If we are also going to take on Joao, we need Cuirassier asap?
Or can Joao wait?
Isn't gifting cities back to Gandhi sufficient?
Or can Joao wait?
Isn't gifting cities back to Gandhi sufficient?
SGOTM 18 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Htadus
A and L's dad
US will definitely get us G'mans vote for sure. He has -5 for previous issues. The last few turns going to be so crucial, we can not afford to not have either of the AI voting for us.
Both Mansa and Gandhi has +5 with us. Without any new issues, this should jump to about 7 or 8 with both of them. Using espionage to flip Mansa to Jewish will get us the more and we need Gandhi's US to get him closer to friendly. So I think it is essential.
Joao is not a threat for us at the moment. He has not moved any of his units toward New India because he probably does not know where he is at. May be we continue our war against Shaka for the moment and only close borders with Joao when needed.
The third option is for me to not make any trades and see where Mansa is heading next since he just learned MT. If he go GP, then I will see what I can get from him next turn for GP.
Both Mansa and Gandhi has +5 with us. Without any new issues, this should jump to about 7 or 8 with both of them. Using espionage to flip Mansa to Jewish will get us the more and we need Gandhi's US to get him closer to friendly. So I think it is essential.
Joao is not a threat for us at the moment. He has not moved any of his units toward New India because he probably does not know where he is at. May be we continue our war against Shaka for the moment and only close borders with Joao when needed.
The third option is for me to not make any trades and see where Mansa is heading next since he just learned MT. If he go GP, then I will see what I can get from him next turn for GP.
Htadus
A and L's dad
I think we need to get other players input to this decision. Here is the current save. All I have done and not documented is to whip a university to start the Oxford in the capital next turn.
I can continue more or can pass it on but this decision is important. I want to be able to get civic into this picture.
Looking at the work Hawk did in this thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12875591&postcount=574
We should be fine without civic but I am finicky.
I can continue more or can pass it on but this decision is important. I want to be able to get civic into this picture.
Looking at the work Hawk did in this thread http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12875591&postcount=574
We should be fine without civic but I am finicky.
The trade of GP for Nationalism is certainly attractive, especially since Mansa is researching MT, but we can research Nationalism ourselves and not lose too much if, and only if, we can get something else of value for GP.
Looking at the save, I note that we can trade GP and 310 gold to Mansa for Theo, Drama, and have him DOW on Evil. That would seem pretty good value.
Looking at the save, I note that we can trade GP and 310 gold to Mansa for Theo, Drama, and have him DOW on Evil. That would seem pretty good value.
We don't need Drama, do we?
We could get Mansa do DOW on Dr. Evil and have Theo+50 gold+map for Gunpowder
We could self research Nationalism, to keep the possibility to get Gandhi to his favorite civ open, but this idea also rules out trading for Printing Press, Constitution and Democracy
And what about the other prerequisite techs will he ever get those?
Chemistry would probably be good for trading to Mansa
We should get another +4 for shared religion (total of +5), +2 for resources if we start gifting him some, +1 for trading/gifting techs (when we reach 20), +3 (at least) for liberating cities, this should bring us to +15, but we may get border issues (-1) and the shared war (+2) may be difficult to keep, so we could end up with +10, which should be enough
Note that refusing Gandhis request or demands does not give us any diplo hits
Some thoughts:
We could get Mansa do DOW on Dr. Evil and have Theo+50 gold+map for Gunpowder
We could self research Nationalism, to keep the possibility to get Gandhi to his favorite civ open, but this idea also rules out trading for Printing Press, Constitution and Democracy
And what about the other prerequisite techs will he ever get those? Chemistry would probably be good for trading to Mansa
We should get another +4 for shared religion (total of +5), +2 for resources if we start gifting him some, +1 for trading/gifting techs (when we reach 20), +3 (at least) for liberating cities, this should bring us to +15, but we may get border issues (-1) and the shared war (+2) may be difficult to keep, so we could end up with +10, which should be enough
Note that refusing Gandhis request or demands does not give us any diplo hits
Some thoughts:
- Maybe just sign a cease fire with Dr. Evil, we probably don't want to wait 10 turns before we DOW again, and he does not have much to offer in a peace deal (he does offer us Delhi
) - Build another spy to keep an eye on Goldmember out west
- Build courthouses in our new cities west
Mad Professor
Deity
I'm inclined to agree. Drama is not worth a whole lot to us. We need to be preferring deals that give us techs we really need.
If we can get by without declaring war on Joao I'd prefer it for the moment - I think we "have enough on our hands" with Evil.
The main value of getting Mansa to declare on him would be to take any stray Evil stacks into Mali before we declare him again and thump the stuffing out of him while his army is in Mali. Otherwise a joint war with Mali doesn't help us much yet. The end of the game is still too far off.
Htadus
A and L's dad
If we are going to delay war with Joao, then we should not be in a hurry to get peace with Shaka.
I am not sure if Gandhi can learn CS on his own in time, so assuming we can keep Gman happy without favorite civic.
These are the techs we need for Para's, turns to learn at -224 gpt and possible ways to acquire.
Research begun: Nationalism (4 Turns) Mansa
Research begun: Constitution (7 Turns) Mansa
Research begun: Corporation (5 Turns) Mansa
Research begun: Chemistry (5 Turns) Learn/Bulb
Research begun: Printing Press (4 Turns) Bulb/learn
Research begun: Replaceable Parts (6 Turns) Learn
Research begun: Rifling (8 Turns) Mansa or learn
Research begun: Steam Power (11 Turns) Mansa or learn
Research begun: Assembly Line (17 Turns) Mansa or learn
Research begun: Fascism (8 Turns) Learn
We should bulb PP with the next GS, then learn RP or Chemistry at full speed to trade for Constitution with some gold. From there it is going to be dependent upon what Mansa is learning. The good thing is he is likely head toward rifling and we can bulb our way toward UN via GS's to catch up to Mansa.
So I am now Ok with us getting Nationalism from Mansa and start learning PP at 0% science for 1 turn to see where Mansa is heading and then chose either Chem or RP.
So are you guys OK with Nationalism trade?
I am not sure if Gandhi can learn CS on his own in time, so assuming we can keep Gman happy without favorite civic.
These are the techs we need for Para's, turns to learn at -224 gpt and possible ways to acquire.
Research begun: Nationalism (4 Turns) Mansa
Research begun: Constitution (7 Turns) Mansa
Research begun: Corporation (5 Turns) Mansa
Research begun: Chemistry (5 Turns) Learn/Bulb
Research begun: Printing Press (4 Turns) Bulb/learn
Research begun: Replaceable Parts (6 Turns) Learn
Research begun: Rifling (8 Turns) Mansa or learn
Research begun: Steam Power (11 Turns) Mansa or learn
Research begun: Assembly Line (17 Turns) Mansa or learn
Research begun: Fascism (8 Turns) Learn
We should bulb PP with the next GS, then learn RP or Chemistry at full speed to trade for Constitution with some gold. From there it is going to be dependent upon what Mansa is learning. The good thing is he is likely head toward rifling and we can bulb our way toward UN via GS's to catch up to Mansa.
So I am now Ok with us getting Nationalism from Mansa and start learning PP at 0% science for 1 turn to see where Mansa is heading and then chose either Chem or RP.
So are you guys OK with Nationalism trade?
Think you forgot Flight, which requires Physics and Combustion, for Paratroopers. 
I'm OK witrh trading for Nationalism, but (as an aside) Drama can be useful when WW gets high. I like to have it.
I'm OK
We don't need Drama or Theo for now and we can deal with Dr. Evil on our own.
Once you've spent 745g on Nat, research will go down.
How much gold do we get from capturing one of Dr. Evils cities?
Agree.
Htadus
A and L's dad
Opps about flight. I rarely build Para's
T165(T+22 cont.) Made the trade and start PP at 0%. Whipped library in New Serai. Hired merchant and a engineer in NE city and started a coliseum. I want to start Taj in GK's old capital with chops. If we miss it we get gold. Joao's units moved toward GK's capital IBT.
T166(T+23) Damn. Joao moving against Gman and this pops up. See image. If we accept it, it is a free point for help and additional share war points.
I think we can hold off Joao with what we have and what I can build in next 2-3 turns. Also we can stop the war with Zulu after next city.
I would like to say yes. Are you guys OK with that?
T165(T+22 cont.) Made the trade and start PP at 0%. Whipped library in New Serai. Hired merchant and a engineer in NE city and started a coliseum. I want to start Taj in GK's old capital with chops. If we miss it we get gold. Joao's units moved toward GK's capital IBT.
T166(T+23) Damn. Joao moving against Gman and this pops up. See image. If we accept it, it is a free point for help and additional share war points.
I think we can hold off Joao with what we have and what I can build in next 2-3 turns. Also we can stop the war with Zulu after next city.
I would like to say yes. Are you guys OK with that?
Attachments
"I think we can hold off Joao with what we have and what I can build in next 2-3 turns."
You need to be pretty confident we can hold him off to even consider this. I thought we didn't lose anything by failing to comply with G's demands. Even if that's not the case, not sure we can't overcome the diplo loss from non-compliance. Rather fight Joao when it suits us.
You need to be pretty confident we can hold him off to even consider this. I thought we didn't lose anything by failing to comply with G's demands. Even if that's not the case, not sure we can't overcome the diplo loss from non-compliance. Rather fight Joao when it suits us.
Are you sure we got enough troops in our homeland to withstand an immediate attack?
Joao does have a fair amount of maces, xbows and pikes.
How much in danger is Gandhi?
Remember: Gandhi gives 0 penalty when you refuse his request for help.
Htadus
A and L's dad
With the whip, cats and about 8 whipable cities, we can do better than hold off. Our Portuguese stack is going to land near Boston too. But that is only leif and I in favor of war and 3 against. Ok, I will deny the request and close the border as needed.
The only reason I am not pushing for war is that the GA is more important right now than war.
The only reason I am not pushing for war is that the GA is more important right now than war.
Okay -- pleased that we don't have to do any more whipping right now.
After reading CP's and Z3's comment, think you made the correct decision. 
Htadus
A and L's dad
I am done. 
I though it went on forever but was a very satisfying set.
T166(T+23 cont.) Sci=0%Denied Gandhi's request and end turn. Gifted food resource to Gman.
T167(T+24) Capital starts Oxford and we can turn on science after completion. Trade paper to Joao for 75g and compass. Renegotiated the fir trade to Joao. Need to close borders with Joao and does. I moved the Portuguese stack west and they landed in uMGungun. Phew, that means more war in the west. Oh Joao built AP and we voted for ourselves.
T168(T+25) We are the head of AP. Both Mansa and Gandhi voted for us. Evil voted for Joao. Ready for next city.
T169(T+26) Took Nobomba for loss of 2 trebs, cat, maze and sword. Sent chariot to capture Goldmember worker and recon his city. He has nades but Trebs ususally do not care about them.
I am done. A lot of action is still available. I just wanted to take that city and that is all I did.
Mansa just started building the Taj(10 turns). So, next player, lets chop those forests around GK's old capital for gold or completion. Both is very welcome. Actually a free GA is better. Evil sent a sizable stack against uMGungun. We got units there but be aware of it please.
Here is the link from central:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG018_AD1080_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
I though it went on forever but was a very satisfying set.T166(T+23 cont.) Sci=0%Denied Gandhi's request and end turn. Gifted food resource to Gman.
T167(T+24) Capital starts Oxford and we can turn on science after completion. Trade paper to Joao for 75g and compass. Renegotiated the fir trade to Joao. Need to close borders with Joao and does. I moved the Portuguese stack west and they landed in uMGungun. Phew, that means more war in the west. Oh Joao built AP and we voted for ourselves.
T168(T+25) We are the head of AP. Both Mansa and Gandhi voted for us. Evil voted for Joao. Ready for next city.
T169(T+26) Took Nobomba for loss of 2 trebs, cat, maze and sword. Sent chariot to capture Goldmember worker and recon his city. He has nades but Trebs ususally do not care about them.
I am done. A lot of action is still available. I just wanted to take that city and that is all I did.
Mansa just started building the Taj(10 turns). So, next player, lets chop those forests around GK's old capital for gold or completion. Both is very welcome. Actually a free GA is better. Evil sent a sizable stack against uMGungun. We got units there but be aware of it please.
Here is the link from central:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG018_AD1080_01.CivBeyondSwordSave
Htadus! 
Lots of things got done.
Roster:
The-Hawk - UP
leif - On Deck
Cactus Pete
zamint3
Mad Professor
Htadus
Sengir
Evil's approaching stack looks impressive.
