SGOTM 19 - Xteam

[Frederiksberg]

Excellent news! We knew it was unlikely that Adrianople could be taken and managing to gift the Trojan city is probably much more important.

The spy screen is hard to interpret and has mislead me before so maybe we should try to do the CoL theft in the test game to get an idea of how many spy points we need. Before stealing we should spread Buddhism in Troy and have a spy stationary there for 5 turns. And we need to use the espionage slider to get enough points.

If we open borders with Asoka we will probably soon be forced to close them again because Asoka has many enemies.

Yes, in BtS HR is required for WE's. But we can restart war with cats and axes. No desperate need for WE's. In testing HR was researched early by the AI and I would prefer to wait for a trade.

Agree with leif that getting a couple of workers to the gold has high priority.

Haven't seen the save yet. I may have a little time this evening and will return with more comments if I manage to have a look.

 

[leif erikson]

Agree that HBR can wait, really would like to get Great Library secured in our favor.
edit - Calendar would be nice too...

Forgot about getting Buddhism in Troy, that should be done quickly.

Agree that we do not need to open borders with Asoka.

Would be nice to test the tech steal too. Those calculations always screw me up...

 

[Frederiksberg]

Perhaps we could open borders for a short while for the trade routes. Anyone know if open border agreements will give us negative diplo modifiers? If someone comes asking for us to cancel deals with Asoka I guess we better do this.

Spreading Buddhism to Troy can be done when we are ready to perform the tech steal. We can hope for auto spread or for Asoka to continue spreading.

 

[leif erikson]

Thought we took a diplo hit if we didn't maintain the open borders agreement for 10 turns?

Also, his worst enemies will not like that agreement?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Do not need to do this. We have Stonehenge, we get a free Monument with each new city we found or capture. Yes, thought about that after I hit the bed. Will put chop into granary.

Need to get the Gold Mine built asap. Yes, have two workers on hand.


Sounds good to me. Others in agreement?


We have to research Horseback Riding before we can build War Elephants.
Looks like that is our next tech objective... Yep, too much Vanilla. Don't think we can get iron soon enough for swords, but will keep an eye on that possibility.

With the founding of Sheep City, looks like we will have Troy pretty well protected from Barbs. They will be coming from the SW I expect.

Alex of the Arabs has Theology, wonder if he will build AP?

Be nice.

 

[Frederiksberg]

OK to go for Construction fast. We want to capture Thessalonica soon because it has stolen one of our big food tiles in Constantinoples fat cross.

In gold city I suggest we mine the gold first and then the rice tile. Chop Granary while waiting for expansion. In sheep city pasture sheep followed by chop of granary and then build cottage on floodplain. Do we need more workers? We need more cottages in Amsterdam and Utrecht. Wheat and pig should be connected soon to avoid health problems. Suggest that we whip a worker in Constantinople. We only have 7 workers for 6 cities and Constantinople is working several unimproved tiles. And try to avoid unit supply by moving as many units as possible inside our borders. (Settling two cities will help a lot).

Don't send the spear to explore north. He is dead should a barb axe appear. Use the archer instead.

Btw. the horse tile is not worth moving for. Let's settle Sheep City as planned. We will get our horses from Thessalonica.

Don't send the spy to Troy yet. He could be exposed and we are at least 15 turns from stealing.

 

[Cactus Pete]

OK to go for Construction fast. We want to capture Thessalonica soon because it has stolen one of our big food tiles in Constantinoples fat cross. So, Thes first? Think, by pillaging the roads they are building, that I can keep workers available for snatching west of Const until we have cats and are ready to attack. This will also keep chariots from being built there, but snatch would keep some units from getting to, say, Thes ASAP.

In gold city I suggest we mine the gold first and then the rice tile. Concur Chop Granary while waiting for expansion. In sheep city pasture sheep followed by chop of granary and then build cottage on floodplain. Okay. Do we need more workers? Not badly. We need more cottages in Amsterdam and Utrecht. The unimproved silk forests are not bad tiles and we have a cottage and a lake tile that are unused in Am, but a cottage 1N of U that either could use will be given some priority. Wheat and pig should be connected soon to avoid health problems. U is only city close to having health issues and roading wheat (one turn left on road) will take care of that for a while. Suggest that we whip a worker in Constantinople. Disagree here. There are 3 powerful tiles in Const that will be available one turn after we come out of anarchy, and we need to build a barracks there. What about putting U overflow into a worker, switching back to commerce, and then whipping worker there when city grows? We only have 7 workers for 6 cities and Constantinople is working several unimproved tiles. And try to avoid unit supply by moving as many units as possible inside our borders. Those roving units have been providing intel and (hopefully) a CRIII axe next turn), but will minimize this.(Settling two cities will help a lot).

Don't send the spear to explore north. He is dead should a barb axe appear. Use the archer instead. Concur (archer's been healing)

Btw. the horse tile is not worth moving for. Let's settle Sheep City as planned. We will get our horses from Thessalonica. Okay. Any contrary views?

Don't send the spy to Troy yet. He could be exposed and we are at least 15 turns from stealing.

Wasn't going to. He will make a nice scout into the fog until needed. (In time, we need to find out where all the resources are.)

 

[Frederiksberg]

Silk tiles are only OK because we are building ToA with marble bonus. Otherwise they are mediocre and about equal to unimproved river grassland (bcs 2 hammers = 1 food). The big downside of not working cottages is that we will never get any villages or towns unless we get started early. Economy should still be our main focus. When we settle our two new cities we will be struggling to keep the science slider high.

Ivory tile is OK but nothing great. Plains hill mine is actually a below average tile and no better than unimproved grassland (4 hammers = 2 food). Pig tile is of course extremely good and I forgot we get it next turn. Whipping worker in Const still seems good to me. We can whip there without stacking red faces and the substantial overflow can go into barracks. Regrowth would happen in about 4 turns. Const can't be allowed to get big because we can expect many red faces there when we redeclare.

I guess we should be going after Thessalonica first. Not even sure we can afford to capture a city as distant as Asokas iron city. Maybe some testing will be necessary to balance economy and expansion. Hopefully we will soon be able to steal CoL but stealing will require gold to increase the espionage slider.

Did a quick test. Stealing CoL cost me 170 spy points in the test game:

 

[Cactus Pete]

Silk tiles are only OK because we are building ToA with marble bonus. Otherwise they are mediocre and about equal to unimproved river grassland (bcs 2 hammers = 1 food). But the short-term need is to produce Research and then cats, and they're good for that. The big downside of not working cottages is that we will never get any villages or towns unless we get started early. Economy should still be our main focus. When we settle our two new cities we will be struggling to keep the science slider high. Understood. Will try to have some additional cottages built by time cats are done (and then to capture two of Asoka's workers to further the effort as red faces fade).

Ivory tile is OK but nothing great. Plains hill mine is actually a below average tile and no better than unimproved grassland (4 hammers = 2 food). Not for building commerce for Construction, and when that's done we will want to build several cats there. Pig tile is of course extremely good and I forgot we get it next turn. Whipping worker in Const still seems good to me. We can whip there without stacking red faces and the substantial overflow can go into barracks. Going to chop barracks. Prefer to save red faces for several cats fast. Regrowth would happen in about 4 turns. Const can't be allowed to get big because we can expect many red faces there when we redeclare.

I guess we should be going after Thessalonica first. Not even sure we can afford to capture a city as distant as Asokas iron city. Maybe some testing will be necessary to balance economy and expansion. Let's see how the first part of the war goes. Hopefully we will soon be able to steal CoL but stealing will require gold to increase the espionage slider. Captured city gold.

Did a quick test. Stealing CoL cost me 170 spy points in the test game:

I think that's good.

Playing soon. After Construction, will switch to Aesthetics but put slider on 0%, unless I read different advice when I check back here.

 

[leif erikson]

A bit concerned about skipping the horses down south, but can live with it.

Aesthetics next sounds good to me.

Good luck and happy hunting.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Interim Report -- as planned

T65 -- Switch civics and builds

IBT -- Barb longbow(?!) shows near Sheep City

T66 -- Establish 2 new cities with their considerable maintenance costs; pillage one road to Antioch; note we are now +2 with H, thanks to civics change

IBT -- Barb warrior moves onto Adrian cow pasture

T67 -- Gold mine made operational, reducing maintenance costs; pillage other road

IBT -- Barb warrior killed

T68 -- Continue to execute plan

RL intervenes. Should be back in an hour or so. Advice welcome. Here is interim save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=371977&stc=1&d=1394765604

 

[Cactus Pete]

Playing again . . .

 

[Cactus Pete]

Latest Interim Report -- Proceeding as planned, but have an opportunity

T69 --Note settler in Adrian

IBT -- Construction>Aesth; H completes T of A

T70 -- Start building cats

IBT -- 168 gold from T o A

T71 -- Note both worker and settler now in Adrian

IBT -- Asoka moves 3 workers and a settler (not at all clear where he's heading) into vulnerable positions

T72 -- Make some necessary moves, but pause to let team consider wisdom of declaring now

Consider and advise: Can gain 4 workers (if too many, can send one or two on needed scouting into the fog until barbs kill them off, though anticipated captured cities will need some work), but will be attacking before all the needed cats are built

Would probably be able to play some more in about ten hours, but won't unless receive considerable feedback. Will wait for team to declare ready for me to continue, or I can save in Central and let next player take over.

Interim save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=371982&stc=1&d=1394775928

 

[Frederiksberg]

Sounds very tempting to capture all those workers (4 x 60 hammers!). It's definitely not too many. Haven't seen the save yet and can't do so before I come home from work (around 18.00 CET, that's 1 pm EST). I guess we need to consider how vulnerable we are to counterattack and judge if Napoleon can be bribed to join. Hope that the spy isn't too far from Troy. A CoL steal could be in the cards very soon. How many turns do we need to get 170 spy points on Huayna with 100% spy slider

 

[leif erikson]

Those 4 workers look

Think we should go for it and take the Workers.

At 100%, we gain 68 spy points per turn, we have 60, so 2-turns at 100% will be more than enough. That costs us 106 Gold (53/turn).

Do not know how many Cats we need to attack Thessalonica, but looks like we can have 4-Cats there in 4-turns, with a whip in Constantinople?

Looks as though Nappy and Asoka have the same techs. As long as Asoka doesn't discover much new in the near term, hope Nappy will mind his own business. Nappy also has some distance to travel, we should have enough Cats to be ready for him? Is our goal to remove Asoka from the game?

Nice work CP.

edit - am I missing the Spy? He must be quite stealthy as I cannot find him???

 

[Frederiksberg]

If the spy has strayed far we need to build another. And a missionary. Spy needs 5 turns stationary in Troy before attempting the steal. Sounds like 1 turn @ 100% and maybe a turn @ 50% spy slider will do the trick. Quite a cheap price for CoL I think.
We should consider chopping a courthouse in Constantinople soon so that we can run a spy. A GSpy worth 4000 spy points would enable us to steal techs of a total value of ~15000 beakers from Huyana.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Those 4 workers look Indeed.

Think we should go for it and take the Workers. Concur and will do unless I read otherwise here within the next 10 hours, if you want me to continue playjng.

At 100%, we gain 68 spy points per turn, we have 60, so 2-turns at 100% will be more than enough. That costs us 106 Gold (53/turn).

Do not know how many Cats we need to attack Thessalonica, but looks like we can have 4-Cats there in 4-turns, with a whip in Constantinople? Think that 4 will be enough, but need to keep building them anyway for other cities.

Is our goal to remove Asoka from the game? Good question, and do we want to keep Adrian and the presumed barb city to the north, but raze Antioch?

edit - am I missing the Spy? He must be quite stealthy as I cannot find him???

Have not completed spy -- other priorities, but he will complete turn after whipping axe in H.

Do I understand that a missionary for TROY is a very high priority?

How important is courthouse in Const relative to additional units and a library?

 

[leif erikson]

Have not completed spy -- other priorities, but he will complete turn after whipping axe in H.

Good, now I know I am not entirely

Do I understand that a missionary for TROY is a very high priority?

Do not think so, just needs to be done before the Spy starts hanging out in Troy to prepare for the CoL's steal.
The religion reduces the cost of stealing the tech.

How important is courthouse in Const relative to additional units and a library?

Would say that units and Library take priority.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Had a look at the game.

I think we can go ahead and attack now. Actually it's 5 workers we get, because the captured settler will become a worker also. When we capture the worker in Thessalonicas fat cross I suggest we do it with a spear and move two cats along for bombarding. Later we can bring more units so that the city can be captured. Be sure that we have no more than 2-3 units outside Thessalonica before the whole stack is there. A medium size stack adjacent to a city can cause the AI to do a lot of whipping and we don't want that. I see that Sheep City is unguarded. I think we have to fix this fast because a chariot could show up.
We can bring 11 units to Thessalonica fairly fast even though we loose a little time worker stealing. My guess is that this is enough and that we need only a few more units in order to also take Adrianople. I suggest we play this war a bit slow and don't risk crashing the economy due to unit cost
I think think first priority in Constantinople is units. Then again, we might not want to take all Asokas cities so we have to judge how many units are needed to take Thessalonica and Adrianople. Second priority is Courthouse. To reduce maintenance but also to grow a great spy. Like I said, he will be worth ~15000 beakers in stolen techs. In comparison a GSci is only worth 1500-1700 beakers. That's only 1/10th of the Spy.

If we are unlucky we loose the worker outside gold. He is unfortunately placed in range of a chariot attack. But getting 5 is ample compensation. And the spear can't safely go any further away from Gold City. Perhaps he should retreat.

We have:

6 axes
3 spears
3 cats

and are producing 2 cats and an axe. I think we need to change build in Utrect to spear and get him to Sheep ASAP. If we whip the cat in Constantinople we can probably build another unit shortly after. Perhaps whip another cat in Utrecht when the archer is done and produce the spy with the overflow. After that stop building military at least until we know where we stand i.e. know the outcome of the battle of Thessalonica.

Utrecht needs MM now that the forest is gone. Grassland is better than the hill. Const can work grassland forest instead of grassland. And our captured workers should help cottaging and mining so that we can turn around our economy. Perhaps also use some to chop Courthouse in Constantinople and granary in Sheep. We need a missionary for Troy and we need to get the spy there so he can wait for 5 turns before stealing. Grow our cities for a while - probably building wealth.

 

[Frederiksberg]

I think we should hold back chopping in Constantinople. We might want to build Courthouse, Library and Nat. Epic there to speed up the GSpy if the timing is all right. Consider hiring scientists in Hague - at least until we have more mines/cottages up there.