SGOTM 18 - Xteam

[Mad Professor]

Evil's approaching stack looks impressive.

I knew he had to have another one somewhere...

Good job Htadus.

I can't look at the save or comment just yet - back later!

 

[The-Hawk]

Leif, I'm still fighting RL. I need to take a skip.

Took a quick look at the save, we've certainly made progress!

I assume we are going to cease fire with Evil as soon as possible? We can't attack him directly, will need to go up the railroad on the western map edge. Might as well get Goldmember off of our flank before we head up there.

Unless Evil completely brain freezes, he will move his stack to Joao's hill N of uMgung. From there he can attack us and we can not attack him. Also means we can't clean up his wounded. Good news is he really does not have a great stack (not enough siege), but I don't see much reason to let him attrit our units when we can't hit him back.

RE: chopping for Taj. Shouldn't we save those trees for chopping UN? Or do we have another city in mind?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Good work, Htadus.

We can wait one turn to make sure Evil does the cunning thing with his stack. This turn, move our units in anticipation of his making a bad move with his stack. Never overestimate the AI.

Why isn't Goldmember attacking us with his superior grens?

If we get Mansa in a war with Evil, would that slow his tech pace? If so, the trade advantages might make it worth the gold long term.

I will be out of town again tomorrow (and Tuesday).

 

[leif erikson]

Next two weeks are not looking good for me Civ-wise. Can you bump me? I should be able to play the week of Thanksgiving.

Do you still have time over Thanksgiving week?

If not, who does?
I will not be around much as I am going to NY City, I hope as weather is not looking good. My daughter is in the UMass Marching Band and they are marching in the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade.

 

[The-Hawk]

Do you still have time over Thanksgiving week?

I've thought about it some more. I think I can get a turnset in, although it might need to be a short one. I'll post a plan (or at least some questions) today

If not, who does?
I will not be around much as I am going to NY City, I hope as weather is not looking good. My daughter is in the UMass Marching Band and they are marching in the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade.

How cool is that!!!

 

[leif erikson]

Thanks Hawk.

Yeah, it is a pretty big deal. They go to NY City on Tuesday and we are hoping to leave on Wednesday. The weather is looking dicey right now, big storm on the way, of course. Much to get done in preparation to go.

The band is 400 members strong, here is part of one of their half-time shows from September 2013.

Link to video.

Stadium looks a bit empty because the football program leaves much to be desired, but it is also at Gillette stadium, home of the NE Patriots, and its capacity is over 68,000 people. For UMass games, generally, only the side the video is taken from is open to the public. Guess they only want to clean up half of it.

edit - see if you can find my daughter...

 

[Htadus]

leif, was she the 9th from left in the middle row? jk.

That remind me of UW's fifth quarter show. Except it was very rowdy.

Hawk, I had suggested that we build the UN in that city we just took. It has great production capacity and a few trees.

I too think we should let Evil commit some of his units to die next turn at uMGungun.

If need be I can jump in again before my normal rotation. I know I wasted too many days. So let me know.

 

[The-Hawk]

Very cool, I love marching bands.

edit - see if you can find my daughter... Ummmm, 14th from the left??? [Edit: crossed with Htadus, looks like we think alike!]

Turnset discussion:

War and Peace:

I think we are done war, except for cleaning up Goldmember. Why?

• We are well set up for UN victory. We don’t need more cities to maintain the population lead. Gandhi and Mansa will be our partners, Joao serves as a backup.
• As long as we are closed with Joao, it will be hard to build a big enough army to finish Evil. I don’t think the view is worth the climb. Maybe later when we’ve a massive tech lead, but even then, why?
• Most important… research is our critical path. We need to complete infrastructure buildout, then go 100% research.

RE: Shaka:

• I think we should make peace with Shaka immediately for gold and gpt.
• He would offer a city, but I don't see how we could make that work. Delhi would be nice, but Goldmember would capture it.

RE: Goldmember:

• I think we capture and keep the 3 cities near Swingers Pad.
• Should we capture Bombay or raze it? Depends on the culture pressure from Dehli. But also, see below, might be nice to keep it and then settle another city S of it.
• Do we want to capture Members Only? I am not sure. It could be expensive if he has Grens fortified there. And I think it might be a bit of a tough nut tactically if he has built any caravels or triremes (would really suck to lose a couple of galleys full of units. However, Sankore might be useful given we are in the AP religion. Might be worth building 1 happy, 2 hammer, 2 beaker temples. At the moment, Sankore would add about 24 bpt if we build temples, libraries, and universities in all Jewish cities. But what if he has a stack of 10 units, including a few Grens? Is it worth hundreds of hammers in Trebs and Maces to get 24 bpt? And is it worth the delay in going to 100% research? Should we suicide a unit to see units he has fortified there?

Other citiy decisions:

• What city for UN? I think Nobamba, unless we can grab the site S of Bombay. For now, we should save Nobamba's forests.
• If we keep Bombay, should we found a city 4S, 1W Bombay? Would be a good city for research, later could be a candidate for UN. Or, will we get too much culture pressure from Dehli?
• Should we settle a city 3E and 2S of Ulundi to make sure we have a jump off point for our Paras? Or can we jump off from Joao’s land? I'm a bit of a Para noob, not sure how they work.
• New Sarai is a crap city and is under pressure from Mansa. I think we should gift it to Joao to get the diplo pick up.

Diplomacy and Espionage:

• Our first priority is keeping Mansa and Gandhi happy with us.
• Our second priority (assuming not in conflict with the first) is keeping Joao happy.
• We should look for an opportunity to open borders with Joao. If necessary, trade tech to Joao for peace with G.
• Switch espionage back on Evil. Maybe share between the two so we can monitor Mansa's tech path.

City builds:

• I’m going to stop all stable and barracks builds. If we need to build units later, we can build them in cities that already have barracks. At this point, additional barracks are wasted hammers.
• For now, I will stop unit builds (unless we have hammers already invested). One exception: I will build a few units in our HE city to send down to fish city. They will either be our part of an invasion force or will sit there as defenders.
• I am tempted to stop the one colosseum being built. I don’t think it is worth the hammers, although we do have 20 invested. I would rather see us building temples instead of colosseums.
• Any city that can support 2 scientists will get a library and a university.
• Any city > 8 maintenance will get a CH.
• I don’t think we need any more banks/markets/groceries. We should be able to build enough wealth to run at 100% research all the time. If not, we could run a couple of merchants in cities that already have markets (like fish). Might be worth a bank in fish, but I think we can wait and see if we need it.
• Should we build culture buildings in Swingers Pad? I'm not sure if we lose the culture on them when we gift the city back, then recapture it.

Tech path:

• Clearly we need to beeline UN, but what is our next tech after PP? Astronomy and Corporations are both good techs because they will boost our research rate. Do we head for them, or hope to get them in trade? I am thinking we head to Astro next, but would like to hear other ideas on this.
• Do we need to sidetrack for emancipation? How do the unhappies work? Will we stay at -1 until a second AI goes Emancipation? If we will only be -1 for a while (no other AI is close to Democracy), then maybe we can live with it for a while.

Religion/Civics:

• We need to switch to representation. Pretty soon Caste will be useful, although it would be good to whip some buildings first. Also, at some point we will need to go to emancipation. I am not sure about Pacifism. It only affects 8 cities. The paradox is we need to be in OR to spread Judaism more.
• My thought here… I think we wait until we’ve built out key infrastructure (especially Oxford). During this time, we might be able to whip a key building or two (e.g. some CH’s to the west). I might also spam a missionary or two to spread Judaism to any high food cities that could benefit from Pacifism. Once we have Oxford, we use our GS to start a GA and switch to Representation, Caste, and Pacifism.

 

[zamint3]

Comments in blue

Turnset discussion:

War and Peace:

I think we are done war, except for cleaning up Goldmember. Why?

• We are well set up for UN victory. We don’t need more cities to maintain the population lead. Gandhi and Mansa will be our partners, Joao serves as a backup.
• As long as we are closed with Joao, it will be hard to build a big enough army to finish Evil. I don’t think the view is worth the climb. Maybe later when we’ve a massive tech lead, but even then, why? We probably need the former Indian cities to liberate to Gandhi
• Most important… research is our critical path. We need to complete infrastructure buildout, then go 100% research.

RE: Shaka:

• I think we should make peace with Shaka immediately for gold and gpt.
• He would offer a city, but I don't see how we could make that work. Delhi would be nice, but Goldmember would capture it.

RE: Goldmember:

• I think we capture and keep the 3 cities near Swingers Pad. This will be a costly affair
• Should we capture Bombay or raze it? Depends on the culture pressure from Dehli. But also, see below, might be nice to keep it and then settle another city S of it.
• Do we want to capture Members Only? I am not sure. It could be expensive if he has Grens fortified there. And I think it might be a bit of a tough nut tactically if he has built any caravels or triremes (would really suck to lose a couple of galleys full of units. However, Sankore might be useful given we are in the AP religion. Might be worth building 1 happy, 2 hammer, 2 beaker temples. At the moment, Sankore would add about 24 bpt if we build temples, libraries, and universities in all Jewish cities. But what if he has a stack of 10 units, including a few Grens? Is it worth hundreds of hammers in Trebs and Maces to get 24 bpt? And is it worth the delay in going to 100% research? Should we suicide a unit to see units he has fortified there?

Other citiy decisions:

• What city for UN? I think Nobamba, unless we can grab the site S of Bombay. For now, we should save Nobamba's forests.
• If we keep Bombay, should we found a city 4S, 1W Bombay? It would develop too slowly I think Would be a good city for research, later could be a candidate for UN. Or, will we get too much culture pressure from Dehli?
• Should we settle a city 3E and 2S of Ulundi to make sure we have a jump off point for our Paras? Or can we jump off from Joao’s land? I'm a bit of a Para noob, not sure how they work. They do need a city to jump from and they need an unoccupied visible tile to drop into
• New Sarai is a crap city and is under pressure from Mansa. I think we should gift it to Joao to get the diplo pick up.

Diplomacy and Espionage:

• Our first priority is keeping Mansa and Gandhi happy with us.
• Our second priority (assuming not in conflict with the first) is keeping Joao happy.
• We should look for an opportunity to open borders with Joao. If necessary, trade tech to Joao for peace with G. He will open his borders again in a few turns, and we should watch out for worst enemy of Gandhi
• Switch espionage back on Evil. Maybe share between the two so we can monitor Mansa's tech path.

City builds:

• I’m going to stop all stable and barracks builds. If we need to build units later, we can build them in cities that already have barracks. At this point, additional barracks are wasted hammers.
• For now, I will stop unit builds (unless we have hammers already invested). One exception: I will build a few units in our HE city to send down to fish city. They will either be our part of an invasion force or will sit there as defenders.
• I am tempted to stop the one colosseum being built. I don’t think it is worth the hammers, although we do have 20 invested. I would rather see us building temples instead of colosseums. Temples yes
• Any city that can support 2 scientists will get a library and a university.
• Any city > 8 maintenance will get a CH.
• I don’t think we need any more banks/markets/groceries. We should be able to build enough wealth to run at 100% research all the time. If not, we could run a couple of merchants in cities that already have markets (like fish). Might be worth a bank in fish, but I think we can wait and see if we need it.
• Should we build culture buildings in Swingers Pad? I'm not sure if we lose the culture on them when we gift the city back, then recapture it. We wont lose it, it's good to have some (a lot of) culture in the city before the espionage missions begins

Tech path:

• Clearly we need to beeline UN, but what is our next tech after PP? Astronomy and Corporations are both good techs because they will boost our research rate. Do we head for them, or hope to get them in trade? I am thinking we head to Astro next, but would like to hear other ideas on this. Astronomy could be a good idea, we might even get there first
• Do we need to sidetrack for emancipation? How do the unhappies work? Will we stay at -1 until a second AI goes Emancipation? If we will only be -1 for a while (no other AI is close to Democracy), then maybe we can live with it for a while.I think we'll stay at -1 until more AI run the civic

Religion/Civics:

• We need to switch to representation. Pretty soon Caste will be useful, although it would be good to whip some buildings first. Also, at some point we will need to go to emancipation. I am not sure about Pacifism. It only affects 8 cities. The paradox is we need to be in OR to spread Judaism more.Build monasteries! Especially in our high research cities, with the extra AP hammers they are worth it, and even after Scientific Method you can still use them to build missionaries
• My thought here… I think we wait until we’ve built out key infrastructure (especially Oxford). During this time, we might be able to whip a key building or two (e.g. some CH’s to the west). I might also spam a missionary or two to spread Judaism to any high food cities that could benefit from Pacifism. Once we have Oxford, we use our GS to start a GA and switch to Representation, Caste, and Pacifism.

 

[leif erikson]

Very cool, I love marching bands.

I enjoy them as well.

War and Peace:

I think we are done war, except for cleaning up Goldmember. Why?

• We are well set up for UN victory. We don’t need more cities to maintain the population lead. Gandhi and Mansa will be our partners, Joao serves as a backup.
• As long as we are closed with Joao, it will be hard to build a big enough army to finish Evil. I don’t think the view is worth the climb. Maybe later when we’ve a massive tech lead, but even then, why?
• Most important… research is our critical path. We need to complete infrastructure buildout, then go 100% research.

I can buy this as research is our critical path. I'm not so sure that Joao will be in tune with this. I also thought that we were planning to reestablish Gandhi in his old stomping ground? Is this not necessary? We could restore Delhi to him, along with Bombay, if we can take it.

I guess the question we need to ask is if it is worth the hammers?

Somehow, I think Shaka (Evil) is going to find something to do with his stacks of troops. And I doubt we will like it very much.

RE: Shaka:

• I think we should make peace with Shaka immediately for gold and gpt.
• He would offer a city, but I don't see how we could make that work. Delhi would be nice, but Goldmember would capture it.

What if we gift it to Gandhi, along with a few units. Will he teleport them there or does he have to march them?

RE: Goldmember:

• I think we capture and keep the 3 cities near Swingers Pad.
• Should we capture Bombay or raze it? Depends on the culture pressure from Dehli. But also, see below, might be nice to keep it and then settle another city S of it.
• Do we want to capture Members Only? I am not sure. It could be expensive if he has Grens fortified there. And I think it might be a bit of a tough nut tactically if he has built any caravels or triremes (would really suck to lose a couple of galleys full of units. However, Sankore might be useful given we are in the AP religion. Might be worth building 1 happy, 2 hammer, 2 beaker temples. At the moment, Sankore would add about 24 bpt if we build temples, libraries, and universities in all Jewish cities. But what if he has a stack of 10 units, including a few Grens? Is it worth hundreds of hammers in Trebs and Maces to get 24 bpt? And is it worth the delay in going to 100% research? Should we suicide a unit to see units he has fortified there?

Wouldn't our fight with Goldmember go better with Cuirassier?

Again, what will be the hammer and beaker cost to defeat him? Is it worth that?

Other citiy decisions:

• What city for UN? I think Nobamba, unless we can grab the site S of Bombay. For now, we should save Nobamba's forests.
• If we keep Bombay, should we found a city 4S, 1W Bombay? Would be a good city for research, later could be a candidate for UN. Or, will we get too much culture pressure from Dehli?
• Should we settle a city 3E and 2S of Ulundi to make sure we have a jump off point for our Paras? Or can we jump off from Joao’s land? I'm a bit of a Para noob, not sure how they work.
• New Sarai is a crap city and is under pressure from Mansa. I think we should gift it to Joao to get the diplo pick up.

Like your idea for UN City south of Bombay, if we can take Bombay and either gift to Gandhi or keep it.

Agree we will need a city from which we can launch Paratroopers, they have a range of 5 tiles.

Diplomacy and Espionage:

• Our first priority is keeping Mansa and Gandhi happy with us.
• Our second priority (assuming not in conflict with the first) is keeping Joao happy.
• We should look for an opportunity to open borders with Joao. If necessary, trade tech to Joao for peace with G.
• Switch espionage back on Evil. Maybe share between the two so we can monitor Mansa's tech path.

Who are we planning to give Swinger's Pad to, Evil? If so, we need to keep EP's on him as much as possible.

What will we plan to do if Joao continues to go after Gandhi, or if Evil decides to go after Gandhi, or Joao?

City builds:

• I’m going to stop all stable and barracks builds. If we need to build units later, we can build them in cities that already have barracks. At this point, additional barracks are wasted hammers.
• For now, I will stop unit builds (unless we have hammers already invested). One exception: I will build a few units in our HE city to send down to fish city. They will either be our part of an invasion force or will sit there as defenders.
• I am tempted to stop the one colosseum being built. I don’t think it is worth the hammers, although we do have 20 invested. I would rather see us building temples instead of colosseums.
• Any city that can support 2 scientists will get a library and a university.
• Any city > 8 maintenance will get a CH.
• I don’t think we need any more banks/markets/groceries. We should be able to build enough wealth to run at 100% research all the time. If not, we could run a couple of merchants in cities that already have markets (like fish). Might be worth a bank in fish, but I think we can wait and see if we need it.
• Should we build culture buildings in Swingers Pad? I'm not sure if we lose the culture on them when we gift the city back, then recapture it.

We will lose the culture in Swinger's Pad but then regain it when we take the city back. The culture buildings will be gone iirc. Isn't the espionage culture mission based upon a percentage of culture in the city already? If so, the more we have, the more we will gain.

Tech path:

• Clearly we need to beeline UN, but what is our next tech after PP? Astronomy and Corporations are both good techs because they will boost our research rate. Do we head for them, or hope to get them in trade? I am thinking we head to Astro next, but would like to hear other ideas on this.
• Do we need to sidetrack for emancipation? How do the unhappies work? Will we stay at -1 until a second AI goes Emancipation? If we will only be -1 for a while (no other AI is close to Democracy), then maybe we can live with it for a while.

Agree with Astro next.

Can we get far enough ahead of Mansa to trade for Constitution and Democracy?
We will need Caste for the forseaable future anyway, so will have to bear the emancipation penalty for a while.

Religion/Civics:

• We need to switch to representation. Pretty soon Caste will be useful, although it would be good to whip some buildings first. Also, at some point we will need to go to emancipation. I am not sure about Pacifism. It only affects 8 cities. The paradox is we need to be in OR to spread Judaism more.
• My thought here… I think we wait until we’ve built out key infrastructure (especially Oxford). During this time, we might be able to whip a key building or two (e.g. some CH’s to the west). I might also spam a missionary or two to spread Judaism to any high food cities that could benefit from Pacifism. Once we have Oxford, we use our GS to start a GA and switch to Representation, Caste, and Pacifism.

Can't we build some Monasteries, they provide +10% research and are not obsolete until Scientific Method. Then we can build Missionaries without OR.

 

[Mad Professor]

Sci Meth is a critical tech as it obsoletes both monasteries and the GL. But we WILL need it on the way to Mass Media.

Is a G.Spy out of the question? The NE city would be the best bet and that's not a very good bet now I don't think.

What are our chances of getting Gandhi's vote without getting one or more of his cities back? If we need more war in the west isn't sooner better than later? We are out produced by Evil in the west and since we have closed borders with Joao, getting more troops from our heartland without declaring war on Joao is impossible. This is not an easy question to answer I don't think. I would like to see us take some ex-Indian cities in case we need some more plusses from Gandhi, but getting them is going to be quite hard, and for the time being, peace might be a good idea in the west - yet that contradicts what I just said at the beginning of the paragraph!

I think it's very important to be ready to settle a city from which we can launch paratroopers if there are no available cities to do it from. Knowing the precise location of Evil's lair would be good, but that just means building a blimp soon after getting physics (which we will have to get along the way anyway).

 

[The-Hawk]

(RE: peace with Evil): We probably need the former Indian cities to liberate to Gandhi

I also thought that we were planning to reestablish Gandhi in his old stomping ground?

What are our chances of getting Gandhi's vote without getting one or more of his cities back? If we need more war in the west isn't sooner better than later? We are out produced by Evil in the west and since we have closed borders with Joao, getting more troops from our heartland without declaring war on Joao is impossible. This is not an easy question to answer I don't think. I would like to see us take some ex-Indian cities in case we need some more plusses from Gandhi, but getting them is going to be quite hard, and for the time being, peace might be a good idea in the west - yet that contradicts what I just said at the beginning of the paragraph!

I'm not sure we will need to give G cities. If G stays in Judaism, we may be OK. If we decide we need to liberate some of his cities, we can always attack later?

I am not sure we have the units in the West to finish Evil. He has quite a few cities to go. We need to leave defenders against Goldmember and will need to leave MPs in each Evil city we capture. I think we should hold off until we are sure we need to attack him. We will have better units after we've teched further. We will get cannons and rifles on the way to paras.

(RE: taking Goldmember cities near Swingers Pad) This will be a costly affair

Wouldn't our fight with Goldmember go better with Cuirassier?
Again, what will be the hammer and beaker cost to defeat him? Is it worth that?

My concern with leaving them is we are always at war with GM. He could end up sending a steady stream of units after us. Maybe this is not a bad thing if we can set up some defenders on hills around Nombaba and entice him into kill zones.

Similar to Evil, maybe it is worth waiting for better units.

(RE: settling S of Bombay) It would develop too slowly I think

Like your idea for UN City south of Bombay, if we can take Bombay and either gift to Gandhi or keep it.

Z might be right. It is a pretty food-poor site. Will not fast unless we borrow the pigs from Bombay.

If we settle up here and keep Bombay, we also will have to defend 2 fronts against Evil.

(RE: Settling SE of Ulundi). They do need a city to jump from and they need an unoccupied visible tile to drop into

Agree we will need a city from which we can launch Paratroopers, they have a range of 5 tiles.

I think it's very important to be ready to settle a city from which we can launch paratroopers if there are no available cities to do it from. Knowing the precise location of Evil's lair would be good,

We know exactly where the Lair is. We can see the culture borders and Great Wall SE of Ulundi. I'm pretty sure it is 6S and 1E of Lagos. What we don't know is where we can land our paras. However settling a city 3E and 2S of Ulundi should allow us to drop them right next to the city. I think we should grab this spot before Evil culture pops and blocks it.

(RE: open borders with Joao). we should watch out for worst enemy of Gandhi

Yes, this might get dicey. Hopefully G will get better with Joao since they share religion.

(RE: take a city from Shaka for peace). What if we gift it to Gandhi, along with a few units.

Shaka is at war with Gandhi. He would simply take it back.

Who are we planning to give Swinger's Pad to, Evil? If so, we need to keep EP's on him as much as possible.

I would think Evil. He won't get votes.

What will we plan to do if Joao continues to go after Gandhi, or if Evil decides to go after Gandhi, or Joao?

I'm hoping Joao will lose interest in Gandhi because of shared religion. Would be nice if we could get Joao and Evil into a war... then we could backstab Evil.

Evil is already at war with Gandhi, but I can't see him threatening him.

 

[leif erikson]

I'm not sure we will need to give G cities. If G stays in Judaism, we may be OK. If we decide we need to liberate some of his cities, we can always attack later?

I am not sure we have the units in the West to finish Evil. He has quite a few cities to go. We need to leave defenders against Goldmember and will need to leave MPs in each Evil city we capture. I think we should hold off until we are sure we need to attack him. We will have better units after we've teched further. We will get cannons and rifles on the way to paras.

Agree, units are the issue with continuing to attack Evil. Besides, we must defend against GoldMember until we can summon the strength to overwhelm him.

My concern with leaving them is we are always at war with GM. He could end up sending a steady stream of units after us. Maybe this is not a bad thing if we can set up some defenders on hills around Nombaba and entice him into kill zones.

Similar to Evil, maybe it is worth waiting for better units.

Agree, this may be the best route now.

Z might be right. It is a pretty food-poor site. Will not fast unless we borrow the pigs from Bombay.

If we settle up here and keep Bombay, we also will have to defend 2 fronts against Evil.

Yes, it is food poor and our inability to deal with GM or Evil atm means that waiting until a better opportunity presents itself may be the best course.

We know exactly where the Lair is. We can see the culture borders and Great Wall SE of Ulundi. I'm pretty sure it is 6S and 1E of Lagos. What we don't know is where we can land our paras. However settling a city 3E and 2S of Ulundi should allow us to drop them right next to the city. I think we should grab this spot before Evil culture pops and blocks it.

Agree.

Yes, this might get dicey. Hopefully G will get better with Joao since they share religion.

I hope so. Getting Joao into war with Evil would be nice.

How about Mansa at war with Evil?

Shaka is at war with Gandhi. He would simply take it back.

Yeah, unfortunately I agree.

I would think Evil. He won't get votes.

Yes, he is not well liked atm.

I'm hoping Joao will lose interest in Gandhi because of shared religion. Would be nice if we could get Joao and Evil into a war... then we could backstab Evil.

Evil is already at war with Gandhi, but I can't see him threatening him.

Would be nice if Joao got interested in Evil. Be nice to get a shared war bonus.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Long but good discussion to wade through. Concur with all the key conclusions reached. Would point out that Evil city near Mansa could be gifted to Mansa. Not critical but would weaken Evil just a bit.

 

[Htadus]

Can we not use AP to get Joao and Gandhi get along?

If we get peace with Evil, we stop building mutual diplo with Gandhi. Then we might need to get those cities to gift back to Gandhi. But that can be done later. However, Evil is not going to take any city we have and will get his units killed. Lets mutual struggle grow.

If we are so concerned about Grenades, wait for cuirasses. all we need is 1 tech break along the way to MM to trade for it. Let Mansa help us out as much as possible. Our tech path should be guided by what GS's and maybe GM's can bulb. We should focus on MM. Bulb as much as we can. SM, Phy, Elect are all GS bulbs as well as Astro. Astro gives us another science boost building.

Remember, GM is a barb unit. They do not attack well. The grenade that is in that city will likely kill the chariot and may provide opportunity to take those cities. 2 trebs can take that city with the 2 Grenades.

You all know how to draw out barb archers with warriors right? We can use LB/muskets for the same thing. Kill them in the open. But that trick is for highly defended cities and you only have few units.



As for Hawks plan, I do agree that we should focus all our attention to techs and let Joao alone if possible to be our UN opponent. Good with temples.

We can use friendly cities to airdrop from, but lets claim our own city.

Evil can not touch Gman.

Culture buildings in SPad.

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, based on feedback, here is the plan without all the discussion:

Turnset discussion:

War and Peace:

• I will make peace with Shaka immediately for gold and gpt. If he offers a city near Mansa, I will take it and gift it to Mansa.
• I will not attack GM cities unless he leaves one hanging out to dry. I’ll set up counter attack units to try to lure his pillagers onto flat tiles
• I will not explore Members Only, will build a couple of defenders for Fish City.

Other citiy decisions:

• For now, I will save Nobamba's forests for potential UN.
• I will settle a city 3E and 2S of Ulundi to make sure we have a jump off point for our Paras.
• I will gift New Sarai to Joao to get the diplo pick up.

Diplomacy and Espionage:

• Our first priority is keeping Mansa and Gandhi happy with us.
• Our second priority (assuming not in conflict with the first) is keeping Joao happy.
• We should look for an opportunity to open borders with Joao. If necessary, trade tech to Joao for peace with G.
• If AP vote comes up, I will use it to stop Joao’s war with Gandhi.
• Switch espionage back on Evil. Maybe share between the two so we can monitor Mansa's tech path.

City builds:

• I’m going to stop all stable and barracks builds.
• For now, I will stop unit builds (unless we have hammers already invested). One exception: I will build a few units in our HE city to send down to fish city.
• Religious cities will get temples, religious cities with good research potential will get monasteries.
• Any city that can support 2 scientists will get a library and a university.
• Any city > 8 maintenance will get a CH.
• If we can’t run at 100% research, I will build a bank in fish.
• I will build culture buildings in Swingers Pad.

Tech path:

• Astro after PP.

Religion/Civics:

• I will wait until we’ve built out key infrastructure (especially Oxford) before launching the GA.
• During this time, I will do minimal whipping (maybe some CH’s to the west).
• I will look to spread Judaism to any high food cities that could benefit from Pacifism.
• Once we have Oxford, I will use our GS to start a GA and switch to Representation, Caste, and Pacifism.

Questions for the team: Sevopedia says we can vote to sign a defensive pact "with all members". Same for Open Borders, trade embargo, DOW. I am not clear on which AP options only apply to "full members" and which also include "voting members"? Does anyone know?

Also, do we need to have researched defensive pacts to get this vote? Finally, if we get a DP with Joao and G, will it cause a negative modifier with Mansa (similar to a normal DP)?

We have a strong AP position. Along with forcing Joao to stop attacking Gandhi, we have other options. Next time we decide to go to war with Evil, it would be good if we could call others into that war.

Htadus, in the past, you've talked about using AP to force Mansa back to Judaism. How does this work? I don't see an option on the list of votes available?

 

[leif erikson]

Looks good Hawk.

Just one question:
If we can "buy" Joao ending his war with Gandhi, then could we use the AP vote to force Evil to end his war with Gandhi?

 

[Htadus]

OK, based on feedback, here is the plan without all the discussion:

Turnset discussion:

snip

Other citiy decisions:

• For now, I will save Nobamba's forests for potential UN.
• I will settle a city 3E and 2S of Ulundi to make sure we have a jump off point for our Paras.
• I will gift New Sarai to Joao to get the diplo pick up.There is a difference between gifting a city and liberating. I would not give New Serai to Joao unless it says that we can liberate it to Joao.

Diplomacy and Espionage:

• Our first priority is keeping Mansa and Gandhi happy with us.
• Our second priority (assuming not in conflict with the first) is keeping Joao happy.
• We should look for an opportunity to open borders with Joao. If necessary, trade tech to Joao for peace with G.We should only do this if we need to get OB. We should not speed up Joao. He is close with Evil and there no reason to speed his tech process.
• If AP vote comes up, I will use it to stop Joao’s war with Gandhi. I think this will force peace on all Jewish states.
• Switch espionage back on Evil. Maybe share between the two so we can monitor Mansa's tech path.Yes we need to continue monitoring him.

City builds:

snip

Yes on buildings but what about the Taj? Are you going to ignore it?
Tech path:

• Astro after PP.

Religion/Civics:

• I will wait until we’ve built out key infrastructure (especially Oxford) before launching the GA.
• During this time, I will do minimal whipping (maybe some CH’s to the west).
• I will look to spread Judaism to any high food cities that could benefit from Pacifism.
• Once we have Oxford, I will use our GS to start a GA and switch to Representation, Caste, and Pacifism.I would recommend using Mercantile civic also for GP boost

Questions for the team: Sevopedia says we can vote to sign a defensive pact "with all members". Same for Open Borders, trade embargo, DOW. I am not clear on which AP options only apply to "full members" and which also include "voting members"? Does anyone know? I believe it is for all members.
This is from the WA.

3. Force Peace on X
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Full Member and at war with a Member.
If passed, a 10-turn unbreakable peace treaty is implemented among all Members.

Here is the link. http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/apostolicpalace.php


Also, do we need to have researched defensive pacts to get this vote? Finally, if we get a DP with Joao and G, will it cause a negative modifier with Mansa (similar to a normal DP)?

We have a strong AP position. Along with forcing Joao to stop attacking Gandhi, we have other options. Next time we decide to go to war with Evil, it would be good if we could call others into that war.

Htadus, in the past, you've talked about using AP to force Mansa back to Judaism. How does this work? I don't see an option on the list of votes available?

I hope I said that we can force religion switch with espionage points.

Looks good Hawk.

Just one question:
If we can "buy" Joao ending his war with Gandhi, then could we use the AP vote to force Evil to end his war with Gandhi?

We should not buy peace but use AP to force it on members.
If they do not defy it, it would also allow us to OB with all members. But remember, peace first and then OB. Not the other way around.

 

[Htadus]

You know what? I do not think we should accept any of Evil cities, as a matte of fact, lets help him be #2 Ai naturally. The more I think of what Hawk is saying more it seem a good idea. For that matter any city we do not need from GMember, can be Evils.

 

[The-Hawk]

There is a difference between gifting a city and liberating. I would not give New Serai to Joao unless it says that we can liberate it to Joao.

I didn't know this, will modify my plan. Do we only get diplo points if we liberate?

We should only do this if we need to get OB. We should not speed up Joao. He is close with Evil and there no reason to speed his tech process.

I'm assuming Evil and Joao will part ways soon enough. But on the other hand, no reason to speed up Joao. I'll focus on AP to get peace (vs. techs).

Yes on buildings but what about the Taj? Are you going to ignore it?

Right, almost forgot. I'll make a run at Taj somewhere, but not in Nombaba. At the very least, we'll get failed gold.

I would recommend using Mercantile civic also for GP boost

I don't have the game open, but I'll take a look when the time comes. We may lose a lot of commerce from lost foreign trade.

I hope I said that we can force religion switch with espionage points.

Ummm.... yeah, you probably did.
I am concerned about trying this on Mansa unless we are desperate. Failed spies will push us further negative.

I do not think we should accept any of Evil cities, as a matte of fact, lets help him be #2 Ai naturally.

Interesting thought, then we don't need to gift UN. Only issue is he may get overpowering in his size. On the other hand, he will never tech with us... we should be able to manage him with superior techs. I am thinking we should build UN in Nombaba, then watch the population situation as we get closer.

For now though, I agree we should not gift his city to Mansa. No reason to make Mansa faster to space (although it does look like he is heading to culture).