmation web page) and the BUFFY log.
    • No reloads! We get one shot, no replays, period!
    • No reading other team threads. The easiest way to do this is to use the thread tools to subscribe to this thread. You could also bookmark the thread.
    • When looking at the save, do not perform any irreversible action. Do not move units, whip, or trade.
    • The flying camera exploit is banned.
    • If the game crashes, stop and PM AlanH with the details of what happened. Wait for instructions from AlanH before proceeding.
    • Do not open auto saves except to recover from a crash.
    • Stop and ask the team for advice if a new opportunity presents itself.
    • Stop and ask the team if anything goes wrong.
    • Have fun!

    Strongly Recommended

    • Make manual saves often, preferably every turn, in case we need to review diplomacy screens or other metrics.
    • Pause the game before uploading or examining it.
    • Put TEST flags on the map on test games, and name test games so it's obvious they aren't the real game.
    • Let us know if you are unable to make a deadline, get too busy in real life, or are going offline for vacation.
    • Do not automate workers.
    • Do not use city governors.
    • Do not leave units on goto orders.
    • Have fun!

    • Active participation -- Your contribution to every set is important, even if it's an 'I agree.' Although everyone might have real life issues sometimes, it's courteous to notify the team of your absence.
    • Pre-Play Plan -- The spirit of succession games is to play the game following the consensus of the team decision. Therefore the player who is UP should post a clear plan for discussion. Guidelines have been posted for the contents of your plan in the next post. It might be that the team decides to head in a direction you were opposed to, it does not mean you are wrong but rather that the team believes the odds of winning are more likely with the decided approach.
    • Timing -- We would like to generally stick to a schedule, but it is more important to reach consensus and ensure quality of play. Some sets will take much longer than others. If the UP player cannot play within 48 hrs of consensus due to RL issues, please inform the team early.
    • Please, please, please include a report when you submit the save, complete with the CivFanatics log AND the BUFFY log. You may submit your report later but it would be preferable to have it before the discussion on the next set starts.
    • Finish all your discussed turns and upload the game saved at the END of the discussed part.
    • Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player has strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the earlier SGOTM threads when the most simple rule has been unknown to players (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid.
    • Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Don't play when your kids or spouse are talking to you.
    • Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style. Accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.
    • Use smilies and emoticons in your posts. Jokes, humor, sarcasm, and offensive language can be misinterpreted.
    • Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.
    • SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your case, and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in our game thread. That is what it's for.
    • Have fun!

    Turn Sets

    There are 7 major parts to every set.

    1. Pre-Play Plan: see below.
    2. Voting: everyone voices his or her opinion on the issues raised in 1.
    3. Plan: see below.
    4. Critique of the Plan: once the Plan is posted, players should try/read the plan and look for anything they'd like to change. This is where you must support your arguments!
    5. Final Plan: tries to glue everything together.
    6. Play the Set: see below.
    7. Post the Report: see below

    What is the Pre-Play Plan?

    The Pre-Play Plan is to initiate the discussion on the diverging possibilities at the start of a set. This includes, but not limited to, EP focus, general city micro, general worker micro, general techs. Basically, make an idea of what you want to do with your 10/15 turns.

    Below are general ideas as to what you can cover with the pre-play plan. Not everything needs to be discussed, only the obvious decision points.

    1. Technologies
    • What techs are you aiming for? (One, a beeline ex. Literature, part-research for trading)
    • What trades will you attempt with who and when? (When to sell for gold ex. first opportunity or wait for more, specify the leader(s), waiting for a wonder to finish so the AI get failure gold)
    • Are we planning a Great Person bulb?

    2. Dealing with AIs
    • Resource trade negotiations
    • Espionage assignment
    • Open borders (cancel or allow)
    • AI demands (resources, cancel trades, who do we send packing or not, technologies, war, religions, civics)

    3. City placement and builds - mostly in the beginning
    • Where are you planning on sending a settler?
    • Are you sending a worker along?
    • Is the land fogbusted/do we have an escort?
    • Initial city builds (Monument/Granary etc...)
    • Tile improvements around this city (food, hammers, commerce)

    4. General micro
    • Special tile assignments (starve city for specialists, switch to growth, etc.)
    • Tile swapping with other cities
    • Whips
    • Build order (infrastructure/military/settlers/workers/wealth/science)
    • Dealing with happy/health caps
    • Worker improvements and moves

    5. Civics and religion
    • Are you planning on civic switches/do we need to acquire the techs? (Caste for border pops, slavery for whip...)
    • Are we expecting a religion change?

    6.War - if applicable
    • Refuse/accept AI war demands
    • Bribing civs to declare war or for stopping war
    • War plan (who, how many units and how to acquire them, which cities to strike, scouting prior to DoW...)

    7. Bigger picture
    • Gifts (city, gold, techs...)
    • What AI do we try to please
    • Goals for the future
    • Diplo manipulation
    • Extras

    What your Plan should cover:

    The plan must contain 2 detailed parts:

    1. What you will check for every turn (EP, trades available, GPT available, etc.) [this is easy].
    2. Turn-by-turn worker moves, city micromanagement, unit movement and or general guidelines as to what we can't control via test game [this is the hard part].

    The team might at one point decide to slack on #2 once the game becomes well in hand.

    How your set should go:

    • Play according to the plan
    • If something unexpected (or an opportunity) comes up, STOP AND CHECK WITH THE TEAM.
    • If you have to adapt, do so!
    • You can add markers in game during and at the end of your set. It's a lot easier on team members to figure where units are going.

    What your set report should cover:
    • WHEOOHRN alerts and possible/likely targets
    • Great Generals and Great Engineers in distant lands
    • Religions founded
    • Wonders built
    • When to renegotiate trades
    • What you were planning for the future
    • How the plan worked out/didn't
    • Anything unexpected
    • Remember to post BOTH the CivFanatics log (found on the upload confirmation screen) and the BUFFY log.

    The above was liberally copied from various team threads in previous SGOTM games.
  3. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

    Oct 13, 2001
    San Francisco, California, USA
    Spoiler :
    • Holy Roman Empire - Charelemagne aka Quartermaster
      • Protective: Free City Garrison I and Drill I promotion for all Archery and Gunpowder units. Double production speed of Walls and Castle.
      • Imperialistic: +100% Great General emergence. 50% faster production of Settler.
      • Landsknecht: replaces the Pikeman and gets a combat bonus (100%) versus melee as well as mounted units.
      • Rathaus replaces the Courthouse, and gives -75% maintenance.
    • Malinese - Mansa Musa
      • Spiritual - no anarchy and double production speed of Temple and Christo Redentor
      • Financial - +1 commerce on tiles with at least 2 commerce
      • Skirmisher - replaces the Archer with 4 strength and an additional first strike chance
      • Mint - Replaces the Forge and gives 10% gold.
    • Japan - Tokugawa
      • Aggressive - combat I promotion for all melee and gunpowder, double production barracks and drydock
      • Protective - city garrison I and drill I for all archery and gunpowder, double production walls and castle
      • Samurai - replaces maceman, requires iron (copper not sufficient), 2 first strikes, Drill I
      • Shale Plant - replaces coal plant, does not require coal, +10% hammers
    • Khmer - Suryavarman II
      • Expansive - +2 health, 25% faster production worker, double production granary and harbor
      • Creative - +2 culture, double production library, theater, and colosseum
      • Ballista Elephant - replaces war elephant, targets mounted units first in combat outside cities
      • Baray - replaces aqueduct, +1 food
    • China - Qin Shi Huang
      • Industrious - +50% wonders, double production forge
      • Protective - city garrison I and drill I for all archery and gunpowder, double production walls and castle
      • Cho-Ko-Nu - replaces crossbowman, +1 first strike, causes collateral damage
      • Pavilion - replaces theater, +25% culture
    • Unknown
      • Trait 1
      • Trait 2
      • Unit
      • Building
    • Unknown
      • Trait 1
      • Trait 2
      • Unit
      • Building
    Full List:
    • American - Lincoln
    • American - Roosevelt
    • American - Washington
    • Arabian - Saladin
    • Aztec - Montezuma
    • Babylonian - Hammurabi
    • Byzantine - Justinian I
    • Carthaginian - Hannibal
    • Celtic - Boudica
    • Celtic - Brennus
    • Chinese - Mao Zedong
    • Chinese - Qin Shi Huang
    • Dutch - Willem van Oranje
    • Egyptian - Hatshepsut
    • Egyptian - Ramesses II
    • English - Churchill
    • English - Elizabeth
    • English - Victoria
    • Ethiopian - Zara Yaqob
    • French - De Gaulle
    • French - Louis XIV
    • French - Napoleon
    • German - Bismark
    • German - Frederick
    • Greek - Alexander
    • Greek - Pericles
    • Holy Roman Empire - Charlemagne aka Quartermaster
    • Incan - Huayan Capac
    • Indian - Asoka
    • Indian - Gandhi
    • Japanese - Tokugawa
    • Khmer - Suryavarman II
    • Korean - Wang Kon
    • Malinese - Mansa Musa
    • Maya - Pacal II
    • Mongolian - Genghis Khan
    • Mongolian - Kublai Khan
    • Native American - Sitting Bull
    • Ottoman - Mehmed II
    • Ottoman - Suleiman
    • Persian - Cyrus
    • Persian - Darius I
    • Portuguese - Joao II
    • Roman - Augustus Caesar
    • Roman - Julius Caesar
    • Russian - Catherine
    • Russian - Peter
    • Russian - Stalin
    • Spanish - Isabella
    • Sumerian - Gilgamesh
    • Viking - Ragnar
    • Zulu - Shaka
    Spoiler :

    Test Games, Dot Maps, and Spreadsheets

    Rules, Logs, PPPs, and Reports
  4. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

    Oct 13, 2001
    San Francisco, California, USA
    Wonders, Technologies, Religions, Great People, Diplomacy, and Revolutions
    Spoiler :
    Fishing (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Sailing (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Agriculture (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Hunting (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Mining (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Mysticism (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Pottery (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Animal Husbandry (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Archery Masonry (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Priesthood (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Bronze Working (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Writing (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Revolution: Slavery (Turn 0 - 2000 BC)
    Met Mansa Musa (Turn 9 - 1640 BC)
    Mathematics (Turn 32 - 825 BC)
    Revolution: Buddhism (Turn 53 - 300 BC)
    Alphabet (Turn 55 - 250 BC)
    Iron Working (Turn 55 - 250 BC) Traded Mathematics to Mansa Musa
    Great Scientist (Turn 112 - 75 BC) Academy in Aachen
    Currency (Turn 68 - 75 AD)
    Meditation, Polytheism, and Code of Laws (Turn 119 - 100 AD) Traded Currency and Alphabet to Mansa Musa
    Christianity (Turn 76 - 275 AD) Mansa Musa
    Taoism (Turn 77 - 300 AD) Mansa Musa
    Aesthetics (Turn 78 - 325 AD)
    Temple of Solomon (Turn 79 - 350 AD) BIAFAL
    Met Tokugawa (Turn 87 - 540 AD)
    Literature (Turn 87 - 540 AD)
    Parthenon (Turn 88 - 560 AD) Quartermaster
    Monotheism (Turn 91 - 620 AD) Traded Literature to Mansa Musa
    Organized Religion (Turn 91 - 620 AD)
    Construction (Turn 95 - 700 AD)
    National Epic (Turn 96 - 720 AD)
    Declared war on Mansa Musa (Turn 103 - 860 AD)
    Captured Djenne from Mansa Musa (Turn 105 - 900 AD)
    Great General (Turn 107 - 940 AD) Medic III chariot
    Great Library (Turn 107 - 940 AD) Quartermaster
    Captured Walata from Mansa Musa (Turn 110 - 1000 AD)
    Metal Casting (Turn 110 - 1000 AD)
    Peace with Mansa Musa (Turn 111 - 1010 AD)
    Pyramids (Turn 111 - 1010 AD) Quartermaster
    Great Scientist (Turn 112 - 1020 AD) Golden Age
    Representation (Turn 113 - 1030 AD)
    Compass (Turn 113 - 1030 AD)
    Gifted Code of Laws to Tokugawa (Turn 113 - 1030 AD)
    Calendar and Monarchy (Turn 114 - 1040 AD) Traded Aesthetics, Currency, and Meditation to Tokugawa
    Hanging Gardens (Turn 115 - 1050 AD) BIAFAL
    Met Suryavarman II of Khmer (Turn 115 - 1050 AD)
    Open Borders with Suryavarman II (Turn 115 - 1050 AD)
    Machinery (Turn 116 - 1060 AD)
    Met Qin Shi Huang of China (Turn 116 - 1060 AD)
    Optics (Turn 120 - 1100 AD)
    Golden Age ended (Turn 120 - 1100 AD)
    Great Scientist (Turn 120 - 1100 AD)
    Chichen Itza (Turn 120 - 1100 AD) Qin Shi Huang]
    Adopted Buddhism (Turn 120 - 1100 AD)
    Academy in Supercity (Turn 123 - 1160 AD)
    Refused request to give Mansa Musa Machinery (Turn 123 - 1160 AD)
    Engineering (Turn 126 - 1160 AD)
    Refused demand to give Qin Shi Huang Aesthetics (Turn 126 - 1160 AD)
    Turn Logs
  5. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

    Mar 24, 2009
    San Francisco, California
    Proposed roster/current status:
    • ChrisShaffer (t0-t32, t147-153)
    • neilmeister (t32-t55)(t120-147) - UP!
    • Trystero (t55-t69, t69-79, t153-169)
    • Revent
    • Deckhand (t102-120)(t180-197) - just played
    • SteelHorse (t79-91)(t91-102)(t169-180)
    • Benginal
  6. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

    Mar 24, 2009
    San Francisco, California
    And one more for miscellaneous items/future use.

    This thread is now open. Post away Suspects! :)

    Friendly reminders:

    1. Avoid accidentally looking at other teams threads by subscribing to this thread (and set it for instant email notification so you keep up to date on our progress).
    2. Also please subscribe to the Maintenance Thread.
  7. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

    Mar 24, 2009
    San Francisco, California
    I am going to post here information about the current game settings.

    Here is what's available in a Classical Era start (with the religious techs removed).

    Techs we start with:
    Animal Husbandry
    Archery Masonry
    Bronze Working

    Techs available for research:
    Code of Laws
    Iron Working
    Metal Casting

    Immediately available city builds:
    GLH (after lighthouse)
    Temple of Artemis

    Wonders not available in Classical starts:

    The Great Wall
    The Oracle :)cry:)
    Moai Statues

    Slavery is available as soon as we settle immediately.

    Start at 2000 BC (the game is 450 turns, rather than 500).
  8. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    May 4, 2007
    Morning peeps.

    No Oracle, but GLH is available.

    From memory, revolting in the first turn is always best on later starts, but I have only managed to play one test start on Classical... it was weird.

    .... and yay, a thread STW can't post in.
  9. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

    Mar 24, 2009
    San Francisco, California
    I've actually started 3 practice games with these settings (and almost finished one). There are lots of useful things we can build straight away, so revolting immediately seems to make the most sense.

    Teching either Math or Alphabet and then going straight to Currency really helps with early expansion. If we don't have horses or copper nearby, and do have jungle, going IW first might make the most sense. Being Protective and starting with Archers really helps with barbs.
  10. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

    Mar 24, 2009
    San Francisco, California
  11. Revent

    Revent Will SIP

    May 5, 2012
    Move scout 1W1N to see if there are any resources worth keeping. Worker 1E1S to see if there's any resources below the banana. If nothing significant, I think we should settle 1W.

    Lots of forests nearby so perhaps bulb maths and then chop out an army to kill off an AI asap?
  12. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    May 4, 2007
    Things we know:

    - the edge of the map is 2 tiles east of the settler
    - assuming we revolt to BW first turn, there is no pressure for us to settle until the 2nd turn.

    So, I'm kind of leaning towards:
    - worker to the GH
    - scout 2 tiles NW
    - archer SW

    Then we will know a great deal more about our surrounds, before we have even moved the settler.

    On the tech front:
    - Beelining Maths->Calendar looks very tempting, setup a settler pump with 3 food resources.
    - Currency will be great once we have multiple cities
    - Founding a religion would also be nice, but is probably not worth the diversion
  13. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

    Oct 13, 2001
    San Francisco, California, USA
    I should probably just play a test game, but won't be at my computer for a while. Do we get any automatic buildings when we settle? What is our starting population on settling?
  14. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

    Mar 24, 2009
    San Francisco, California
    No - this isn't an "advanced start" start. We get no automatic buildings or extra pop. We start with the techs I listed above, a settler, worker, warrior archer, and scout. And it is 2000 BC, so the game lasts 450 turns.

    Edit: I got confused about the advanced start vs starting era difference, as well. The Classical start is changed under where the map settings are on the left of the Custom Game set up. Do not check the "Advanced Start" option as that is something else.
  15. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

    Mar 24, 2009
    San Francisco, California
    I made a quick attempt at a test map. This differs from the real game in that we are not on the edge of the map.

    Edit: This map is a bit crowded, I might try making another one.

    Attached Files:

  16. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    May 4, 2007
    Just some quick tests:

    - Calendar is about 60 turns away, even if we beeline it.
    - Banana gives +2 food when plantationed, +1 when farmed
    - We can probably get a religion, if we beeline it and do not revolt first. (I got meditation 3 times out of 3)
    - We don't need to revolt on t0, as long as we revolt before city 2 is founded, there is no difference.
    - I really like building a WB first, and chopping one of the forests into it.

    So, what I did was:
    - SIP, work the lake, not the banana, to ensure we got buddhism
    - start WB, move worker to forest and chop into it
    - worker then farms the banana
    - growth to pop 2 occurs the same turn as WB finished
    - settler at pop 2, working clams & farmed banana. Chop another forest into settler
  17. Deckhand

    Deckhand Procrastination at its finest GOTM Staff

    Sep 22, 2008
    Hi y'all.

    Agree that we should explore before moving the settler and before revolting. Is slavery the only civic that will be available?
  18. Trystero

    Trystero Deity

    Mar 24, 2009
    San Francisco, California
    Yes - slavery is only civic option available.

    I agree with WB first. It lets us grow the capital while building a unit to improve a food resource. And neilmeister's tests indicate the timing works well with growth to pop 2.

    I'm not so sure about beelining a religion.

    The AI will almost certainly go for the religious techs first, and we can open borders immediately upon meeting an AI civ to expedite possible religion spread. And since this is a conquest game, this also lets the AI build a shrine for us.
  19. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

    May 4, 2007
    Yes, I agree regarding the religion, we will probably catch one later.

    Since Calendar isn't essential, I'm at a loss for what techs to start pursuing first. :dunno:

    CoL might be best of both worlds, as it is extremely useful, gets us a religion, and is excellent trade bait. Same could be said for Aesthetics.

    I will put some hours in in the next few days to try and get my Classical start bearings.
  20. ChrisShaffer

    ChrisShaffer Board gamer

    Oct 13, 2001
    San Francisco, California, USA
    What are our end goals? How far up the tech paths do we need to go?

Share This Page