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SGOTM 19 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Feb 2, 2014.

  1. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    The path to Democracy fast is not that easy with or without bulbs.

    The tech path to Demo from current point.
    Spoiler :

    • Democrazy :crazyeye: require Printing Press and Constitution.
    • To liberate Democracy we need Philo and Education.
    • To part bulb Liberalism with a GS, we need to delay Machinery.
    • Constitution require CoL (We have) and Nationalism.
    • By skipping Guild(skip banking), we can use a GM to part bulb Constitution.
    • There are no easy bulbing option for Nationalism since GArtist bulb path is blocked by Theo(we can steal) and Divine Right. So we are going to need to learn it the old fashion way.
    • Nationalism require CS and Philo or Divine Right. Since Philo is needed for Liberalism too, we should use Philo over DR.
    • Printing Press can be bulbed by a GS.

    So here is the possible path we can take and how we can acquire it:
    1. MC >Steal/Trade
    2. Philo >Tech/Steal/Trade or bulb with a GS
    3. CS >Steal/trade
    4. Paper >Learn
    5. Education >GS part bulb +learn
    6. Liberalism >GS part bulb and switch to Machinery
    7. Machinary >Steal/Trade
    8. Nationalism >No easy bulb so learn
    9. Printing Press >GS bulb +learn
    10. Constitution >GM by skipping Guild
    11. Complete Lib >learn
    12. Democracy >Liberate


    So as a minimum we need 3 GS's and 1 GM or 4 GS's
     
  2. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Yes, this is my fear as well. The best solution is a nice stack of Cats. :hammer:

    We could always just raze the city and see who rebuilds it? :mischief:

    Ahhh, 'mids anyone? Chop it at Aksum once Stone connects?

    Nice works Htadus. Was afraid of that. Need to get to work on that then.
     
  3. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Here is my initial thinking. I am assuming we have some time before Nappy attacks. Hoping Htadus can look back at his saves to see how long Nappy has been in WHEOOHRN.

    Wars:

    Asoka: Take Antioch, then make peace. Stack near Antioch then heads for Gondar to fight Sauron... I mean... Nappy. One HA will be dispatched to scout to our north.

    Togu: I will dispatch a small force (say 3 HAs, 2 axes, 2 cats) to move into Togu lands. They will pillage farms and mines as they go (but not cottages). My hope is to extort a tech for peace. If he offers a tech, I will make peace. If he will not give us a tech, I will attack Debre Berham. If DB does not have borders with Kublai, I will keep it, if it shares borders, I will raze it.

    Nappy: Remaining units head to Gondar in anticipation of Nappy's attack. In the mean time, I think we should spam cats and WEs. If Nappy attacks, we maul his units, then counterpunch. I think a good stack of cats and WEs will be fine against LBs. I would hate to burn his stack and then not follow through and grab some cities.

    Builds:

    Back to war footing:

    • Amster: Build a cat instead of SoZ. Continue to build cats.
    • Utrecht: Continue WEs.
    • Hague: WE -> cat
    • Constantinople: Build a cat for 2 turns. Two pop whip into GLib. Then NE.
    • Sheep: Library -> cat
    • Gold: Library -> cat. Whip cat into market.
    • Thessa: Aqueduct -> cat
    • Nicea: CH -> archer
    • Yeha: CH -> cat
    • Aksum: switch to cat. 2 pop whip into library
    • Gondar: 1 turn into CH (to capture overflow), switch to spear, 2 pop whip spear
    • Adrian: continue CH
    • Lalibela: granary

    Trades:

    • Will trade resources for wine and gpt, including Nappy. May as well get some gpt before he attacks.
    • If we can't get it from Togu or Asoka for peace, I think we should trade Aesthetics + 60 to Alex for Calendar. We can gain 3 happies per city with it. Plus gain some commerce by building plantations.

    Spy:
    • Spy near Asoka's southern city will head over to take a peek at Asoka's southern city for future reference. Then the spy will head up to scout Nappy and keep an eye out for his stack.

    Micro:
    • Continue emphasis on production until we have a stack of Nappycats. Then start hiring GS.
    • I notice we are working a spy in Aksum. I assume this is an oversight, will switch to engineer unless we intended it for spy points.

    Diplo:
    • I will give in to demands. This is not the time to get dogpiled.
    • Once I have a stack in Gondar, I will no longer give in to Nappy demands.

    Worker actions:

    • Worker near Aksum will not finish chop (save it for Mids). He will move to Gondar to clear jungle. I am not going to bother to try to defend him, if Nappy attacks, he will kill any escort anyhow.
    • Workers near Thessa will not finish chops. Will wait for Stone to chop HG.
    • Hopefully will be building plantations very shortly.
     
  4. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Should we get a Great Spy, think we should have 2 Spies ready and available to try and steal some tech from H. In fact, we can probably move a Spy into H's city (forgot the name :old: ) now and let some of his 5-turns pass. :)
     
  5. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Was hoping to get input from the others before playing. However we can't delay too long. How about I play a few turns? I'll stop when the GP pops. At that point we will know what we got for peace and can discuss what tech to steal (e.g. CS :drool:). Or we will have the bad news on a low probability prophet.

    Yes, good point. I'll have Hague build a couple of spies immediately after the WE.
     
  6. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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  7. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    I am heading over to visit my daughter. I'll probably be playing mid-afternoon (eastern USA) unless one of the others pops in with an objection to the plan for the next few turns.
     
  8. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    Sorry I did not notice Nap going Fist-ie.
     
  9. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Agree with Htadus that we can wait a few turns for peace and extortion. Also, the copper city is the one to take. DB would be isolated with no roads to it or possibility of building one soon.

    Have no clue what Nappy is contemplating, but concur that we should anticipate the worst.

    Let's send the spy directly to see what Nappy is doing.

    Just a reminder for the long term: we need to uncover all the fog so we will know where all the resources are.

    Good hunting, Hawk.
     
  10. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    OK, so 12 turns in WHEOOHRN mode. I think we should assume attack could happen at any time.

    I will swing down and take a look. If I can take with a few HAs, I will. I assume it is a crap city, but if it has some nice resources, I'll come back for advice.

    Yes, but only a small amount of shared borders, and only after we pop borders. I am concerned that if we take copper city, we will get a -2 modifier (admittedly, I don't know how border diplo hits work exactly, maybe we will get it anyhow).

    yes, sounds good

    Good point, it really only means a couple more turns of war weariness. However, I am also worried about delaying getting units over to Gondar, especially given he has been in WHEOOHRN mode for a while.

    So now I am thinking... no real hurry at all. Maybe I will take all the healthier units from Togu's front to Gondar immediately. After the others heal, they can go after Togu, reinforced by the first wave of new cats and WEs.

    I tend to hate spies because the game always wants to hire them. But in this case, you make a good point. We are looking for Espy points. However, for now, I think I will go back to GE until we know where we stand with Nappy.

    yes, good point

    As I said, I am nervous about getting too many close borders. Hopefully, he will give us a tech without taking a city.

    Yeah, probably a good idea. We need intelligence on Nappy quickly. I'll scout around the southern city with the HAs before I take/raze it.

    Going to play a few turns, then pause.
     
  11. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    I have started turn 3, paused for advice:

    Turn 0
    • Set builds per plan. Do micro as we've regained unhappy citizens from wine.
    • Make 5 trades for wine and a total of 18 gpt.

    IBT
    • Togu spear pops out near Aksum. We only have a spear in Aksum, closest axe is 3 turns away. Looks like he will pillage us.

    Turn 1
    • Amster: Cat -> Cat
    • Utrecht: WE -> WE
    • Hague: WE -> spy
    • Sheep: Lib -> cat
    • Yeha: CH -> cat
    • Promote sword to CR2. He loses to wounded archer in Antioch at 87%. :mad:
    • Capture Antioch with axe.
    • Decide to whip cat in Aksum (2 pop) and move spear to our cottage tile. Hoping Togu spear will move to Dye vs. attacking our spear across river.
    • I did not notice how much gold from Antioch, but we have a good pile and are growing it because of the trades. Decide to set slider to 100% for one turn to avoid someone trying to extort our gold.

    IBT
    • Togu spear to dyes

    Turn 2
    • Gold: Library -> Cat
    • Nicea: CH -> Cat
    • Aksum: Cat -> Cat
    • Decide to let Togu pillage the dyes. Our best attacker is a wounded HA at 40%. I don't want to waste the unit on low odds.
    • Notice war weariness has grown. We are back to unhappies in several cities.
    • Amsterdam whips cat
    • Constantinople whips cat
    • Our spy uncovers Nappy city of Gazientep. It has 7 units (3 cats, 2 LB, HA, Chariot) and a settler. He may be thinking about going after the barb city.
    • Kublai goes into WHEOOHRN mode. Hopefully Alex... :eek:
    • Kublai now has Aesthetics. We can now see HC research, he is 1 turn from Aesthetics.

    IBT
    • Kublai asks us to DOW on Alex. I refuse.
    • Togu spear does not pillage... heading back home.

    Turn 3 (in progress)
    • Amster: Cat -> Cat
    • Utrecht: WE -> WE
    • One HA reaches Asoka southern city (Trebizond). It is beyond capture by HAs. Defended by a spear, a double city defense archer, and an unpromoted archer.
    • Asoka is offering Theo for peace.
    • Spy heading towards Nappy hits a mountain dead end cul de sac. He will need to go around. However, we have a chariot approaching Gondar, he will be able to scout Nappy.
    • Oh, one other minor event... Constantinople spawns a Great Spy. :band:

    Paused mid turn.

    Decisions to make:
    • I did not ask Asoka for peace for MC. If he will take that, I assume we should ask for peace? If not, do we take Theo, or should we wait until we can get some cats down there (might be a while)? War weariness is becoming a problem...
    • For now, I have Amster building a cat. However, we have a bunch now (12 built, 5 being built). Anyone have a feel for how many we need? I am thinking a few more would be good. We can always send some after Togu and Asoka.
    • Spy is 1 turn from being completed in Hague, then will need to sit in Troy for 5 turns. What should we steal? CS? Feudalism? MC?
    • Now that AIs have completed Aesthetics, should we trade it to the rest for gold? Calendar?

    Interim save:

    View attachment Trumpster BC-0050.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  12. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    Theo is more expensive than MC and will open Paper for us so I am good with that. Once we steal CS, we get the discount for having both techs toward learning Paper which should be our next tech.

    Please MM Const to complete Glib next turn and fire the spy and hire 2 scientists. Also, we should build a Market in Nicea and hire 2 each scientists and Merchants. Either GP is useful.

    Yes, lets get the available gold for Aesthetics and do some mm to complete Music in 2 turns by running 100% science.

    I am impressed with Asoka for getting that many units in that city. I am not pro wasting units on that city but it is your call.

    We need to continue building a few swords too. Is there any way to whip a Moanastery in Lalabella to get stone connected faster?
     
  13. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    I need to be skipped.

    Can't give any detailed comments, but on the spy issue why choose. Put all spies in Troy and steal all HC's techs.
     
  14. Mad Professor

    Mad Professor Deity

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    I need to be more than skipped - maybe taken off the list altogether. I know that makes the playing list a bit short right now, but there isn't anything I can realistically do about it.
     
  15. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Would trade Aesthetics now to Nappy and Alex for 110 Gold each to complete Music asap.

    Agree with Htadus, take Theology for peace with Asoka, plus the 20 Gold.

    Send the Great Spy to Troy and infiltrate the city, then send several spies there and steal him blind. We can get Calendar, MC, CS, Feudalism and he probably has Machinery. :please:
    We can go to Paper.
    Can probably trade Lit to KK and HC for 30 and 40 Gold respectively.

    Not sure we need to whip anything in Lalibela, with Music we can build culture. Save the pop for a Courthouse.

    Ok, got both requests. Hope you guys can get to participate more in a bit. We miss your counsel.
     
  16. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Good advice, thanks gents. I will play a few more turns tonight with the hope of finishing my set tomorrow evening.
     
  17. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    Played a couple more turns.

    Turn 3 (50 BC) continued
    • Make peace with Asoka for Theo and 20 gold.
    • Trade Aesthetics to two dudes
    • Hire enough scientists to get music in 2 turns.
    • MM to get GLib next turn

    IBT
    • Togu spear reverses and heads towards our horses... a non-defensive tile :mischief:

    Turn 4 (25 BC)
    • Utrecht: WE -> WE
    • Hague: Spy -> Spy
    • Constantinople: GLib -> NE
    • Thess: Aqueduct -> Wealth (I am starting to believe Nappy is heading elsewhere, so I decided to save Thess overflow for HG).
    • Chariot scouting Nappy finds 2 units in Ankara. Might he be heading for Alex?
    • Kill Togu's spear with Axe (turns out this paid a dividend, see below).
    • Infiltrate Troy
    • Spy heading for Troy but will take 4 turns, plus 5 at rest

    IBT
    • Barb LB kills an HA scouting to the south. I still have an HA heading north, but if it gets killed, I think we need to use spies to scout.

    Turn 5 (1 AD)
    • Music -> Paper (GA is sleeping in Amster)
    • Yeha: Cat -> Forge
    • Whip spear in Gondar for 2 (to get max overflow in CH)
    • switch Lalibela to culture. stone in 3 turns
    • Make peace with Togu for Calendar, MC and 30 gold. I guess that spear meant a lot to him! :D

    Pause for the night

    Questions:
    • I have started paper, but we could go Machinery and wait until we steal CS to do paper (nobody has Mach yet)
    • GG is sitting in Gondar. Should I make a super medic out of the chariot when it gets back from scouting?
    • So far I have not found a major Nappy stack. On the other hand, KK is at war with Alex who is on the other side of the map. Maybe we should back stab KK?
    • I'm thinking both HG and NE should be built before Forge. Especially HG since it might be close. However, I'm thinking Forge before Mids in Aksum. Agreed?

    Interim save:

    View attachment Trumpster AD-0001.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  18. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Looking pretty good. :goodjob:

    Will check the save in detail in the morning, I'm falling asleep at the keyboard atm...
    :sleep:
     
  19. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Note that workers are not chopping the forest SW of Const for NE. Only one turn needed, and that would seem a good use of it.

    Also note that worker north of Adrianople is building farm on the forest, thereby delaying hammers into cths for 5 turns, and there's no immediate need for a farm (perhaps send him to silk or sugar after chop).

    We could use the GA for a GA. Are we saving him for some other specific purpose? Several of our cities will grow in 2 or 3 turns, perhaps we should consider a GA at that point.

    I would be next up it seems, but have a deadline to meet by April 7. Would like to delay my turn until after that. Note that we are now no longer trailing behind in turns played.
     
  20. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Agree with most of what CP wrote. :goodjob:

    The Golden Age, is it time to consider changing to Caste?

    Wondering if we should be going for Kublai Khan and then, once we steal HG's techs, if we should go after him as his capital is filled with wonders that could help us.

    Tech path: Paper => Education?
    Bulb Philosophy and steal Machinery, if it becomes available.
    Do we need Engineering soon? Trebs?
     

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