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SGOTM 18 - Unusual Suspects

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Jul 31, 2013.

  1. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Nothing wrong with us talking above what you are used to. :)

    The key is to put up a detailed PPP, and then let us all debate it.

    Nothing wrong with putting up a PPP we disagree with either, I have been wrong several times already this game (and surely will be again)

    If you like I can help put up the PPP, and if you ask about what confuses you, we will try explain it. Sometimes we don't make sense and I am probably the chief of this.
     
  2. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    No Neil, you are at least Immortal level in confusing people.:p
     
  3. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    Go for it. Please ask for clarification on anything you don't understand. I am guilty of not thoroughly explaining why I am recommending things because I forget that not everyone is as familiar with the nuances if the game as I am.
     
  4. astre

    astre Chieftain

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    ok will try to prepare something step by step. not sure for tonight but something for tomorow should be doable.
     
  5. SteelHorse

    SteelHorse Chieftain

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  6. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    Here are my thoughts for the next turnset; this is what I would do if playing this game alone:

    Washington: Switch to Spy and work Quarry, not wheat and give wheat to pig city. Finish cottage, then road 1S2E of Wash, then road gold. After Spy, finish granary.

    Fish City: Finish worker, then road 2N1W of Fish city, then cottage in place. Go back to building granary (or Confucian missionary, depending on Trojan Auto Spread and Washington spread with Judaism and Hinduism). Put one turn into settler just before pop 6. Then grow to six and whip or finish granary, then whip.

    The roads between Wash and Fish City get Spies to Trojan faster.

    Pig city finishes settler with chop. Settle 1W of stone. Pig city finishes builds archer for Stone City garrison.

    Fembot to hill where Missionary is. Missionary to Trojan if no auto spread. As soon as auto spread, Missionary to Wash.

    Christian Missionary to Mansa lands to take NW route to Gandhi. If he does, so be it!

    Research: After Theology, research MC. We need 1/2 price forges, especially prior to building AP.

    We need to get confucianism into whatever city we plant to build AP in. (Wash as obvious choice, but Pig City as secondary.)

    We need to found city 4 before founding Christianity so we can get a free border pop from Holy City.
     
  7. Trystero

    Trystero Chieftain

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    Especially this SGOTM, we are playing way above my skill level, but we try to foster a supportive atmosphere.

    Man, I need to update the roster again. :rolleyes:
     
  8. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Actually, one clear thing we need to discuss is the location of the next city.

    The options are west of Pigs, or next to the Stone. Will need to test this out.
     
  9. astre

    astre Chieftain

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    I'm writting the PPP up to theo only. I plan for a second PPP after that.
    thx for some idea shulec

    clearly, next city is the question.
    I could see 5 ideas (precise spot need to be defined afterward)

    1 - near horse to close border
    2 - near stone
    3 - overlap city
    4 - a gift city for gandi
    5 - a gambit city : settle near iron (north of cap - outside of our natural territory).

    I like options 1 and 5.

    question: if we build AP in cap (hindu + jud) while we are confu. will we be able to have an confu AP in a not confu city? seems kind of weird but with Civ, everything is possible :crazyeye:

    question 2 i already asked : what will we do about our future Gspy? settle or infiltrate? i'don't think scotland yard is an otion at this point.
     
  10. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    I think I like option 1 for the next city, but I say this without having tested alternatives.

    We can start the AP as long as we are running a state religion, and that religion is present in the city. So we can start it if we revolt to Judaism or Hinduism. The religion that the AP is defined as is the religion you are running as state religion (and it must be present in the city) the turn the AP is finished.

    GSpy will infiltrate for sure, this will give us a huge amount of espionage points right now, which is what we want. The question I have is: Can we infiltrate it in Trojan Horse, or will it get more ESP points by going to Mansa's capital?
     
  11. astre

    astre Chieftain

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    ok, then we'll have to place miss on cap and convert if needed.
    in case no one ask for religion swap, we'll have to do it ourself to confu the turn theo will become online. That mean that we'll need cap to be confu. due to the double religion in cap, autospread is not probable.
    I'll build a miss in FC for troyan/backup plan if miss fail / PC in case of miracle happening...

    PPP nearly ready on my laptop (with no internet access at work)

    I'll test Gspy city infiltration with WB on test save ASAP
     
  12. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    The missionary for Trojan should be a priority over one for the AP. The tech stealing will occur much sooner than the AP completion.
     
  13. astre

    astre Chieftain

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    agree but starting the AP will come before and i don't want us to convert hindu just to be able to start AP. I'd rather switch to confu directly.
    it cost us one turn to convert and i would rather not use unnecessary revolt turns.
     
  14. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    1 extra turn of revolt wasted is bad but this is balanced by the fact that Washington (and maybe Pigs from memory) will get +25% hammers, as we are already in OR.

    Don't forget that Joao is one of the worst AI to demand we change religion, so we might find ourselves having to change to Hindu on demand, then changing back to finish AP.

    Better to just change into Hindu first, as this might even save 1 turn of revolt.
     
  15. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Just so I understand the tech stealing bonuses perfectly, as obviously this affects religion choices:

    - do we need to be running Confused, and Trojan infected to get the big 40% bonus?
     
  16. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    That is correct. We get the highest bonus since we also have the holy city.
     
  17. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    The link you have given is faulty, so I can't review your source. I assume your calculations are from code, but I do a lot of begging, and I suspect your calculation is wrong, possibly due to misinterpretation of the code. I would recommend begging for 70 to 80 gold.

    What is your experience with this?
     
  18. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    The source is STW. It is post #3517 in the Kakumeika SGOTM 14 thread, I will try link it again. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11078441&postcount=3517

    It may well be wrong, but begging is something we can pretty easily test in the test game, as the amount you can beg is the same regardless. The chance a beg will succeed (assuming the amount requested is below the limit) is affected by the RNG though.

    We have used this in the last few SGOTM's.

    edit: actually, following the link inside that link, it would appear that STW was wrong. The code seems to indicate that power ratios are a major factor, maybe in the past we have just been lucky, I will have a look at the code.
     
  19. neilmeister

    neilmeister Lentils have feelings too GOTM Staff

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    Actually, after some digging, the formula is about right. Not exact but the end result is about the same.

    Code:
    bool CvPlayerAI::AI_considerOffer(PlayerTypes ePlayer, const CLinkList<TradeData>* pTheirList, const CLinkList<TradeData>* pOurList, int iChange) const
    {
    [COLOR="Red"] if we are begging or demanding something for nothing[/COLOR]
    	if (iOurValue > 0 && 0 == pTheirList->getLength() && 0 == iTheirValue)
    	{
    		iThreshold = (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).AI_getHasMetCounter(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()) + 50);
    [COLOR="Red"]iThreshold = 62 + 50[/COLOR]
    
    		iThreshold *= 2;
    [COLOR="Red"]iThreshold = (62 + 50) * 2[/COLOR]
    		if (GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()).AI_isLandTarget(getTeam()))
    		{
    			iThreshold *= 3;
    		}
    [COLOR="Red"]iThreshold = ((62 + 50) * 2) * 3[/COLOR]
    		iThreshold *= (GET_TEAM(GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).getTeam()).getPower(false) + 100);
    		iThreshold /= (GET_TEAM(getTeam()).getPower(false) + 100);
    [COLOR="Red"]iThreshold = (((62 + 50) * 2) * 3) * 0.6316    (0.6316 is the current ratio of Mansa's power to ours )[/COLOR]
    		iThreshold -= GET_PLAYER(ePlayer).AI_getPeacetimeGrantValue(getID());
    [COLOR="Red"]iThreshold = ((((62 + 50) * 2) * 3) * 0.6316) - 0   (0 is the sum of current peace grants: begs or gifts from mansa)[/COLOR]
    		return (iOurValue < iThreshold);
    
    iOurValue must be below 424, which translates to 212 gold, but this assumes the 'isLandTarget() is true. I will dig some more...

    edit: it would seem that we are a land target, as the proviso's are we share the same 'area' (this seems to mean land mass) and have at least 8 adjacent tiles, and we have 9. :)

    So, I reiterate that our current beg limit with Mansa would appear to be 212 gold.
     
  20. astre

    astre Chieftain

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    PPP up to theology
    Tentative grand strategy (still open for discussion!):
    *goal: Diplomatic Victory with Gandhi and Joao as voting allies.
    *use Trojan Horse to steal a ton of techs from Mansa who is likely to be a tech monster.
    *conquer Genghis (with trebs), but make sure he stays alive at 0 or 1 city, then capture Swinger’s Pad and Dr. Evil’s mainland cities.
    *spread Confu to Gandhi and Joao, build Confu AP and use it for holy wars vs. Genghis and/or Dr. Evil to get shared war diplo bonuses with Gandhi and Joao.
    *research goals: Mass Media and Fascism. Try to steal as many prerequisite techs from Mansa as possible
    *try to get a GEngineer for UN. Ideally try to be pop leader and gift away UN city to Genghis for the UN vote, so that neither Joao nor Gandhi becomes our opponent.
    *build paratroops to raze Dr. Evil's Lair, if teleporting is impossible

    Getting Swinger’s Pad (SP) to Legendary:
    *use Genghis as target civ (best / ratio), generate EP using EP slider (ideally after Mass Media/Fascicm)
    *build Palace in Ulundi for better / ratio (finish just in time for missions)
    *make sure Ulundi’s or any other city’s culture extends to SP (otherwise no spread culture mission possible)
    *build culture buildings in SP to generate seed culture and reduce the number of necessary spy missions
    *don’t use GA bombs in SP!!

    Short term objectives : build confu AP in cap and set up spy stealing machine

    Technologies:
    100% science for theology, then stop the turn, next tech to be discussed for next PPP
    Beg 160 gold to mansa to support that (to be checked on test game)

    Diplo:
    *Accept demands from Joao
    *Decline demands/begs from Gandhi (no diplo hit)
    *Demand by Mansa???
    *no demand from Genghis expected for this set
    If jao or Gandi ask for religion change > accept

    Change religion
    2 options: change religion T0 or wait jao ask for relation bonus. (to be tested)

    Unit micro:
    *missionary: go to troyan, convert the turn theo come online If autospread go cap.
    *Fembot: return cap
    *worker 1: chop (settler) then part farm the spot, then horse when possible
    *worker 2: cottage FC first then cap, then finish cottage FC
    *Worker 3 go to new city
    Worker 2 and 3 can be swaped (to be tested)

    City builds and micro:
    Washington
    granary, AP
    end granary the turn theology come in by working marble instead of neat FP (check what it change when hindu)

    Pig City
    settler (chopped)
    CH? axe? spy?

    Fish City
    worker (whipped?)
    spy
    Granary

    New city: spot to be defined: either overlap city (on coast or not) or closure city (3W or 3W1N of pigcity) or stone/crab or maybe Ghandy gift city.
    Another possibility is to settle out of our frontier to grab that iron north of us.
    This point need to be discussed and tested.
    Try to found the city before theo (for free border pop)
    First build: granary

    Check each turn:
    *available trades
    *worst enemies
    *AI enters fist mode
    *Open borders Joao-Dr. Evil?
    *Changes to AI religion
    *create manual saves, in case they are needed later

    Pause condition:
    *War declared somewhere
    * tech trade possible
    *Goldmember or Evil armies spotted.
    * AI Changes religion
    *General weirdness

    to test
    is GS yield better in mansa cap or troyan
    is 160 gold beg possible?
    test location of forth city
    test improvement with religion change T0
    general micro stuff

    Question : How to pause while there is a demand?
     

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