SGOTM 19 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

I'm planning to play Sunday evening CET, that is in the early afternoon for you guys on the east coast of US.

I haven't made my mind up regarding GPP. Happy cap is fairly low and Amsterdam has many good tiles to work so hiring scientists there doesn't seem right. We can build libraries in Utrecht and/or in the clam/rice city. Clam/rice is best for specialists because it has a fair amount of food but little grassland for cottaging. Utrecht already produce prophet GPP so a GP is produced much faster here - either a GProphet or a GScientist. Utrecht is probably best since a prophet is OK for Buddhist shrine when we capture Asokas capital.

Hawk, if you're up for some easy but slightly boring testing we could use some stats on when techs become available. You could take my latest test ending at T52 and play on. What we want to know is when Alpha, Construction, HBR and Feudalism is likely to be discovered. Construction+HBR and Feudalism are techs that limit our attack window because they lead to War Elephants and longbows. Alpha date gives us an idea of when we can trade our way to IW and swords. If you like you could also test how Asoka responds to an attack with axes. Does he build chariots or archers? How many defenders are whipped.

 

[leif erikson]

What I did in one of the tests was to go into WB and give us Alphabet, since we were not planning on researching it, so I could see what techs become available over time. Only problem is that all the ai start nagging you to give it to them. I just said no...

 

[The-Hawk]

I ran three tests until Feudalism was completed by an AI. The first a little flawed because I did not meet Hyuana until later and he had some techs the others didn't have. I included it because the latter tech info is valid.

Here are the research times:

Alpha: HC had it on turn 52.
CoL: 56, 58, 55
HBR: 60, 58, 58
Monarchy: 70, 68, 71
Theology: ? (missed it), 69, 83
Calendar: 86. 84, 77
Aesthetics: 84. 104, 99
Construction: 90, 95, 89
Metal Casting: 94, not teched, 103
Currency: not teched, 108, 103
Feudalism: 98, 121, 112
Literature: not teched, 112, 102
Civil Service: not teched, 117, not teched

In one game, I built axes and spears, then planted stacks near Asoka cities. He built a bunch of archers until he had sufficient defense against my stacks, then went over to chariots.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Utrecht is probably best since a prophet is OK for Buddhist shrine when we capture Asokas capital" Is Buddhist shrine worth anything close to what a GS would bring at this time in the game? What would we likely be in a position to bulb with a GS, and what would we then be able to trade that new tech for? Utrecht is an excellent production city. Strongly urge a barracks there.

 

[Htadus]

"Utrecht is probably best since a prophet is OK for Buddhist shrine when we capture Asokas capital" Is Buddhist shrine worth anything close to what a GS would bring at this time in the game? What would we likely be in a position to bulb with a GS, and what would we then be able to trade that new tech for? Utrecht is an excellent production city. Strongly urge a barracks there.

Buddhist shrine is only good if we make a commitment to get a return from it in the form of spreding religion. But that is an investment we can not get into now and the return is not that great in a short game. However, we can always bulb Theo by trading or self learning the 3 minor religion techs. GS is preferable.

GS should bulb alpha at the moment but Philo is not too far off.

I think I will be ready to get involved by tomorrow.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Thanks for testing, Hawk. If we attack say ~T70 we are still quite sure that Asoka is nowhere near Construction or Feudalism. In our game there is (probably) no financial civs so tech rate could be slower than Hawks numbers indicate. Looking at the relative dates it seems like we can have Alpha and IW 6-8 turns before Asoka can have HBR. This should give us time to whip some swords and put in our stack.

It's almost certain that we get our first GP in Utrecht. Clam/rice can't catch up with the GPP accumulating from SH. So the question is if we should add some GSci points to the mix and get a very early GP and have at least some chance of a GSci. As you notice Utrecht has strong production and can build both the library and the barracks.

 

[Cactus Pete]

It's almost certain that we get our first GP in Utrecht. Clam/rice can't catch up with the GPP accumulating from SH. So the question is if we should add some GSci points to the mix and get a very early GP and have at least some chance of a GSci. As you notice Utrecht has strong production and can build both the library and the barracks.

But Utrecht is not going to be a GP city in the long run, so why spend 90 hammers to build the library there (a low commerce city that's not going to be a GP farm)) instead of in the clam/rice city where it will be of greater long-term value? Rather those 90 hammers go into, say, a worker and an axe.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Utrecht is not low commerce. It has lot's of grassland that can and should be cottaged. Certainly the overlapping grassland tiles that Amsterdam can later use when the cottages have matured. So it's going to be a hybrid city with some cottages and with +8 food there is no doubt that Utrecht will also hire specialists from time to time.

 

[The-Hawk]

It's almost certain that we get our first GP in Utrecht. Clam/rice can't catch up with the GPP accumulating from SH. So the question is if we should add some GSci points to the mix and get a very early GP and have at least some chance of a GSci. As you notice Utrecht has strong production and can build both the library and the barracks.

I think a GS has much more value. I think a Lib in Utrecht makes sense. Once the city has grown out, there is enough food to run scientists. We will be going deep into the tech tree, I think cottages and GS's are a must.

 

[leif erikson]

Agree with Hawk.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Playing...

 

[Frederiksberg]

I played a few turns but chose to pause due to new important developments. Here is the game in progress:

>> SAVE <<

Two things happened. First of all it turns out that Constantinopel is much stronger than anticipated with two 6 food tiles and one 5 food tile. Second, Asoka has built the Great Wall. I think we need to consider an attack as fast as possible to grab these goodies. At least we should check the feasibility of an attack before continuing with the current plan.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Updated the test game.

Test Game, T41

 

[Cactus Pete]

Concur that Asoka has bounty worth going after.

Some quick observations/comments:

In time, we need to get a road built through the marble to Constantinople.

Like to find out if there is copper (and later iron) under the fog east of Const or SW of Adrian.

Like to know what is defending in Const now.

Need to produce a wkbt within 10 turns in The Hague.

Wish we were only 16 turns from Construction but should go on with Currency.

First thoughts for a battle plan would be to axe rush Const, then send an axe and spear to pillage the horses in Thes, proceed to take Adrian, extort tech for peace (if we have Alpha), and delay attacking the hill city of Tess until end of peace and we have cats and WEs.

Infrastructure before units, as more units would slow already slow tech rate, but copper probably should be hooked by worker1 who is already there. Might want to produce a final warrior for capital before copper is hooked.

A granary on the marble would create a really helpful tile.

Not sure another city is worth it.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Updated the test game.

Test Game, T41

What's the deal with no Thes in your latest test?

 

[Frederiksberg]

It's there. Go take a look with the warrior. There are other errors though. Asoka is about done with a settler and that he wouldn't be in the game.

Tested a bit. It will take about 10 turns to build a stack of 7-8 axes and a spear. I guess that should be enough...

 

[Cactus Pete]

It's there. Go take a look with the warrior. There are other errors though. Asoka is about done with a settler and that he wouldn't be in the game.

Tested a bit. It will take about 10 turns to build a stack of 7-8 axes and a spear. I guess that should be enough...

That's fast. Did you get a road built too? How many of those will have some experience, and what was defending in Const at last look?

 

[Frederiksberg]

I saw one archer in each city and one additional archer close to Constantinopel. My expectation is that Constantinopel will be defended by at most 2 archers + 1 whipped. In the test game I built barracks first. Our CR axes had about 20% chance of victory so 2 axes per archer seems appropriate. Perhaps 6 axes+1 spear is sufficient? In the test game Asoka didn't whip defenders but I don't know why. In the test I believe I had a road extending 3 tiles W of the marble. If we decide to attack it would be nice to have a plan for worker stealing also.
During my set I saw 2 barb axes to the south and a spear to the north so GWall will be useful keeping these guys out. I believe I read somewhere that the barbs will start attacking cities when the average number of cities per Civ exceeds 3.
Did anyone notice that all AI have a "Best Friend"? This will surely change diplomacy. I guess that Asoka can't bribe his friend to attack us as long as he doesn't have Alpha, but he might get it before we do.

 

[The-Hawk]

Yes, I agree. This has become too nice a prize to ignore. We have a lot of open area to fogbust, GWall would be nice. I am a little nervous about culture defense since he founded Buddhism, but it looks like your test accounts for that as well.

I would not cut the axemen too fine. In my one test, he was whipping archers like crazy. I think you need to plan on 4. As he is in REX mode, we also need to keep a scout near Constantinople to watch for timing of his building archers to escort settlers.

 

[Htadus]

Good idea to stop the game to test a potential capital capture scenario Fred.

We should have about 10-15 turn window to do a pure axe rush since he will go into unit build mode once he has about 5-6 cities.

I would whip and chop axes for this attack.

A road will both save gold and time to attack that capital. Too bad that capital's culture will expand during this time giving him a chance to whip another archer.

3 axes to 1 will do but we will need to kill as high as 4 archers but most likely 3 which include the whipped archer. Do not forget a single spear.