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SGOTM 19 - Phoenix Rising

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Feb 2, 2014.

  1. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Yep the Oracle was no real mistake, not sure why i mentioned that but can be forgotten ;)

    We did play great from our ideas, but now that i had a chance looking at Sid's save and seeing their Cap i must say that not planing such a Bur. Cap did cost us most of these turns.

    When we look at Horse, most cottages reached towns status.
    And we did start them rather late, so there was time after HAs.
    We also did bulb Edu quickly, so Ox would have been very possible if our Cap would have had more hammers.

    We got distracted by Nople and it's food, marble and so on.
    I do not mean questioning us, great and more important so much fun game,
    but that was an obvious mistake and ironically one that we would teach all newbies..plan your Bur. + Ox if you go CS & Edu early anyways ~~

    Instead we can take motivation from knowing that we might be able to close that turn gap next game, so i was thinking this overview can be important :)
    Settling gold city or not..that's distraction, we did well with beakers early.
     
  2. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Gold might have been worthwhile, but you really have to plan everything else around it. Sugar site would've needed to be settled 2nd to get into position to secure the gold, and that would have delayed horse city greatly or maybe even prevented us from getting it. That might have meant early axe rush like ASS used.

    Not everything fits in with a plan. On a whole they played at a level a little bit above us, but that does not mean that all of their decisions would have fit our own game. Lets not forget who we are comparing ourselves to either. Kossin and Duckweed have been anchors of a team that has won how many SGOTMs? They have some other very solid players supporting them too.
     
  3. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Regarding Oxford and other city infra, I think the problem in this game was to define if it is a teching game or not. Normally I'd build Oxford when heading to space but skip it if going for conquest. Here we aimed at Medicine, which is in between and then you have to ask yourself if it's worth it or not. I wouldn't have thought it's worth it as Med is still very much earlier than the space techs, but apparently Sid figured otherwise and made it work...

    TSR's cities look much more like ours, not much infra and no Oxford. But they were also heading only to Steam Power, which isn't as deep in the tech tree. And warring seems to be their bottle neck, not teching.

    Even if we had managed to cut a few turns of teching with Oxford, that could potentially have slowed down our conquest. Now the war and teching was timed quite nicely.
     
  4. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Seems like we could've shaved quite a few turns off of conquest had our teching and exec spread allowed for it. We sat outside of HCs last city for a good while, and we also stopped Cuir production in Sugar. Had we not done that the eastern barb city could have been taken earlier as well.

    I admit that with ~25-30T left to go in the game it looked like the conquest portion might be the limiting factor on our game, but that really accelerated late and it's clear that the tech portion is where we trailed.
     
  5. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    But that's what they still have ahead of us, they make plans for maxing 1 game part first then worry about other stuff.

    We could have built more Cuirs, and they already did sit around for several turns after HC. I still remember Gumbi saying ugh so many more AI cities..

    We talked about some of these worries so long until we believed them, and that will be our first goal of what we will not do anymore next game.
    We should always improve our own empire first, or think about expanding via war, then worry about how long killing AIs takes. They can be tricked and manipulated, beakers & co cannot and turns lost on reaching the research goals never come back ;)
     
  6. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Removed.
     
  7. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yep it's being able to judge these things. I think we should be comparing our strategy more to TSR who had less Infra and ask what did they do different?

    Was early COl and specialists the answer early on??? Beeline key techs and push deep into the tech tree?

    Were we right also to move our capital down south?? This delayed the sugar city quite a bit. Also put us off the gold city too. Could we of also of grabbed more cities near Toku sooner??? He had some nice land near him?
     
  8. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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  9. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    There's little point having an argument here about this. If the post offended you I will remove it.
     
  10. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    So looking forward to the next game all?? We can knock 601 pages out the park. :lol:
     
  11. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    If we can do that while being more organized, sure.
     
  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Yeah we should cut out a lot of the excess posts next game.

    I wonder if it is time for someone else to try team captain. I did very little last game in this role. Takes me away from any time management and worrying about who is next. My time may be limited next game.

    We may need 1-2 more turnset player. I can send some PM's nearer the time if this is helpful. What I lack right now is names. Who really loves micro and game play on forum?
     
  13. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    I can play some turns, just not sure how many. If we do things slightly differently it might help too.
     
  14. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    Looking at TSR save looks like they captured mids pretty early. This could of saved us quite a few turns. We had 8-9 cities they had 15 by 375bc. Rep and specialists would of had a huge impact on our save. We really were not far off TSR this game.

    Yep we should agree on best way to play before we start next game and have periods where we can all discuss long term strategy. I think this can be somewhat thought about at start too.

    For me our graphs give away far too much to the slower playing teams.
     
  15. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    I think we need no nominated "leader" tbh ;)
    It's pressure from something that only exists on paper, our games usually keep flowing quicker than most others.

    What we need are sticky posts for main parts like Economy plan, GP + GAs, AIs + Diplo + War.
    I would suggest keeping an updated sum up post at the start of our thread, where everybody knows how to find our current and most important game plans instead of looking thru pages and pages. I would volunteer doing that.

    I agree that slower playing teams have advantages, but too many delays can also ruin some game fun.
    Better "only" 3rd than playing too many waiting games.
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Well, team "leader" has always been nominal. It more like team organizer/secretary. Just making sure everything gets started okay. GB always done a solid job at that. We're all adults here - well, except maybe me - so there's no policing needed. We can police ourselves democratically.

    Linking sum-ups at the beginning of the thread is a good idea. Usually this is done after the game. However, it would be a great way for players to catch-up easily and not have to sift through the minutiae.

    I don't want to change the team dynamic too much, as I think we've had a good bit of fun with it. I'm a huge part of the thread spamming, so I can cut that out - just like to have a little fun.
     
  17. chessplaya

    chessplaya Prince

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    If we want to make it harder for other teams to guess what we are doing, maybe we shouldn't upload the save as often. In most teams, the turnset player writes a plan for the next 10-15 turns (more like 5 turns later in the game), with stopping conditions if anything strange happens, and only uploads at the end of the turnset or if a stopping condition is reached. This would also limit thread spam since a lot of it is "green to play one more turn" or something similar, and it would limit surprises from players who are busy when the turnset is being played. An example of this is when Nople and Cowtown were captured, and we stayed at war with Asoka and started a granary in Nople because Mylene and Izuul weren't present to suggest doing things differently. The downside is that it takes awhile longer to plan so many turns in advance, and micro details can easily get lost.
     
  18. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    I compared our teching progress to the Quacker's, and I must say their endgame looks mostly like black magic to me. Here's how the tech race progressed:

    975BC:
    They have a slight lead with Currency and CoL, we are one turn from Currency and have HBR.

    50BC:
    Our lead is HUGE! We have everything they've got plus MC, Drama, Gunpowder, Nationalism and Lib->MT.

    520BC:
    They are catching up, but we are still in the lead with Compass, Constitution and Democracy. They haven't used lib yet.

    820BC (15 turns later):
    They are done teching!! :eek: We are researching Corp and still lack SM, Bio and Med!

    Our 50BC tech tree actually looks very similar to their 520AD tech tree (only difference that matters is machinery), but from that tech situation they finished Medicine in 15 turns while it took us over 50 turns. That's just crazy. It appears that massing beakers early is not the strongest move in teching games if you have to do it at the expense of expansion and setting up your empire for heavy research later. Probably something to consider next game, if there is some target tech deeper down the tech tree that has to be reached.
     
  19. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    Why i made these earlier posts Elite, for improving we need to understand why it's not black magic but Golden Age timing, commerce tile raising and so on;)

    Our first game half was almost magic as well, but (unfort. for us) Civ snowballs and their much better 2nd half wins (clearly).
     
  20. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    When I get some time, I'll run the same beaker analysis as last time for the top finishers, maybe that can reveal some of the behind-the-veil tricks :spear:
     

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