SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

kossin · Feb 13, 2014

For early commerce we get the gold tile. For mid-long term commerce, more food typically yields more commerce.

If we farm up the city and mine the hills, build research also becomes an option since the city would normally not have had any production to speak of besides whip.

soundjata · Feb 13, 2014

@ Heroic Epic: The capitol is not a bad HE site either (copper, marble and 4 hills, multiplied by Bureaucracy at some point) Once taken, Constantinople could turn into our main GP farm?

Duckweed · Feb 13, 2014

kossin said:
For early commerce we get the gold tile. For mid-long term commerce, more food typically yields more commerce.

If we farm up the city and mine the hills, build research also becomes an option since the city would normally not have had any production to speak of besides whip.

If this city is founded lately, then farm>Cottage since cottages do not have enough time to grow, however, for such a early site, cottage is better. Building research does not get science multiplier.

For the same reason, our 4th city should be cottaged mainly.

soundjata said:
@ Heroic Epic: The capitol is not a bad HE site either (copper, marble and 4 hills, multiplied by Bureaucracy at some point) Once taken, Constantinople could turn into our main GP farm?

Capital needs OU and hence are not good to whip. If we could capture Constantinople early enough, then it might be a good idea to build TGL there, but I doubt we could.

soundjata · Feb 14, 2014

Duckweed said:
Capital needs OU and hence are not good to whip. If we could capture Constantinople early enough, then it might be a good idea to build TGL there, but I doubt we could.

I don't understand the use of OU in our capitol. Do you plan to cottage every green tile in its BFC or just multiply the science generated by scientist specialists?

Duckweed · Feb 14, 2014

soundjata said:
I don't understand the use of OU in our capitol. Do you plan to cottage every green tile in its BFC or just multiply the science generated by scientist specialists?

Yes, cottage them and they will become villages or towns when the OU is done. OU can easily add 100+ beakers to a well cottaged bureo capital, which pays its investment in a few turns.

We probably won't have Constitution or mids until late. Even we do, the yield of a village/town exceed representation scientists before biology farm. 3 grassland village/town yield 12~15C while 2 grassland farm + 1 scientist yield 6B + 3GPP. Plus that the value of GPP decreases in late stage due to the increment of GPPs needed for new one.

pomthom · Feb 14, 2014

EDIT: attached the correct save... :mischief:

I did a run very similar to Duckweed's Barracks run, but with Corn first and Farmed Sugar. I don't have to sacrifice food for T31 Alpha this time.

We're getting there

@T31 Duckweed RAX v1 pomthom RAX v1
Capitole: Size 6 Size 6
Bin: 15/32 :food:

Bin: 20/32 :food:

Granary, Monument, Barracks, 2 Axemen Granary, Monument, Barracks, 2 Axemen
Build: 7 :hammers:

(Library)
2 :hammers:

-OF

City 2: Size 1 Size 2
Bin: 16/22 :food:

Bin: 14/24 :food:

Granary, Monument Granary, Monument
Build: 5 :hammers:

(Archer) Build: 6 :hammers:

(Archer)
1 :culture:

1

City 3: Settled: T31 Settled: T31
Gold: T33 Gold: T33

Tech: 484 :science:

(Alpha T32) 462 :science:

(Alpha T32)

Improvements: 1 Sugar Cottage, 1 FP Hamlet 1 Sugar Farm, 1 FP Cottage (1 turn to Hamlet)
(those we don't all have) Comparison VS Duckweed RAX v1 : +14 :food:

-4

-22

1st Axe 1 turn sooner, 2nd Axe 1 turn later

With the Monument in capitole, Corn first is definitely superior. However we need to vote on either Cottage or Farm on the Sugar (trading 9 :food:

versus ~22 :science:

).

I also like the idea of turning City 2 in HE city.

Duckweed · Feb 14, 2014

Capital's happy cap is tense and it will have to slowly produce next settler, so I don't value food too high in capital. Also as I said already, I agree with farming the sugar for future HE site. By the way, some of extra beakers come form capital, not sugar cottage only.

The commerce has snowball effect as well, faster currency->earlier TGL->earlier Bureo->OU.

Edit: Your capital is growing into happiness and has not started lib yet on T31.

pomthom · Feb 14, 2014

Duckweed said:
Edit: Your capital is growing into happiness

Yours too

(your save is @T30)
We have the same whip anger

3-pop whipping the Library on T32 and hooking the Gold up on T33 makes the unhappiness problem a lot less of a problem. I am 100% sure of this, we won't have to slow build the next Settler.

---------------------

I just realized that by Cottaging the Sugar it might be possible to settle the Gold 1 turn sooner... that would definitely make up for the lost food!

Duckweed · Feb 14, 2014

Yes, but I started lib on T30 and can whip lib on T31. I don't want to whip further in capital since it needs to hire 2 scientists for academy in capital.

pomthom · Feb 14, 2014

Duckweed said:
Yes, but I started lib on T30 and can whip lib on T31. I don't want to whip further in capital since it needs to hire 2 scientists for academy in capital.

I agree but there isn't more whip anger nonetheless. A Library 1 turn later is a problem but I regrow to size 5 on the same turn as you (so no delay on Academy, just the +25% loss for 1 turn @size3...).

----------------------------

But anyway, as I thought, by cottaging the Sugar we can land a T30 Gold city + T32 hooked up Gold :cool:

I did not include the F/H/B produced by the 3rd city vS DW's run because the Worker micro is compatible to his.

So now I prefer cottaging the Sugar, but I still think Corn first is better because cap will regrow to size 5 on the same turn as Copper first after the Library whip. I also think the earlier 1st Axeman is nice.

@T31 Duckweed RAX v1 (Copper first, cottaged Sugar) pomthom RAX v1 (Corn first, farmed Sugar) pomthom RAX v2 (Corn first, cottaged Sugar)
Capitole: Size 6 Size 6 Size 6
Bin: 15/32 :food:

Bin: 20/32 :food:

Granary, Monument, Barracks, 2 Axemen Granary, Monument, Barracks, 2 Axemen Granary, Monument, Barracks, 2 Axemen
Build: 7 :hammers:

(Library)
2 :hammers:

-OF 2

-OF

City 2: Size 1 Size 2 Size 1
Bin: 16/22 :food:

Bin: 14/24 :food:

Bin: 16/22 :food:

Granary, Monument Granary, Monument Granary, Monument
Build: 5 :hammers:

(Archer) Build: 6 :hammers:

(Archer) Build: 5 :hammers:

(Archer)
1 :culture:

1

City 3: Settled: T31 Settled: T31 Size 1
Gold: T33 Gold: T33 Bin: 2/22 :food:

Build: 2

(Monument)
Gold next turn

Tech: 484 :science:

(Alpha T32) 462 :science:

(Alpha T32) 480 :science:

(Alpha T32)

Improvements: 1 Sugar Cottage, 1 FP Hamlet 1 Sugar Cottage, 1 FP Cottage (Haml. in 1 turn) 1 Sugar Cottage, 1 FP Hamlet
(those we don't all have) Comparison VS Duckweed RAX v1 : +14 :food:

+5

(not counting city 3)
-4 :hammers:

-5

(not counting city 3)
-22 :science:

-6

(not counting city 3)
1st Axe 1 turn sooner, 2nd Axe 1 turn later 1st Axe 1 turn sooner, 2nd Axe 1 turn later
Library 1 turn later (but quicker regrowth) Library 1 turn later (but quicker regrowth)

Comparison VS pomthom RAX v1 : -7 :food:

+1

+18

Gold 1 turn sooner

Duckweed · Feb 14, 2014

If your way lets capital regrow to size 5 1 turn faster, I'll give my vote on you.

1 turn earlier lib means 3~4 B from capital and possibly 1 turn earlier of academy. An alternative way is to start lib on T30 and whip on T31, which is going to delay your 2nd axe a couple turns further.

Put my vote of sugar improvement as neutral then.

Edit: Have not looked at your new save, but from your old save, it's better to let 2 workers arrive on the gold 1 turn before settlement. Improving gold immediately gives much more than connecting the site 1st. That says, if you settle gold on T30, then you should be able to work on improved gold on T31.

pomthom · Feb 15, 2014

Duckweed said:
If your way lets capital regrow to size 5 1 turn faster, I'll give my vote on you.

1 turn earlier lib means 3~4 B from capital and possibly 1 turn earlier of academy. An alternative way is to start lib on T30 and whip on T31, which is going to delay your 2nd axe a couple turns further.

Yep, with 15/32 in the bin, cap needs 2 turns to grow back to size 4 after Lib whip. With 27/32, cap regrows immediately to size 4 after whip. So luckily, in terms of beakers it's a simple 9 :science:

* 0.25 = 2 :science:

(rounded down) that we lose, ie Library at size 3.

Both our saves regrow to size 4 and size 5 on same turn so no turn lost on Academy.

Duckweed said:
Edit: Have not looked at your new save, but from your old save, it's better to let 2 workers arrive on the gold 1 turn before settlement. Improving gold immediately gives much more than connecting the site 1st. That says, if you settle gold on T30, then you should be able to work on improved gold on T31.

Oh you mean settle city 3 with 1 missing road to get Gold 1 turn sooner... smart!

But in that case I'll do something better: settle city on T29 with 2 missing roads and an improved Gold on T30 (I had 1 spare movement turn for the Settler). This should land Alpha on T31 :cool:

pomthom · Feb 15, 2014

OK you can call me daddy :lol:

(thanks for the tip Duckweed!)

@T31 pomthom RAX v3 (Corn first, cottaged Sugar)
Capitole: Size 6
Bin: 20/32 :food:

Granary, Monument, Barracks, 2 Axemen

2 :hammers:

-OF

City 2: Size 1
Bin: 16/22 :food:

Granary, Monument
Build: 5 :hammers:

(Archer)
1 :culture:

City 3: Size 1 (settled T29)
Bin: 2/22 :food:

Build: 6

(Monument)
Gold improved T30

Tech: Alpha T31

Improvements: 1 Sugar Cottage, 1 FP Hamlet

I'll try posting a PPP this evening

Duckweed · Feb 15, 2014

Some minor suggestions that you might already know.

Move the scout toward the gold site 1 tile a turn to be safe, can start to scout again when the settler arrive, maybe the northeast corner 1st?
Remember to focus EP on next AI you meet, EP on Asoka is totally a waste.
Warrior scouts west?

pomthom · Feb 15, 2014

PPP: turns 17 - 31, v0

Objectives of the turnset

Settle city 2 on non riverside Sugar on T18
Settle city 3 1N of Gold on T29, improve Gold on T30
Tech Alpha by T31
Build a Barracks in capitole to get out 3XP-ASS-Worker-stealing-Axes

Capitole micro (will be renamed "GO" or "Case Départ" :mischief:

)

Spoiler :

City 2 micro (will be named "Rue de Paradis" because it's a French monopoly street where I actually lived)

Spoiler :

City 3 micro (don't know what it will be called yet)

Spoiler :

Research

100% :science:

on Alpha. Sorted.

Unit movement

Scout: move 1 tile at a time to the Gold spot sector (the scout is crucial to fogbust the way for the Workers and Settler). Go to Gold and risk being suprised by a Bear/Lion on the other side of the hill (see spot B below) or play it safe and fogbust on flat land while waiting for the 1st Axe (see spot A below)?

Spoiler :

Warrior 1: (the Ambassador) this dude will meet us new people, because we are so friendly. He will move West trying to stay on protected ground (forest/hills)

Warrior 2: this dude will go back to capitole for we-fear-for-our-safety unhappiness

Axeman 1: (turn 23) will move up North to protect our settling party + farm an extra XP to then go bully some byzantine Workers. We might need him to actually fogbust the Gold spot, rather than the scout.

Dealing with AIs

Assign EPs on next dude we meet, reassess when/if we meet other dudes
Open Borders for diplo bonuses with new AIs?
DO NOT MISCLICK IF ASOKA ASKS FOR PEACE. I have half a mind to ask the SGOTM staff if there will be leniency if we misclick an illegal peace treaty. Misclicks are part of the game, but it seems a bit harsh if 1 of them leads to an immediate laurel ineligibility...

----------------------------

To check each turn

Resource deal possibilities with new AIs
Demographics
WW/GP
...?

Stopping conditions

Anything unexpected happens
A resource deal opportunity comes up
A Worker-farm opportunity comes up
Our Workers/Settler becomes in danger
...?

pomthom · Feb 15, 2014

Waiting for your comments!

Spoiler :

Duckweed · Feb 16, 2014

Don't have much time today before you go to sleep. Your achievements looks very good to me. Greenlight from me.

BTW, AIs will never ask for peace, they will only accept peace.

Folket · Feb 16, 2014

It does look good to me. Let us hope we meet someone.

We can also conclude the AI does not have the 200 extra gold.

Is Asoka here just to make us relax or something? Is this going to be the easiest SGOTM ever?

soundjata · Feb 16, 2014

Green light. Play ahead pomthom :goodjob:

pomthom · Feb 16, 2014

OK I can play tonight (anywhere between 9PM - 2AM Paris time), so if 1 or 2 of you can keep me company I would feel a bit safer :mischief:

SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

Deity

everything

Deity

everything

Deity

Drive & Reverb

Attachments

Deity

Drive & Reverb

Deity

Drive & Reverb

Attachments

Deity

Drive & Reverb

Drive & Reverb

Attachments

Deity

Drive & Reverb

Drive & Reverb

Deity

Deity

everything

Drive & Reverb

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