Appreciate the feedback. Will check back here and then play in about 7 hours unless team feels need for more discussion.
SGOTM 19 - Xteam
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Appreciate the feedback. Will check back here and then play in about 7 hours unless team feels need for more discussion.
Htadus
A and L's dad
I think it makes sense to capture the workers and take Asoka's current capital along with anything else.
However, the AI we need to reduce and slow down is Tokugava. It would be nice to take his cities before he get his protective LB. Too bad we do not have HBR for WE. I rarely tech HBR, but in this game I think it would be an asset.
However, the AI we need to reduce and slow down is Tokugava. It would be nice to take his cities before he get his protective LB. Too bad we do not have HBR for WE. I rarely tech HBR, but in this game I think it would be an asset.
Frederiksberg
Deity
It's 4 with settler
No, it's 5. They are 1S of Antioch, 3W1S of Const. 2W2S of Const (worker+settler) and 2N of Const.
Not likely. No chariot has been built or was able to be built in Adrian (been monitoring city), but I will put 5 hammers into a spear so I can whip one if necessary.
What about the chariot you saw when the attack on Adrianople was abandoned? Must be out there somewhere I guess?
Not clear what you are thinking here, as a cat is already being built in U. It will come out in 2 turns, but -- depending on what the need for units looks like after see inside Thes and barb cities -- may whip cat in U for one pop and put overflow into missionary
I suggested to change build to archer and then 2 pop whip cat with overflow to spy. Spy must be built before missionary because he needs to be 5 turns in Troy before steal. Try to avoid one pop whips. It should be very easy with cats.
Yes, but can't get cat out in 2 turns without using hill.
Yes, I see that now.
Not if we want to whip a cat for 2 pop next turn
Don't let the city screen fool you. A cat is 50 hammers so you can put up to 19 hammers into it first turn and still 2 pop whip next turn. What the game is telling you is influenced by the penalty for whipping with no prior hammers in the cat.
The main targets for this war are Thessalonica and Adrianople. The two other cities are small and the iron city is particularly crappy because of cultural pressure from Toku. We have to be careful with unit cost - it's 14 gpt or 22% of our total income and will increase even further with the captured workers. Capture gold will barely cover these expenses. So let's not build more units than we need. In particular if the cities we stand to conquer are small and high maintenance.
No, it's 5. They are 1S of Antioch, 3W1S of Const. 2W2S of Const (worker+settler) and 2N of Const.
Not likely. No chariot has been built or was able to be built in Adrian (been monitoring city), but I will put 5 hammers into a spear so I can whip one if necessary.
What about the chariot you saw when the attack on Adrianople was abandoned? Must be out there somewhere I guess?
Not clear what you are thinking here, as a cat is already being built in U. It will come out in 2 turns, but -- depending on what the need for units looks like after see inside Thes and barb cities -- may whip cat in U for one pop and put overflow into missionary
I suggested to change build to archer and then 2 pop whip cat with overflow to spy. Spy must be built before missionary because he needs to be 5 turns in Troy before steal. Try to avoid one pop whips. It should be very easy with cats.
Yes, but can't get cat out in 2 turns without using hill.
Yes, I see that now.
Not if we want to whip a cat for 2 pop next turn
Don't let the city screen fool you. A cat is 50 hammers so you can put up to 19 hammers into it first turn and still 2 pop whip next turn. What the game is telling you is influenced by the penalty for whipping with no prior hammers in the cat.
The main targets for this war are Thessalonica and Adrianople. The two other cities are small and the iron city is particularly crappy because of cultural pressure from Toku. We have to be careful with unit cost - it's 14 gpt or 22% of our total income and will increase even further with the captured workers. Capture gold will barely cover these expenses. So let's not build more units than we need. In particular if the cities we stand to conquer are small and high maintenance.
Frederiksberg
Deity
Maybe I should clarify what need to be done to do the steal:
It's very important that we keep open borders with Huayna. Trade routes with Troy gives us a bonus when stealing.
If we get the GSpy we can probably be more aggressive with our warfare because we can keep up in tech by stealing. 15000 beakers is quite a few techs and add to that all the spy points we are going to get from Courthouses.
- Build spy and send him to Troy
- Leave spy in Troy for 5 turns to get full bonus.
- Build missionary and spread Buddhism in Troy before steal.
- When spy has been stationary for 3 turns turn the espionage slider to 100% for one turn and maybe 10-20% the following. Target is 170 spy points.
- STEAL!
It's very important that we keep open borders with Huayna. Trade routes with Troy gives us a bonus when stealing.
If we get the GSpy we can probably be more aggressive with our warfare because we can keep up in tech by stealing. 15000 beakers is quite a few techs and add to that all the spy points we are going to get from Courthouses.
We can raze cities in this game can't we, and won't it be helpful to eliminate Asoka (and the associated unhappiness in his former cities) while it's relatively easy?
Isn't a GSpy many turns off and a crap shoot if we run other specialists?
Really, it is 4. I did the same thing I think you are doing.
Please look at our units and the distances they must travel and I think you will see it is only possible to take 4 Workers. If you see a way to take 5, better post it because I missed it too.
Believe this is correct, and I agree.
Htadus is also right, need to keep an eye on Toku too, while he is easier to take.
Frederiksberg
Deity
No, 5 workers. One axe captures both the worker and settler. Other axe captures worker, warrior captures worker and spear+cats capture worker.
Building additional units just to raze a city strikes me as a bad deal compared to waiting until we can keep the city. Asoka will stay forever in expansion mode and his cities will be easy to capture also later. We need to build a lot of stuff in Constantinople so lets use our hammers for that. Right now break even tech slider is at 20%. Getting first to Literature will be difficult unless we take measures to bring down unit cost and city maintenance. Remember that this is a game where we have to go fairly deep (and fast!) in the tech tree.
Getting the GSpy is challenging. I think it can be done if we build Courthouse and hire a spy specialist. Next we build Library and chop Nat. Epic to double the speed. GSpy probably need to be our 2nd GPerson. But can we afford to say no to 15000 beakers in stolen techs? Ten times the value of a GScientist.
Building additional units just to raze a city strikes me as a bad deal compared to waiting until we can keep the city. Asoka will stay forever in expansion mode and his cities will be easy to capture also later. We need to build a lot of stuff in Constantinople so lets use our hammers for that. Right now break even tech slider is at 20%. Getting first to Literature will be difficult unless we take measures to bring down unit cost and city maintenance. Remember that this is a game where we have to go fairly deep (and fast!) in the tech tree.
Getting the GSpy is challenging. I think it can be done if we build Courthouse and hire a spy specialist. Next we build Library and chop Nat. Epic to double the speed. GSpy probably need to be our 2nd GPerson. But can we afford to say no to 15000 beakers in stolen techs? Ten times the value of a GScientist.
Missed two Axes on the hill west of Constantinople.We will also need a great person for a corporation, Great Engineer?
Capturing one is an iffy affair.
Then tentative plan is to take two cities and pause, probably to turn game over to next in line.
Playing in about 5 hours unless concerns raised.
Playing in about 5 hours unless concerns raised.
Frederiksberg
Deity
Yes, please play on! And thanks for putting much effort into keeping this game alive! 
Agree, please continue. 
Good luck and happy hunting.
Good luck and happy hunting.
Late start, but playing now . . .
Interim Report -- Take Thes, missionary and spy approaching TROY
T72 -- DOW and capture 5 workers; note only 2 archers in Thes
IBT -- Asoka wants peace already
T73 -- Note that Nicaea (west of Gold City) has 2 archers; note most trade routes inactive; advance on Thes
IBT -- Chariot appears in Thes; archer now in TROY
T74 -- Note a third archer now in both Nic and Adrian; missionary out; advance on Thes
IBT -- A second chariot appears in Thes
T75 -- Advance and bombard Thes; move some workers east
IBT -- One of the archers abandons Thes, probably headed toward Nic
T76 -- Take Thes with loss of 2 cats (it has granary); spy out
Sorry, have to pause here due to late start. Left a few units unmoved. Can probably play through taking Adrian in about 12 hours.
For Discussion:
Could use advice on what to do about Nic and Antioch -- a bit concerned about ivory and possible WEs there, though Asoka doesn't even have Math yet.
Should I send out a spear to look for Asoka's missing city?
Also, not sure about best builds in several cities at this point.
Spy will reach TROY next turn. Does next turn count as one of the five, or does he have to begin the turn there to count?
Feedback would be appreciated.
Interim save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=372026&stc=1&d=1394863310
T72 -- DOW and capture 5 workers; note only 2 archers in Thes
IBT -- Asoka wants peace already
T73 -- Note that Nicaea (west of Gold City) has 2 archers; note most trade routes inactive; advance on Thes
IBT -- Chariot appears in Thes; archer now in TROY
T74 -- Note a third archer now in both Nic and Adrian; missionary out; advance on Thes
IBT -- A second chariot appears in Thes
T75 -- Advance and bombard Thes; move some workers east
IBT -- One of the archers abandons Thes, probably headed toward Nic
T76 -- Take Thes with loss of 2 cats (it has granary); spy out
Sorry, have to pause here due to late start. Left a few units unmoved. Can probably play through taking Adrian in about 12 hours.
For Discussion:
Could use advice on what to do about Nic and Antioch -- a bit concerned about ivory and possible WEs there, though Asoka doesn't even have Math yet.
Should I send out a spear to look for Asoka's missing city?
Also, not sure about best builds in several cities at this point.
Spy will reach TROY next turn. Does next turn count as one of the five, or does he have to begin the turn there to count?
Feedback would be appreciated.
Interim save: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=372026&stc=1&d=1394863310
No problem, sounds good.
Think we should raze Antioch.
Nicaea is more of a problem. It has +11 food resources and grass tiles we can cottage. Might be good for a mini-GP farm? Would be nice to have CoL's, but maybe soon.
I tried using the global view and checking for culture, but no clues on its whereabouts. We need to find it, but also need units to defend Gold City (an Axe?) as there are two Barb Cities to the NE.
Do you need any more units?
Where are we planning to use the Settler from Utrecht?
Could build a Monastery in Amsterdam?
May have to set some other cities to Wealth, we're really close on the economy.
No, the Spy must remain unmoved for the turn to count.
edit - As soon as we have enough Spy points, think we should restart research using the capture gold to get to Literature and Great Library.
Looking good.
Frederiksberg
Deity
Here's my game plan:
Long term strategy
Adopt spy economy and leverage this by expanding aggressively. We tech to Literature and then set science slider to 0% for a longer period. A GSpy is grown in Constantinople ~T96 and all techs are coming from stealing, bulbing and trade. When Literature is reached ~T86 we start building military units again (and settlers if needed) and go after Toku. Asoka can be finished off when convenient. CoL is stolen T82 according to plan and Courthouses must also be built in addition to units. When we judge expansion should end we turn around the economy and tech ahead of the AI. So spy economy is not for the whole game only a period in the middle.
Short term war
I suggest we attack Nicaea first. Move one cat to bombard Adrianople and the rest go to capture Nicaea. The Spear in Gold City can join this attack if the archers falls back to defend the city. Next capture Adrianople. Let's ignore Antioch and the unknown city for now and decide later how they are best handled. Most likely we can do this with the units we have.
Plan for Constantinople
The long term strategy hinges on getting a GSpy fast in Constantinople. CoL is stolen T82 and we can build Courthouse in two turns using 2 chops and a 2-pop whip. Library can be 2 pop whipped 2-3 turns from now. Nat. Epic needs 4 chops to be built in one turn at ~T86 when we have Literature. So we need to pre-chop. 6 forest in Constantinople.
Builds in other cities To reach Literature T86 we need to build wealth in several cities. But first we must build a backup spy. Stealing has ~90% success probability so a backup is required to avoid a considerable delay. I suggest we build a 2nd spy ASAP and hasten him to Troy. If happines limit is reached in cities building wealth whipping a missionary for Sheep and Gold can be considered. I believe we can set Science slider to 100% now. Please monitor that we have gold left to do one turn of 100% spy slider and maybe one at 10% spy slider at turns 80 and 81. We need between 170 and 190 spy points.
Note that we are earning only 73 gpt and have expenses of 70 gpt (20 gpt unit cost, 4 gpt unit supply,24 gpt maintenance, 22 gpt civics). There is really no room at all for more units if we are to get Literature fast.
Long term strategy
Adopt spy economy and leverage this by expanding aggressively. We tech to Literature and then set science slider to 0% for a longer period. A GSpy is grown in Constantinople ~T96 and all techs are coming from stealing, bulbing and trade. When Literature is reached ~T86 we start building military units again (and settlers if needed) and go after Toku. Asoka can be finished off when convenient. CoL is stolen T82 according to plan and Courthouses must also be built in addition to units. When we judge expansion should end we turn around the economy and tech ahead of the AI. So spy economy is not for the whole game only a period in the middle.
Short term war
I suggest we attack Nicaea first. Move one cat to bombard Adrianople and the rest go to capture Nicaea. The Spear in Gold City can join this attack if the archers falls back to defend the city. Next capture Adrianople. Let's ignore Antioch and the unknown city for now and decide later how they are best handled. Most likely we can do this with the units we have.
Plan for Constantinople
The long term strategy hinges on getting a GSpy fast in Constantinople. CoL is stolen T82 and we can build Courthouse in two turns using 2 chops and a 2-pop whip. Library can be 2 pop whipped 2-3 turns from now. Nat. Epic needs 4 chops to be built in one turn at ~T86 when we have Literature. So we need to pre-chop. 6 forest in Constantinople.
Builds in other cities To reach Literature T86 we need to build wealth in several cities. But first we must build a backup spy. Stealing has ~90% success probability so a backup is required to avoid a considerable delay. I suggest we build a 2nd spy ASAP and hasten him to Troy. If happines limit is reached in cities building wealth whipping a missionary for Sheep and Gold can be considered. I believe we can set Science slider to 100% now. Please monitor that we have gold left to do one turn of 100% spy slider and maybe one at 10% spy slider at turns 80 and 81. We need between 170 and 190 spy points.
Note that we are earning only 73 gpt and have expenses of 70 gpt (20 gpt unit cost, 4 gpt unit supply,24 gpt maintenance, 22 gpt civics). There is really no room at all for more units if we are to get Literature fast.
Sounds like an interesting plan.
Is the Great Spy for planting in H's city to give us the Spy points needed to steal as many techs as possible?
Where does Great Library go, capital?
Still need to cottage as much as possible? Also, need to get some of the hills mined, especially around Hague, to build units or is the plan to whip. Excessive whipping will cause us to be unable to work as many cottages, so it seems we will need some additional production (hammers) as we move ahead?
Is the Great Spy for planting in H's city to give us the Spy points needed to steal as many techs as possible?
Where does Great Library go, capital?
Still need to cottage as much as possible? Also, need to get some of the hills mined, especially around Hague, to build units or is the plan to whip. Excessive whipping will cause us to be unable to work as many cottages, so it seems we will need some additional production (hammers) as we move ahead?
Frederiksberg
Deity
GSpy can infiltrate Troy and provide 4000 spy points. Enough to steal 10+ techs.
GLib should ideally go to Constantinople when the GSpy is born. We have to hold on to Literature and not trade it.
Yes, we need cottages and mines on grassland hills. Plains hill mines should have low priority. In the longer perspective we want to turn around the economy and tech faster than the AI. Spy Economy is only there to help fast expansion for a while.
GLib should ideally go to Constantinople when the GSpy is born. We have to hold on to Literature and not trade it.
Yes, we need cottages and mines on grassland hills. Plains hill mines should have low priority. In the longer perspective we want to turn around the economy and tech faster than the AI. Spy Economy is only there to help fast expansion for a while.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
In all my years playing, I don't think I've ever grabbed 5 workers on a DOW turn. Reminds me of an infomercial on an obscure cable TV channel:"Today is WORKER-MANIA. Two workers for only $9.99. But wait, if you order in the next 10 minutes, we will double your order to FOUR workers! Four for the price of two! Not good enough? Then we will throw in a 5th worker for FREE!!!"
Seriously, that is a massive catch. Asoka building GW and a pile of workers has us off to a fast start.
CP said:
Unfortunately, without access to the save, I can't help much here.
The-Hawk
Old Original Geezer
My last advice without seeing the save... time to switch from worker-mania to cottage-mania.
Espionage might be able to give us a leap ahead, but we still have a long way to go to get corporations.
