SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[pomthom]

Oh and BTW, my band just released a farewell song (because we are splitting ) if you're interested in hearing what my voice sounds like

Elapsed - Good Night Junkee

 

[Doshin]

I had a go with working the Corn first. My save to T31 is attached.

A rough comparison with hammers first.

Overall

–2 commerce, but...
Current BPT is +3 more than the Copper first. With a Monument whip, this would be +1 BPT.
City #3 will be settled on same turn.
+1 Farm (on Sugar)
+1 Cottage (+1 is 1SE of Utrecht; +1 is 1NE of Amsterdam; –1 on Sugar)
–1 Quarry
Workers less well laid out (all 3 are in the north)

Amsterdam

+3F in Amsterdam
–6H in Amsterdam
Working an extra tile (due to +1 pop)

Utrecht

+4F in Utrecht
+2H in Utrecht
–2 Culture (this matters, since the earlier border pop means earlier access to the Rice)

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pomthom, could you add your T31 for comparison?

Two things I'd suggest from looking at your T33 save (IMHO, feel free to disagree with me ) are (1) Utrecht should whip a Monument before growing to size 3, perhaps even as soon as it grows to size 2 (I think DW did this) to allow an earlier border pop; (2) the Settler whipped on T32 in the capital is a little too early, unless we find a good site and 1–2 Workers are available to help set the city up. Consider 3–pop whipping a Library in the capital instead.

 

[Doshin]

P.S. I listened to your farewell song. So does your move to the UK mean that you are joining Bloc Party, or White Lies?

 

[pomthom]

My T31 is attached, I'll try to make a comparison.

P.S. I listened to your farewell song. So does your move to the UK mean that you are joining Bloc Party, or White Lies?

I will consider both their candidacies

 

[pomthom]

Comparison method ©Doshin, SGOTM18

@T31 Doshin v1 (Corn first) Duckweed v1 (Copper first) pomthom v1 (Corn first)
Capitole: Size 5 Size 4 Size 5
Bin: 14/30 Bin: 25/28 Bin: 15/30
Granary, Monument, 2 Axemen Granary, Monument, 2 Axemen Granary, 3 Axemen
Build: 8 (Axeman)
10 OF 16 OF

City 2: Size 2 Size 1 Size 3
Bin: 20/24 Bin: 16/22 Bin: 15/26
Granary Granary, Monument Granary
Build: 7 (Monument) Build: 5 (Library) Build: 6 (Monument)
2

City 3: Settled: T33 Settled: T33 Settled: T31
Gold: T34 Gold: T34 Gold: T33

Tech: 482 (Alpha T32) 484 (Alpha T32) A lot less, forgot to write it down (Alpha T32, at 1 close)

Improvements: 1 Sugar Farm, 2 GL Cottages 1 Sugar Cottage, 1 Quarry 1 Sugar Farm, 1 GLH Mine
(those we don't all have) Comparison VS Doshin v1 : -18 +8
+34 +2
+2 in City 2
+2 -? (can someone give me my beaker count?)
Better Worker distribution Less improvements, earlier City 3 (pays for itslef), earlier Gold

Comparison VS Duckweed v1 : +26
-30
-2 in City 2
-? (can someone give me my beaker count?)
Earlier City 3 (pays for itslef), earlier Gold

The comparison will be a bit more fair with my beaker count, but since my save also lands a T31 Alpha, I'd say it is stronger (nerver thought I would say that... but to be fair I spent almost an entire day on it ) - with a lot of room for improvement.


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Some thoughts:

I think I can improve my micro by (1) whipping a Monument in City 2 (as per Doshin's suggestion); (2) drop the GLH Mine for a better use of 5/6 worker turns.

I think a Monument is not needed in capitole before a 3rd Axeman, but can be built after the 3rd (I just ended up with 2 times 1 unhappy citizen that I whipped away). By freeing a bit of Worker turns from my GLH Mine I'm sure I can have a Worker ready for City 4 settled on T34 (Settler #3 = T33).


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Will try posting a new run today! I'm going out tonight and don't know how much time I'll be out...

 

[pomthom]

Utrecht

+4F in Utrecht
+2H in Utrecht
–2 Culture (this matters, since the earlier border pop means earlier access to the Rice)

DW's is Size 1, you have +15F

How do you end up with +2H since DW's run has a extra Monument?

 

[Folket]

DW's is Size 1, you have +15F

How do you end up with +2H since DW's run has a extra Monument?

There is an extra axeman. It is +2 hammers compared to Doshin. It is -30 hammers compared to Duckweed.

Why do we build a monument in our capital? Does not seem reasonable.

 

[pomthom]

There is an extra axeman. It is +2 hammers compared to Doshin. It is -30 hammers compared to Duckweed.

Wait, what are we talking about? (Doshin was comparing his run to DW's)


DW and Dosh have 2 Axemen each right? And I think they were produced by capitole

So DW has +1 Monument in City 2 (30 ) + 5 in new build (Library) VS Doshin's 7 in Monument = +28 for Duckweed in City 2 (but -15 which is normal because DW whipped the Monument)

Why do we build a monument in our capital? Does not seem reasonable.

To help with the whip anger. But I think we can do without until ~T34

 

[Duckweed]

I'll take a look into Corn 1st tonight. The reason why I produced a monument in capital is because it speedup the border pop to access the wheat, that's also a reason for choosing library.

One crazy thought -- is it good to whip a barrack to produce 3xp axe from scratch? Otherwise it's seems that it is going to take forever to get 4xp axe.

 

[pomthom]

I'll take a look into Corn 1st tonight. The reason why I produced a monument in capital is because it speedup the border pop to access the wheat, that's also a reason for choosing library.

Hadn't thought of that, interesting.

One crazy thought -- is it good to whip a barrack to produce 3xp axe from scratch? Otherwise it's seems that it is going to take forever to get 4xp axe.

That is actually one.... good... point
In all the runs I had, I managed to get to 3 XP once... will take a look (oh boy this would screw up mah' micro big time )

 

[pomthom]

Ok. I've just simulated (on paper) a micro that improves my run, will post in a few hours when I get home. It looks pretty good

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Looking into Barracks scenario now.

 

[soundjata]

Ok. I've just simulated (on paper) a micro that improves my run, will post in a few hours when I get home. It looks pretty good

--------------

Looking into Barracks scenario now.

all this while at work omg omg

 

[pomthom]

all this while at work omg omg

Tomorrow was supposed to be my last day, and my boss just told me he would just give it to me for free

I'm living my last instants at this desk...
(as well as enjoying CFC from work ... which is for the best!)

 

[pomthom]

Here's my second attemp, with comparison:

@T31 Doshin v1 Duckweed v1 pomthom v2
Capitole: Size 5 Size 4 Size 5
Bin: 14/30 Bin: 25/28 Bin: 19/30
Granary, Monument, 2 Axemen Granary, Monument, 2 Axemen Granary, 3 Axemen

10 -OF 16 -OF 3 -OF

City 2: Size 2 Size 1 Size 2
Bin: 20/24 Bin: 16/22 Bin: 14/24
Granary Granary, Monument Granary, Monument
Build: 7 (Monument) Build: 5 (Library) Build: 6 (Library)
2 1

City 3: Settled: T33 Settled: T33 Settled: T31
Gold: T34 Gold: T34 Gold: T33

Tech: 482 (Alpha T32) 484 (Alpha T32) 459 (Alpha T32 if we sacrifice 2 )

Improvements: 1 Sugar Farm, 2 GL Cottages 1 Sugar Cottage, 1 Quarry 1 Sugar Farm, 1 Quarry
(those we don't all have) Comparison VS Doshin v1 : -18 -1
+34 +27
+2 in City 2 +1 in City 2
+2 -23
Better Worker distribution Earlier City 3 (pays for itslef), earlier Gold

Comparison VS Duckweed v1 : +17
-5
-1 in City 2
-25
Earlier City 3 (pays for itslef), earlier Gold

One thing that still bothers me is that I have to compensate for being 1 beaker short by working a lake tile instead of the farmed Sugar for a turn...


I have to head out, peace!

 

[Duckweed]

Barrack scenario -- looks more promising than I have expected.

1st 3xp Axes on T24 and 2nd one on T30
T31 gold site
Could have Lib on T33 which allows 4th city be able to work on wheat from start.

Short of improvement due to the short of 1 worker, bur 2 3xp axes means free workers very soon.

@pomthom & doshin

If we don't want 3xp axes, then I agree with improving corn 1st. Otherwise, it has to be FP cottage before corn, or we lose the control of growth.

BTW, your comparisons are a bit unfair of cottages, which are long term effect improvement, therefore counting food and commerce in sugar city is not convincing. Working 1 turn earlier in FP cottage means 4C gain due to 1 turn faster to hamlet, village, and town. With the wet rice, 3F center, even cottage the riverside sugar, this city has 7F+, which is fast enough for growing. As I mentioned before, I consider this city a commerce city and I think you do as well. Moreover, we don't need this city to help the rexing. Since this game is more of science competition, I still prefer to cottage the sugar.

 

[soundjata]

+1 for cottaging the sugar.
Barracks > 2 axes > library in Capitol seems very good.

 

[Doshin]

barrack scenario -- looks more promising than i have expected.

Yes i like this idea a lot too. To add to your earlier arguments: it will be much quicker to heal from 1 battle (worth 1XP) than 3–4 (worth 1/2XP).

1st 3xp axes on t24 and 2nd one on t30
t31 gold site
could have lib on t33 which allows 4th city be able to work on wheat from start.

Short of improvement due to the short of 1 worker, bur 2 3xp axes means free workers very soon.:d

@pomthom & doshin

if we don't want 3xp axes, then i agree with improving corn 1st. Otherwise, it has to be fp cottage before corn, or we lose the control of growth.

Btw, your comparisons are a bit unfair of cottages, which are long term effect improvement, therefore counting food and commerce in sugar city is not convincing. Working 1 turn earlier in fp cottage means 4c gain due to 1 turn faster to hamlet, village, and town.

Sure, but if we compare your earlier FP cottage save with (my) corn save, i count (FP first) 21 turns of cottage growth in total vs. (Corn first) 25 turns of cottage growth. Corn first also has another Cottage available that will be worked from T32 onwards.

with the wet rice, 3f center, even cottage the riverside sugar, this city has 7f+, which is fast enough for growing. As i mentioned before, i consider this city a commerce city and i think you do as well. Moreover, we don't need this city to help the rexing. Since this game is more of science competition, i still prefer to cottage the sugar.

This is not a huge deal to me, but I prefer to farm the Sugar to speed the initial city set-up. We are, moreover, just two techs away from Calendar and I would expect us to gain more from the Sugar in a trade than a Hamlet/Village/Town will offer.

If we build a Farm ----> Plantation, should we turn this into a hammers city? There are 7 Grassland hills, and I cannot see any other suitable Heroic Epic sites. I agree that this SGOTM is ultimately a science race, but this seems a better use of the city to me.

.....

 

[Duckweed]

^ I agreed that Corn 1st was better in previous tests. However, in the new test, as I said, working on copper instead of corn at size 2 is better since happy cap is hard to control. Give it a try and you'll see.

HE in sugar city is a strong argument, I agree with farm the sugar then.

 

[soundjata]

@ Doshin, maybe long term we'll prefer to put a plantation on the sugar but I'd still favor the commerce from a cottage/hamlet for the early commerce it will provide. It might avoid working lake tiles and such tricks in order to shave one turn on a crucial tech.

Edit: Xpost with Duckweed.

 

[kossin]

BTW, great job pomthom for comparisons and opening posts. I haven't been following too much lately and it tremendously helps to find stuff quickly