SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[pomthom]

Looking excellent

I have a very good RNG feeling about your set Duckweed, kossin is probably right about the soundjata effect

Off to work! (Yes it's 6AM here...)

 

[Duckweed]

I'm more eyeing a production economy down the line, which has about the same ETA as cottage maturation at this point; hence more food for more population. Non-rep specialists are good before T50, to control happiness or for GPP, that's about it.

There are 2 things make production economy a great way -- Factories + plants and SP civic. The former seems unlikely in this game, Communism might worth a try, especially if we are short of a different type of GP to run last GA. Even though, it's very late and almost the end of the game.

Before those 2, even with Guild and Chemistry (also will be quite late since we are going to prioritized techs on upper tree), WS (2 citizens working on a farm and a WS yield 4H during GA) is almost the same as a fresh cottage (2 citizens yields 4C). WS might be better with CS civic since it offers 1H more. However, cottage can grow in 10 turns and become better.

In conclusion, there's no strong reason for hammer economy before we are close to Chemistry. When will you estimate the date of Chemistry? I don't see 1AD to be a close date. T140~150 might be possible.

Anyway, ~1AD should be cutoff point for new cottages.

~~~
Your RNG luck is quite fantastic! Or maybe that is the soundjata effect

If you consider 88% odd of GS to be fantastic, then yes. I got a GA in the test game though.

Did you get a visual on Toku defences? G'night

I am sending the 1st arriving HA to scout Toku's cities.

Good work. Hopefully Alex will make some headway against Napoleon and not get steamrolled, but since he has to attack a hill city first, he probably won't.

The hill city fell in the 1st moment. Alex now has 8 cities and Nappy has 9.

A minor point:

Spoiler :

Are you moving 1-movement troops from the unroaded Desert Hill to the Forest? Or stopping the HArchers from ending their turn outside our borders (in the north too)?

Or did that Elephant squash a barbarian?

No, I'm quite lazy at micro, so all I did is pointing the final destination and click go!

GS is good news. In the last SGOTM, I think kossin generated a (bad) Great Merchant at ~3% odds and I then generated a Great Artist at ~4% odds. We ended up bulbing Railroad and Mass Media, IIRC.

I generated a GSpy in a previous BOTM with only 1 turn of hiring a spy by the city governor.

4GP GA is barely worth for a big well setup empire (30+ cities) and usually for SSV. We can aim for 3 GP GA in this game.

In SGOTM16, we gave up the 4 GP GA due to good luck of producing 4 GSs in a row, however we actually did not lose too much by using those GSs to bub instead of the GA.

All those GS were born in ~20% odd and any other types of GP will let us succeed in 4GP GA plan. Guess you know who did that.

Looking excellent

I have a very good RNG feeling about your set Duckweed, kossin is probably right about the soundjata effect

Off to work! (Yes it's 6AM here...)

Those things are not game break luck, your battles on Constantinople was crucial, although Doshin showed 90% odd of succeeding in the tests. First time I felt nervous about the result.

 

[Doshin]

Took me a while to find this RNG note, but I remember it making me laugh :

Spoiler :

F*** this.
Sh** luck.

Shoot me.

No, I'm quite lazy at micro, so all I did is pointing the final destination and click go!

Well, I would at your laziness, but I guess your overall contribution to the game still works out as a positive to the team, so I will allow it.

Did Alex just declare this turn? It doesn't matter, I'm just wondering whether Alex or Nappy could bribe some other AI into the war.

 

[kossin]

Yea, I think I used up all my luck in SGOTM11 to pop a gems from a mine in the capital. All downhill from there

@Duckweed

Like I said, cottages will take 35~40 turns to mature to village. The cutoff date I suggested is ~1AD or ~T115.
115+35 = T150, the point at which we'll have the necessary technologies for workshops.

Beyond 1AD, workers shouldn't be adding cottages, but farms and workshops (maybe pre-improving workshops/watermills/windmills for a fast switch too).

State Property is likely to be used for the economy, we need Democracy+Corporation+one of Railroad/Medicine/... if we go there quickly [as in Lib>Communism], Kremlin becomes a good investment too.

 

[Duckweed]

^What I explained is that WS is no better than fresh cottage even having Chemistry, is worse than hamlet even with CS civic, no comparison with villages. It only make sense to stop build cottages ~10 turns before having Chemistry. That's why I asked this in previous post.

"When will you estimate the date of Chemistry? I don't see 1AD to be a close date. T140~150 might be possible."

 

[kossin]

So, no State Property beeline?

Cuirassiers+whip+commerce route?

 

[Duckweed]

Many things are not clear for now.

Which corporation? GE is unpredictable. What resources does the barbarian city own?

If going for Sushi, besides PP, Chemistry, we could bulb SM as well.

As I said, we have to prioritized the upper tree 1st, including MT, Democracy, and maybe Corporation, all those will take us to T140~150 already. Communism requires Liberalism, hence can't be Liberalismed. It's a great tech to have, however, will the cost of itself (extra beakers, better liberalism free tech) get paid by the gain? Even we beeline to it after MT, we still need either Astro (might or might not be a necessary tech) or Chemistry route and then SM to research it. That's still a long way, we are almost in the end of the game already.

Cottages require nothing in the 1st place, the major reason why I said cottage is the best improvement is because of the continuous golden ages that we are going to run, which make them actually a hamlet from start.

You might have impression that I favor farm than cottage from previous games. I don't, I only favor things that fit the game. Farm is usually better than cottage in military competition. In SSV like game, farm is more flexible since it can be switched to WS when the bonus are ready. As I mentioned, factories and plants are game breaking infrastructures, which boost the WS improvements. but are unlikely in this game.

 

[soundjata]

I can feel the barb city has a fish. Is it coastal?

 

[Doshin]

Rice is possible too.

Can we build Ironclads without Compass and Optics? If so, Mining Inc. is looking increasingly strong. The main problem, as we've always known, is generating a GE, especially without a Forge.

 

[Duckweed]

T99 Alex blow the war horn

Spoiler :

T100 3rd GS from capital

Spoiler :

T102 A demand from Nappy, which lower his altitude to cautious again.

Spoiler :

Toku's copper site, guess his copper was pillaged by barbarian

Spoiler :

The good news 1st, 2 AIs have MC now. Alex and Nappy have not completed any new tech since I traded Calendar to them (that's T92), they must research a relatively big tech, Feudalism or CS is more likely.

Spoiler :

Bad news Next, Toku is 1 turn from Feudalism. Also you can see Toku's SoD, looks like that they are heading somewhere, a barbarian city or Lalibela.

Spoiler :

I'd like to continue to T106 so that we can plan for the golden age, especially GP production.

A few issues to be discussed:

• Complete MoM and HG now and start GA next turn?
• Trade Lit for map and cash from HC and then trade map around, the order would be Alex, KK, Nappy.
• Put the OF in SeaHorse to mids? build wealth in Golden sands and put the OF to mids next turn?
• The EPs on Toku is enough for a revolt since the spy will get full bonus. Unless we want to produce 1 more spy for backup, there's no need for more EPs on Toku whether we succeed or fail the mission. The question, who to focus on next? HC for vision of his tech choice or KK for future city revolt.
• 2 workers to cottage the grassland in Sea Horse
• 2 workers in capital road the shortest path to Constantinople
• The worker in BS is going to connect the Pig so that we could trade sheep from Nappy next turn.

There's not much difference from the 250BC test save I posted before, the only difference is that we completed Paper in real game. If you want to look at the live save, I could upload.

 

[Doshin]

I'm good to trade Literature to HC for his map and cash.

Shall we discus the other issues after that? If we can see every AI city on the map, we can better judge EP targets, HG timing, fail gold, and so on.

 

[Duckweed]

I'm fine to trade the map and then upload for a better assessment.

I think EPs on HC could be a better choice since we are able to trade his monopoly tech if we switch to no religion.

About HG timing and GA, as I said before, the bureaucracy bonus are quite big now, which is worth the production of 10 more citizens already. Moreover, the GA lets us reach Edu and Nat faster.

I'm not sure where to put the OF, the reason to mids is that it's not bad that we complete it ourselves. The PS bonus is good when we start to whip Cuis. Capital could complete mids in 7~8 turn during golden age.

I'll wait for a while before going ahead.

 

[Doshin]

I'm very much in favor of building the MoM and starting a GA, in accordance with the earlier plan.

The only reason I hesitate with the Hanging Gardens is that we might be able to delay this until a very late stage in the game. Does HC have any Aqueducts yet? Is it better to have 10 free citizens now, or ~14 free citizens with bigger cities when the second GA begins?

Without looking at the save, I would be happy to build it now (safer, immediate GA ROI, we can begin to generate GE points).

Do we have enough EP to revolt Toku's city after we declare war? We will lose the open borders discount, right?

Otherwise, HC is almost certainly a better target than Kublai. We can always revolt his cities, since he has a hill capital boosted by the Oracle's culture. Kublai's first two cities are on flatland, I think, as is his capital. Moreover, HC is the tech leader. He will research more quickly and will be attacked on a later turn, so he is more likely to have useful techs (to steal) and Castles (to be blown up).

I approve of waiting a while for others to comment.

 

[Duckweed]

10 more citizens during GA is going to produce ~25C per turn, and 8GPP from early HG in capital. We won't capture 3 Toku's cities before T121, so delaying 6 turns for 3 more pops is a negative gain.

If you look at my previous screenshot, you will see that we need 305 EPs to revolt Lalibela, with 10% stationary bonus only. We have 305 EPs on Toku now, 50% stationary discount should be enough to compensate the loss of 25% OB discount, less discount from lower EP ratio, and longer distant from capital. Moreover, we could check the turn we DOWed or 1 turn earlier to make sure we have enough EPs, otherwise just focus on Toku again.

 

[Doshin]

I can't see the EP in the last screen, but I believe you and it is not difficult to switch our EP back, as you say.

To add to your arguments about the Hanging Gardens, it will add ~30 to the Education bulb (probably more with scaling).

I hadn't considered Police State, but yes it would be useful and would pay back after only ten Cuirassiers. Will the timing with the Monastery, University, and Oxford work out?

It would also be good to start the second Golden Age before we build the Taj, for the extra GA turn.

I assume we will research Nationalism after Education @ 0%?

 

[Duckweed]

I played the test to T106 and toy around the capital.

If we start mids in capital immediately, we could complete mids in 9 turns and be able to switch to Rep in the end of GA, we gain 11B( and soon 18B with OU) from capital, with a few more gold from higher civic fee. It seems to me that capital is better to work on those cottages rather than hiring scientists.

Constantinople hires 7 merchants and BS hires 5 merchants. Dye hard could also starts to hire specialists. Not a complicate GP plan as I see.

 

[Duckweed]

I hadn't considered Police State, but yes it would be useful and would pay back after only ten Cuirassiers. Will the timing with the Monastery, University, and Oxford work out?

If we want mids, then University has to be set back in capital. OU has to be after we switch out of CS since no city could complete university without whipping.

It would also be good to start the second Golden Age before we build the Taj, for the extra GA turn.

Constantinople is able to produce 1 GP and so does capital. Both of them and BS can continue on hiring specialists without CS, especially after whipping Markets. So it won't be a problem to run a 2nd GA soon.

I assume we will research Nationalism after Education @ 0%?

If we are waiting for OU, then it has to be quite a few turns after GA. OTOH, we could finish Nat ~10 turns earlier without waiting for the OU bonus. Shall we wait?

Edit: HC is building 2 wonders at the moment, so the mids plan might not work. Anyway, we don't lose anything even fail it.

 

[Doshin]

What about building the Mids elsewhere? We could, e.g., chop it in Aksum to finish on the turn it leaves revolt. Would there be enough time to still switch into Representation?

We enter a GA on T106, declare war on T109, (should) capture Aksum on T110...? This obviously loses the Bureaucracy bonus and costs GE in the capital.

OTOH, I have no problem mind banking gold until OU is in. Moreover, if the capital does not build Oxford immediately, University whips elsewhere can be less severe. How much do we have in your Pyramids test?

If we consider that we will need to self-tech (1) Nationalism, (2) Military Tradition, (3) Gunpowder, we need enough gold to research these before stomping the map. Ideally we would have 0G left on the turn that Gunpowder is in. If building the Mids in the capital delays Oxford which in turn delays our attack, we should reconsider the build order or placement of the Mids.

 

[Duckweed]

What about building the Mids elsewhere? We could, e.g., chop it in Aksum to finish on the turn it leaves revolt. Would there be enough time to still switch into Representation?

We enter a GA on T106, declare war on T109, (should) capture Aksum on T110...?

It won't work, Askum is size 11 at the moment and it needs 1 turn to pop the border as well.

OTOH, I have no problem mind banking gold until OU is in. Moreover, if the capital does not build Oxford immediately, University whips elsewhere can be less severe. How much do we have in your Pyramids test?

If we consider that we will need to self-tech (1) Nationalism, (2) Military Tradition, (3) Gunpowder, we need enough gold to research these before stomping the map. If we would still have a large amount of gold left due to delaying Oxford, we should reconsider.

I did not run the test all through, just play around T106. We could complete Edu on T108, and be able to produce ~200 gpt for the rest of GA plus loot from war, ~2500g after the GA, ~3000g till OU, which is enough to support ~15 turns of 100% slider. In any case, it won't be a problem to run 0% slider for a few turns.

 

[kossin]

Yes to complete HG, earlier pop boost is worth more than a few pop later.

Regarding Golden Ages, I haven't seen any resemblance of a plan. However, Bureaucracy alone is probably worth completing MoM now and we can plan GPP "on the fly".