SGOTM 19 - Xteam

[Htadus]

@ Hawk,

If we are considering building Sancore (not a wonderful wonder) and others in NE city, then Hague is the better Glib city. Monastary and Universities are simple whips and not too concerned. Only other wonders that benefit us will be GM wonders. So it may be better to build the NE in Hague. But, Nicea is more capable than Hague to be a truly powerful hammer city once we have workshops and running CS. Nicea also is capable of running more specialist than Hague once we are in CS and with smaller population.

My feeling is Nicea is better than Hague for the reason of being able to be a hammer city or a specialists city. It should even be better able to build late wonders with its fake Plains hill mines (workshops with CS and Guild=4h. I am ignoring Chem for the moment) since it has more food. I will wait to hear others before proceeding.

I am leaning toward Civilized Jewelers too.

Also agree with your view that there are more similarity between Fred and I in regards to Espy. I am pushing for building wealth soon as possible and Running Scientists for needed GS's instead of Spy's.

What to do with the GG? Settle in HE city is the best choice for me.

 

[leif erikson]

My feeling is Nicea is better than Hague for the reason of being able to be a hammer city or a specialists city. It should even be better able to build late wonders with its fake Plains hill mines (workshops with CS and Guild=4h. I am ignoring Chem for the moment) since it has more food. I will wait to hear others before proceeding.

Nicea is fine by me.

Hague has three food resources, it can also use one of the Sugar tiles, so it is not a bad choice either.

What to do with the GG? Settle in HE city is the best choice for me.

Settling in HE city is a good choice from where I sit as well.

Haven't had time to look at the save, in a couple of hours.

The weather is really nasty here, 50 plus mph winds and blowing snow. Just went by the beach and the waves are breaking 30+ feet up the seawalls. Would have taken a picture, but visibility was really bad and the camera couldn't get it very well.

 

[Htadus]

I just noticed Constatinople. How in the hell did we all missed that city for Glib?

 

[leif erikson]

We ruled out Constantinople so we could grow a Great Spy there for the Spy economy.

btw, you need to ensure a spy is hired there until we get one please.

H is 8-turns from Feudalism. He also has Civil Service, needs that Great Spy.

Looking good with Toku, what city should we leave him for peace so we can grab his techs?

Are the Cats and Sword for Adrianople?
Would be nice to reclaim that Ivory.

 

[Htadus]

We ruled out Constantinople so we could grow a Great Spy there for the Spy economy. Both Gspys and GS's can be used in the long run to get where we are heading via bulbing and theft. It would not be the worst thing to build it there after the next GSpy. I can not see how to do it without enough MP's.

btw, you need to ensure a spy is hired there until we get one please. I know but we lost the spy to unhappiness in that city last turn. That is why I pulled Adrianopolis units to Constantinople for MP duty to deal with 4 grumps. I have rehired a spy.

H is 8-turns from Feudalism. He also has Civil Service, needs that Great Spy. Yup agree.

Looking good with Toku, what city should we leave him for peace so we can grab his techs? Something very weak under Immortal Human hands. Not sure we know that yet.

Are the Cats and Sword for Adrianople?
Would be nice to reclaim that Ivory.

Yes those units are fro Adrianapolis acting as temp MP's in Const. I would love to figure out a way to build that Glib there but not sure it can be done faster than the other 2. But it is definitely the best place specially when Theo no longer need to use that food tile it took from the Constantinople.

 

[leif erikson]

Yes those units are fro Adrianapolis acting as temp MP's in Const. I would love to figure out a way to build that Glib there but not sure it can be done faster than the other 2. But it is definitely the best place specially when Theo no longer need to use that food tile it took from the Constantinople.

Both Gspys and GS's can be used in the long run to get where we are heading via bulbing and theft. It would not be the worst thing to build it there after the next GSpy. I can not see how to do it without enough MP's.

Calendar will help for sure.

Will have to go back and see why we rejected using Constantinople for the Great Library.

edit - discussion starts on page 16, post 316 and goes through post 320. Can't seem to find the rest.

 

[Htadus]

I followed your link and it seem that when CP suggested that we wait until later to decide where to build Glib, Fred came back saying that we should plan early. But after that, it seem the discussion completely got dropped. I am going to wait to see if Fred or anyone else want to get their thought in regards to Glib. I can play in the morning.

The concern was missing out on getting a Gspy in time when Glib is completed. We can time the two, getting GSpy first and complete Glib the following turn, accordingly but that would mean delaying the Glib for 14 turn from now.

 

[leif erikson]

Think the issue was pollution of the gene pool, in Hawk's post, by National Epic before the Great Spy popped.

Have no objections to Great Library in Constantinople once GSpy pops. Just hope we are not too late to complete it.

 

[Htadus]

Ok, I will do the following.

Continue to hire Spy and switch the Glib built to Const.

Chops in Nicea along the way into the Glib but not complete it (1 turn for 4 chops).

If it seem that we can loose the Glib complete it in Nicea with remaing forests. Else slow finish it in Const.

Playing now.

 

[Htadus]

Darn it. Is it time to turn over? I may have over played again.

Spoiler :

7-T99 (400BC) cont: Rehire spy in Const(14 turns). Whip cat for 26h OF. Music is next. Whip archer in Thessa for 20h OF. Toku knows compass.
IBT:Zzz

8-T100(375BC): Const start GLib (15 turns). Hague 2 pop whip HA. Thessa:Archer>Aqua(9). Asoka moving 2 settlers out 2 archers. Time to attack. Moving units to intercept. Move foorces to Toku's new capital.
Note: Toku does not seem to have Iron.
IBT: Spy in Ethiopa get killed. Asoka drop a city in the middel of our southern Highway.

9-T101(350BC): Troups are not in place yet for Asoka. 2 more turns. Bombard Gandor. Switching Yahe to a chariot.
IBT: AP is build under Christianity.

10-T102(325BC): Capture Gandor for a cost of 1 cat. Kill 3 units in the open. Lalabel units are going after Aksum (well defended). Thank you. South highway is close. Our spy can not distroy the iron mine but the chariot I am building is Yeha is for razing it. Asoka built a sword. Switching Espy to Asoka for 1 turn to see if we can get the spy option. Units are redy for Andrianoplis. Set science to 100% for 1 turn and 6 more to go. Completing Lib in Nicea to do some OF and chops in to GLib.
IBT: D:

11-T103 (300BC): Yeha claim the iron from Asoka. I am so happy I can cry. Switch espy back to HC. Units healing in Aksum and some moving toward Lalbella, now defended by 3 units. Dow Asoka. Varify spy hire in Const. Building a Plains rive cottage for the Capital. 270h goes into GLib in Nicea. Science back to 0% at +10gpt before DoWing Asoka and -19 gpt after.
IBT: Toku attack Lalabella team and loose 3 units. Many techs are awailable for trade.

12-T104 (275BC): Units next to Adrianapolis. Switching GLib to Const. Kill 2 more units in the open.
IBT: Zzz

13-T105 (250BC): Raze the South highway blocker city. Bombard Adriano and killed 1 units, retreat 1HA and lost 1. Final switch of GLib to Nicea and chop 1 more forest and now it can be built there this turn. No AI know Aesthetics, so GLib is safe in Const.
IBT:Zzz

14-T106 (225BC): Capture Adriano for no loss. Locate the second new city asoka founded to South of Yeha.

Building the first WE. Switch GLib back to Const. 8 turn to complete and 7 turns to GSpy (hope at 83%).
IBT:Zzz

15-T107 (200BC): Bomb Lalabelle. Move units. No one can learn Lit or Music. Const can whip GLib.
IBT:Zzz

16-T108 (175BC): Bombard Lalabella but not attack. In place for Antioch.
IBT:Zzz

17-T109 (150BC): Take Lalabella for loss of 3 cats. Whip a Market in Capital and a lib in Thessa. Bombard Antioch.
IBT: HC want 118 gold and Aesthetics for Compass. Said no.

18-T110 (125BC): Thessa has about 70 hammer overflow to finish Aquaduct and start HG next without Stone. Start SoZ in capital for fail gold or completion. This is not a bad wonder for aggressive game. Attack Antioch. Lost a bunch of cats and killed all but 1 barely surviving archer. I did not have another city taker. Oh well it will fall next turn. Many worker turns are available. we need a road to Lalabella and the stone.

ending my turn here.

We have choices.
Can finish Glib in either Nicea or Const (with whip of 3 pop). But Const need 3 more turns to get the GSpy.

Thessa will have about 70 OF hammers next turn when it finish the Aquaduct. We can either put it into HG and chop the rest of the forests or start building wealth and horde all that hammers hoping that we can connect stone in time. for a discounted HG.

We can take Antioch next turn and get MC from Asoka for 10 turn of peace. Also we can get Calander and Compass from Toku for 10 turns of peace.

However I think we should take Antioch from Asoka and take peace for 10 turns for Calander and go after Toku's copper city and then get the remaining techs from Toku.

Here is the link to central.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG019_BC0125_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

If anyone want to read the text from central let me know I have it saved as a txt file. Too long to add.

 

[leif erikson]

Sounds good! Off to look at the save.

 

[leif erikson]

Roster:
The-Hawk - UP
Frederiksberg - On Deck
Mad Professor
Cactus Pete
leif
Htadus
fishystick

Looks to me as though we should take and keep Antioch and then make peace with Asoka for all we can get. It leaves him 2 cities spread quite far apart. Only issue will be "We yearn to join our motherland".

Thinking we should wipe out Toku, we can get what we need from others and we do not want unhappiness because he is still alive.

Economy is looking better.

We have 13 cities, who is next? Nappy or Kublai Khan? They all have Feudalism except Alexander...

We can get Calendar from H for Aesthetics plus 60 Gold?
There are some GPT trade for our resources we could make.
We could Wine from Kublai for Rice.

We have a Great General, another super-medic?

We should probably investigate the nest of Barb Cities to our north. A team of War Elephant and Sword/Axe?

If we're going to take on LB's, need Metal Casting, Machinery, Civil Service and Engineering?

 

[Cactus Pete]

Just got home and read through the thread -- seems leif and Htadus have made excellent progress, and I have no pressing concerns.

I have RL tasks to catch up on today, but will try to get back in the flow tomorrow.

 

[Htadus]

If we are going to get rid of anyone that should be Asoka. His southern city will be either undefended or defended by a single archer. I was able to kill 2 roaming archers of Asoka in that area. So it may belong to Barbs or Razed by the time we get there.

I suggest that we take Antioch next turn with the sword. Then send the damaged HA to Constantinople and send the healthy HA there to the southern city. Add the HA in Adrianapolis to the party. Then send a bunch of new units to his north city to take it. He should be gone.

Continue the war with Toku to his last city. We should be able to get all the techs from him at that time. Check the diplo situation to determine the best option.

I have been thinking that in this game we may be better off going for a conquest. Keep only the valuble cities and raze all others. Keeping the AI to small number of cities will slow them down. So continue wars. I want to look into a bulb path that will give us the fastest way to Liberate Democrazy.

 

[The-Hawk]

Nice progress!

I'm good to play. Will post a plan tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

[The-Hawk]

Took a quick look.

I think our next war will be with Nappy. He is in WHEOOHRN mode and I have to believe we are the target.

I suggest taking Antioch and then making peace with Asoka.

We should make peace with Togu immediately. His cities are not that good, they can wait. Also, I would like to avoid close borders diplo hit with Kublai. I am concerned about a Taoist Jihad. Besides, we need to move units toward Nappy before he hits us.

We need to chop the jungle NW of Gondar pronto.

We should whip CH in Nicea into GLib and get it done (overflow into NE). I think getting GS points is more important than fail gold. Especially as we need Constantinople to build units for Nappy (after finishing Market).

I am inclined to build HG and not wait for stone. Looks like we are a long way from getting Stone, unless I am missing something.

We definitely should be trading resources. Wine and 14 GPT (until Nappy DOWs) are there to be had.

I would trade Aesthetics around.

 

[leif erikson]

I think our next war will be with Nappy. He is in WHEOOHRN mode and I have to believe we are the target.

He has Feudalism and LB's.

Alex is also in WHEOOHRN.

I suggest taking Antioch and then making peace with Asoka.

Can live with this. We are getting a +1 red face - "we yearn to rejoin our motherland".

edit - Looks like we can get Metal Casting and some gold in the peace deal.

We should make peace with Togu immediately. His cities are not that good, they can wait. Also, I would like to avoid close borders diplo hit with Kublai. I am concerned about a Taoist Jihad. Besides, we need to move units toward Nappy before he hits us.

He doesn't want to give us much for peace.
We are getting +2 red faces for "we yearn to join our motherland" in Toku cities.
If you think we have good chance versus Nappy's LB's, can live with it.

We need to chop the jungle NW of Gondar pronto.

We should whip CH in Nicea into GLib and get it done (overflow into NE). I think getting GS points is more important than fail gold. Especially as we need Constantinople to build units for Nappy (after finishing Market).

Thought we wanted Great Library in Constantinople?

I am inclined to build HG and not wait for stone. Looks like we are a long way from getting Stone, unless I am missing something.

Looks to me like Stone appears in 14 turns.

We definitely should be trading resources. Wine and 14 GPT (until Nappy DOWs) are there to be had.

Agree completely.

I would trade Aesthetics around.

All they will give us is Gold, unless we give them Gold as a part of the deal.
Perhaps we should research a part of a tech we want before trying to trade.
If we get a Great Spy, thinking we can steal most of what we need. We will know in three turns. Do we need to build any more spies to take advantage of this?

Still think we should send a Horse Archer up north to investigate all those Barb Cities.

 

[The-Hawk]

RE: Alex WHEOOHRN. Yes, I noticed this as well. I assume he is after Asoko.

RE: Quick peace with Asoka and Togu (and carrying "rejoin motherland" sad faces). I am mostly concerned about getting units down to Gondar. I agree finishing these guys off would be preferable, but Nappy is an aggressive unit builder and I am concerned with defending against him. Big question is how long until he attacks? Htadus, can you go back to autosaves and get an idea of when he went to WHEOOHRN mode?

RE: If you think we have good chance versus Nappy's LB's, can live with it. I am not really thinking about offense vs. Nappy. Mostly thinking about retaining Gondar. If Nappy wastes a lot of units against Gondar, then we might think about counterpunching. However, this is not the best timing for a war with Nappy (as he has LBs and we do not have more advanced offensive units).

RE: Great Library in Constantinople. I missed this conversation, let me go back and read. EDIT: OK, I see where you guys were discussing just a couple of posts ago. My only question is do we potentially want another GSpy at some point. However, it may not be a bad play to put GLib in Constantinople and run scientists plus one spy. If we get a GSpy, all the better. As Htadus points, out either GS or GSpy is a good thing.

RE: Stone in 14 turns. You are correct. I discounted Lalibela since it did not have our religion. Missed the monument. Looks like waiting for Stone is worth the risk.

RE: Aesthetics trades. I did not look closely at tech trades yet. If we are only getting a small amount of gold, then I agree not worth the trades. On the other hand, trading Aesth and a small amount of gold for a tech might be good. Keeps the AIs advanced so they can be tech partners, allows us to use our spy points to steal better techs.

RE: HA to the north. Agreed. These might be decent cities that we can collect.

 

[leif erikson]

RE: If you think we have good chance versus Nappy's LB's, can live with it. I am not really thinking about offense vs. Nappy. Mostly thinking about retaining Gondar. If Nappy wastes a lot of units against Gondar, then we might think about counterpunching. However, this is not the best timing for a war with Nappy (as he has LBs and we do not have more advanced offensive units).

Going to need some more Cats then, looks like to me. Defensive wars with Cats sure are easier, but you eat up a lot of them. Especially versus LB's.

RE: Great Library in Constantinople. I missed this conversation, let me go back and read. EDIT: OK, I see where you guys were discussing just a couple of posts ago. My only question is do we potentially want another GSpy at some point. However, it may not be a bad play to put GLib in Constantinople and run scientists plus one spy. If we get a GSpy, all the better. As Htadus points, out either GS or GSpy is a good thing.

Htadus said he wanted to look at the most efficient bulb path to Democracy. Not sure what GP's we will need for that because it is a bit different than we are used to. May have to consider Caste?

RE: Aesthetics trades. I did not look closely at tech trades yet. If we are only getting a small amount of gold, then I agree not worth the trades. On the other hand, trading Aesth and a small amount of gold for a tech might be good. Keeps the AIs advanced so they can be tech partners, allows us to use our spy points to steal better techs.

Too bad the value drops as we trade. We could trade for some gold, like Nappy's 80, and I think someone has 60, and then trade that with Aesthetics for something we need.

Toku is not in a giving mood for peace.
Should we consider taking one more of his cities so he'll give some tech up?
Or will that throw us too far out of position versus Nappy?

RE: HA to the north. Agreed. These might be decent cities that we can collect.

May also have something to do with our post Democracy mission?
Seeing expanded borders for Barb cities always smell fishy to me...

Seems we need to figure out how to pick up the tech pace.
Perhaps we should also consider what we must do if we do not get a Great Spy.

 

[The-Hawk]

I was looking at units. I think we are in for a rough time with Nappy. Gondar is on a hill, but I usually prefer to attack stacks when they approach our city vs. letting them use their siege against our stack in the city. Problem is our current units are built for city attack, not stack attack (or city defense for that matter).

I think we need to be whipping cats asap. Maybe a couple of spears/archers just in case he brings a really big stack and we decide to hunker down.

Toku is not in a giving mood for peace.
Should we consider taking one more of his cities so he'll give some tech up?
Or will that throw us too far out of position versus Nappy?

It might be worth sending a relatively small stack up to Togu. Maybe if we threaten a city he will change his tune. As I said before, I am a little concerned with taking one as close borders might put us to "annoyed" with Kublai. We don't need him dogpiling us with his religious buddy Nappy.

Seems we need to figure out how to pick up the tech pace.
Perhaps we should also consider what we must do if we do not get a Great Spy.

Yes, we are falling behind. Not a surprise given we are in conquer mode but it needs to be rectified. Good news, Htadus has us well on our way. We have (or are building) a large number of Libraries. Also working a good number of cottages. Once we get out of war mode, we can be running GS's in many cities (vs. mines). Would be nice to get Representation soon, which will happen if we beeline democracy.

May also have something to do with our post Democracy mission?
Seeing expanded borders for Barb cities always smell fishy to me...

Yes, I keep forgetting you are one of those evil mapmakers. You guys all think alike!

Joking aside, you might be right... we definitely need to sort out what is up there.