SGOTM 19 - Xteam

[Htadus]

If I recall correct, we will get the discount toward paper when we learn both pre req's even after we started learning the tech. So learning paper is the better path. We should be able to trade/steal Machinery since AI favor it.

Is bulbing Philo the bet use of a GS?

Not much time till later.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"The Golden Age, is it time to consider changing to Caste?"
A GA and Caste are somewhat incompatible, as specialist citizens get no benefit from a GA. Would argue that we should use our GA before going to Caste.

Still think we should see what HC researches next before deciding what to tech.

Given the location of our civ in the far east and the lack of oceans, Engineering will be especially valuable in this game.

 

[leif erikson]

"The Golden Age, is it time to consider changing to Caste?"
A GA and Caste are somewhat incompatible, as specialist citizens get no benefit from a GA. Would argue that we should use our GA before going to Caste.

Agree, I was just thinking of changing to Caste before the Golden Age passes so we do not lose a turn in anarchy.

 

[Htadus]

GA and Casts go hand in hand very much. Why use specialist citizens when we need GS and GM's? Hire scientists and or Merchants or work Casts boosted Workshops.

Also AI rarely goes for Paper. Of course HC may be an exception.

 

[The-Hawk]

I thought this GA would be saved for Civ Jewelry. Remember, we need to found a corp. CJ is one of the earliest and typically has less resource tiles. If we use GA for a GA we might lose ability to found this corp?

 

[Htadus]

I thought this GA would be saved for Civ Jewelry. Remember, we need to found a corp. CJ is one of the earliest and typically has less resource tiles. If we use GA for a GA we might lose ability to found this corp?

Good point. If we need to switch to CS, then lets just eat a turn of Anarchy. GA's are not that difficult to generate in the NE city even with Glib, but perhaps we should not risk.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I thought this GA would be saved for Civ Jewelry. Remember, we need to found a corp. CJ is one of the earliest and typically has less resource tiles. If we use GA for a GA we might lose ability to found this corp?

Understood. I did ask above: "We could use the GA for a GA. Are we saving him for some other specific purpose?"

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, actions I will take:

• Settle GG in Utrecht.
• Research to 0% while we work steals and see what HC is up to. We are still 6-7 turns from stealing our first tech. I will take CS first. If HC is researching Machinery, then Paper will get our beakers.
• I am thinking about delaying revolt to Bureacracy until HG is done. I am starting to get nervous we will miss it.
• I am in the process of scouting Nappy to find his stack. Once he DOWs we can make a decision about who to backstab. KK may well be a better target.
• HG and NE before forge. Aksum will build forge, then Mids. Worse case we get fail gold.
• I got Calendar right before I paused, so I have not updated any workers. Now that NE is started, we need to chop. Same for HG. Also lots of resources to bring on line.
• Artist will sleep with the intent to use him for Corp. If we pop another GA, we can always initiate a GA at that time.

Playing shortly...

 

[leif erikson]

Under Caste, a Great Artist is pretty easy to generate. But saving it is fine for now.

Good luck and happy hunting.

 

[The-Hawk]

Got a late start so I only played 2 turns. Besides, things did not go to plan. Decided we needed to talk about our cities, so I paused.

Turn 6 (25 AD)

• Utretch: WE -> Forge
• A barb worker gets too close to a scouting HA so I grab him.
• Note that HC is researching Drama.
• Gold City whips cat for 2.
• Notice I can MM Lalibela so that culture comes a turn sooner (next turn).
• GG heading back towards Utrecht.

IBT

• Nappy completes HG.
• When I go to wonders screen to see who built HG, I notice Mids was built a couple of turns ago (by HC in Aachen).
• And I was so excited to get stone a turn earlier.

Turn 7 (50 AD)

• Hague: Spy -> spy
• Sheep: Cat -> Sword
• Gold: Cat -> Market
• Switch Thessa to a LH. Decide to save forests for now in case we want to try for another wonder.
• Start looking at cities and decide we need to discuss city specialization. I.e. which will be commerce cities and get cottages, which will be prod and get forges. So I thought I'd pause to discuss. (and sleep )

My thoughts on city specialization:

• Amster, Utrecht, Hague, Yeha, Adrian get forges. Amster is a hybrid city, the others will be primarily Prod (Hague will eventually give up 1 cottage to Amster). After Forge in Hague, I think we should put that stone to use and build Moia Statues.
• Constantinople, Nicea, and Lalibela are primarily GP farms. We should farm their grassland tiles. No need for Forges as they won't be working hammer tiles.
• Sheep, Gold, Thessa, Gondar should be commerce cities. We should build commerce and research buildings and build more cottages. Thessa might warrant a forge, but I am leaning to no. Opinions on this?
• Aksum actually can be a pretty powerful commerce city or a powerful GP farm. To complement the existing dyes, I am thinking we cottage it up. We still will be able to run a number of specialists. I don't think it warrants a Forge. I would use those chops for research/commerce infra, also we should consider Forbidden Palace here.
• In hindsight, Antioch is a pretty crappy city. I guess it will be a prod city.

Other questions:

• Alex and Nappy will give 90 gold for Lit. Should we trade it?
• Now that HG is gone, I'd vote to revolt to Bureau immediately upon stealing CS. I would stay in slavery until we are done wars (and until our cities grow out more).

Will continue tomorrow evening.

Interim Save:

View attachment Trumpster AD-0050.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[leif erikson]

Once we get Machinery, are we planning to head for a hammer economy?
Concerned we are getting late for Cottages?

Think we should go 100% research on Paper? Are we waiting on CS?

Agree we should trade Lit for the Gold.

 

[Cactus Pete]

"Under Caste, a Great Artist is pretty easy to generate. But saving it is fine for now." Saving might not be optimal. Leveraging benefits of an early GA should be considered. Will certainly help us build maces faster.

Not sure we want to revolt to Bureau when we are planning to be building units. How long before we are likely to have the option of revolting to Feudalism?

Be interested in a plan for getting Engineering sooner.

Would it make sense to partially chop/build NE in another city(s) for gold until we are better able to run multiple specialists in NE city?

 

[Htadus]

Ok, CP convinced and converted me to use the GA for a GA. Just make sure that we have full cities to run specialists and hammer cities have access to workshops or mines. We do not have to wait for windmills(Machinery) to run the GA or run a hammer economy. In CS we get 3 hammers from a workshop.

Only way we can get Engineering fast is to get a GE. GS's have too many other options before opening Engineering. However, we have several cities ready to go on building wealth or specialists. So that may not take that long.

By the way, do we have to wait 5 turns for Buro or Feud? Why don't we splurge a bit and steal Feud asap and switch the civics to CS and Vassalage since we are still on the warpath. Cr2 and cr1+Barrage1 cats can help capture cities defended by LB's.

You guys seem to want to get Maces really badly but you know it will potentially slow us down by about 2200 bulbs toward Liberalism because we learn Machinery? Of course capture gold will offset the cost somewhat.

I am not sure if we want to give both Nappy and Alex the option of building the HE with cheap Literature. They already have a boost to build units.

 

[The-Hawk]

Once we get Machinery, are we planning to head for a hammer economy? We have a lot of commerce and several GP farms. Not sure we need a hammer economy.

Concerned we are getting late for Cottages? I don't think it is too late. We are just barely out of the BCs and we need to go deep in the tech tree. I think cottages in our commerce cities make a lot of sense. There is plenty of time for them to grow out and we are not far from Printing Press.

Think we should go 100% research on Paper? Are we waiting on CS? Yes. We barely have enough gold to complete it. Once we do, we will simply be waiting on our next tech. May as well wait and get CS first.

Agree we should trade Lit for the Gold.

Leveraging benefits of an early GA should be considered. Will certainly help us build maces faster.

Ok, CP convinced and converted me to use the GA for a GA.

Not clear to me when you gents want to do a GA. Now? After we've stolen CS and Feudalism so we can revolt to Vassalage during the GA? Later when we've captured more cities to expand its use? We need to get down to a more specific plan. We also will need to commit to popping a GA at some point. With GLIB in our NE city, this might carry some risk, albeit not much (we have plenty of time before we will have corps).

Not sure we want to revolt to Bureau when we are planning to be building units. How long before we are likely to have the option of revolting to Feudalism?

Agreed... Vassalage probably is better in the short run. We could go to Vassalage in about 5 turns if we steal it first. Of course, if you want +9 maces, we need CS and Mach as well.

By the way, do we have to wait 5 turns for Buro or Feud? Why don't we splurge a bit and steal Feud asap and switch the civics to CS and Vassalage since we are still on the warpath. Cr2 and cr1+Barrage1 cats can help capture cities defended by LB's.

I'm not opposed to accelerating the steals. Spy 2 should be arriving about the time spy 1 has been settled 5 turns. But we can't be in Bureau and Feudalism at the same time, so we might as well let the spy settle for 5 turns.

You guys seem to want to get Maces really badly but you know it will potentially slow us down by about 2200 bulbs toward Liberalism because we learn Machinery? Of course capture gold will offset the cost somewhat.

I am inclined to wait until we can steal Machinery. Maces would be nice, but not critical. The less diversion from our critical tech path, the better.

I am not sure if we want to give both Nappy and Alex the option of building the HE with cheap Literature. They already have a boost to build units.

good point, but I have to assume they will either research or trade for it soon. Not sure we are buying them many turns.

Not playing tonight, I think we need to discuss the GA further.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Using the GA to get to Feudalism without anarchy makes sense, but perhaps it would be preferable to wait until the NE is completed and we are in a little better position to utilize both Feudalism and CS (and specialists to create GPs).

Concur that waiting to steal or trade for Machinery is better than teching it.

Note again that HC is only one turn from completing Drama and researching something else, which is another reason to temporarily put 0% on Paper.

Shouldn't we be growing Nicaea?

 

[leif erikson]

Agree with CP's argument to wait for completion of NE before GA.

In waiting, wondering if we should whip Cat in Aksum and use overflow and chops to build Forbidden Palace there. GA with Forbidden Palace reducing maintenance seems like it would help speed research? All those forests need to be put to a good use.

Are there any other wonders we covet that are not built?

 

[The-Hawk]

OK, I will play in a bit. I will "slow steal", i.e. not spend the extra espy points to speed the stealing. I'll play until NE is built, then pause to confirm the potential start of the GA (and civics changes).

I think we should consider Sankore. We will have a lot of cities and need to tech deep. I'll try to do some analysis and build a case later.

 

[The-Hawk]

Played:

Highlights:

• Not too much happened.
• Nappy is out of WHEOOHRN mode
• NE is just completed
• We can start stealing techs next turn.

Turn 7 (50 AD)

• Trade Lit to Alex and Nappy for 90 each
• Change sheep build to Market

IBT

• KK offers to trade Feudalism, I refuse

Turn 8 (75 AD)

• Amster: cat -> forge
• Nicea: Archer -> Market
• HC is researching Machinery!
• Trade cow to Alex for spice

IBT

• Alex demands no trade with KK, I refuse
• HC finishes Parthenon

Turn 9 (100 AD)

• Find Nappy stack in Samsun near Alex (5 cat, 2 LB, 2 chariot, 1 WE, 4 HA)
• Adrian whips CH

Turn 10 (125 AD)

• Hague: Spy -> Forge
• Adrian: CH -> Forge
• Lali whips Granary
• Trade Lit to HC for 215

IBT

• Alex asks for war help, I refuse
• Thessa: LH -> Market
• Lali: Granary -> CH

Turn 11 (150 AD)

• GG joins Utrecht
• Nappy is no longer in WHEOOHRN

IBT

• Sheep City pops Iron

Turn 12 (175 AD)

• Const: NE -> Market
• Yeha whips forge

I played 12 turns, a pretty full turnset. Therefore, I uploaded to Central so someone else can pick it up. However, if nobody is ready to play, I could play a few more turns.

Link to central:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Xteam_SG019_AD0175_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Suggestions/Comments:

• Leif's evil mapmaker instincts prove strong… the barb city to the North cannot be reached unless we build a city on the ice, then kill an ironclad.
• Aksum is almost ready to whip its Library into Forbidden Palace.
• We need to chop and farm one of the tiles east of Aksum to irrigate the corn
• I would build Moia in Hague after the forge is done.
• We are one turn from stealing our first tech. Two more spies are ready to go into Troy. I think we should follow Htadus’ advice and follow the low cost first steal (CS) with a steal of Feudalism on the next turn and Machinery on the turn after. Then we can start our GA and revolt to either Vassalage or Vassalage/Caste. This will allow immediate maces. We have a pretty strong army, may as well go bang some heads.
• We need to decide on next target. I believe Nappy has better cities and he has a shrine plus Hanging Gardens. Might be nice to kill off a nutcase as well. Only advantage I see of going after KK is we could go after HC’s killer cities next (once we are done stealing techs from him).

 

[leif erikson]

Hawk!

Looking good.

Roster:
leif - UP
Cactus Pete - On Deck
Frederiksberg
Htadus
The-Hawk
Mad Professor
fishystick

OK, I have it.

How badly do we want to build University of Sankore? Do we build it in Constantinople or someplace with forests to chop?

Do we need to convert some of our recent city conquests to Buddhism? Mostly Toku cities.

Do we need to take Hun and build a City up north where the Horse Archer is or is this a task for later?

Is it to be Nappy we attack and when, after we have some Maces? How about Trebs?

Shouldn't the Spies all be in Troy taking care of counting down turns so we can steal quickly?

What else?

edit -

I played 12 turns, a pretty full turnset. Therefore, I uploaded to Central so someone else can pick it up. However, if nobody is ready to play, I could play a few more turns. If you have time and wish to play a few more turns, please feel free.

Suggestions/Comments:

• Leif's evil mapmaker instincts prove strong… the barb city to the North cannot be reached unless we build a city on the ice, then kill an ironclad. This looks like a problem...
• Aksum is almost ready to whip its Library into Forbidden Palace. Excellent, whip this turn or next?
• We need to chop and farm one of the tiles east of Aksum to irrigate the corn Doesn't the city take care of that?
• I would build Moia in Hague after the forge is done. OK.
• We are one turn from stealing our first tech. Two more spies are ready to go into Troy. I think we should follow Htadus’ advice and follow the low cost first steal (CS) with a steal of Feudalism on the next turn and Machinery on the turn after. Then we can start our GA and revolt to either Vassalage or Vassalage/Caste. This will allow immediate maces. We have a pretty strong army, may as well go bang some heads. Other opinions?
• We need to decide on next target. I believe Nappy has better cities and he has a shrine plus Hanging Gardens. Might be nice to kill off a nutcase as well. Only advantage I see of going after KK is we could go after HC’s killer cities next (once we are done stealing techs from him). Yes, those HC cities look yummy!

 

[The-Hawk]

No, if you are able to play, go ahead. 12 turns is a long set, I don't want to abuse the spirit of the SGTOM.

RE: spies... I left them out of Troy because I read (after our first steal) that placing two spies increases the chances they will fail. I wanted to avoid that. If I read that wrong, we should place all of them in Troy now.

RE: Sankore. Depends if we decide to build monasteries and temples. I'm thinking it will be worthwhile, especially if we are a number of turns from losing Monestaries. I'll take a closer look at this tomorrow.

RE: Spread Buddhism... yes, I was thinking this as well. I held off because of unit building, but I think we should get one of our cities spamming missionaries asap. We get the civics bonus, plus another gpt in our shrine.

RE: Barb cities. I'm inclined to hold off on an ice city, the maintenance would be bad. I guess the risk is someone else will build a city in a crap location and block that lake, but it that happens we can attack and raze it. Also, we don't know our mission. For all we know the special victory condition is keeping them alive. I do like the barb city to our north. Seemed worth capturing.

RE: Lib whip... Next turn. Just wanted to put it on the handover notes so we don't forget. I like FP in that city.

RE: Corn irrigation. I meant the corn in Lalibela city limits... off to Aksum's east. We can irrigate it from Aksum's river. Looks like we can also irrigate Utrecht's wheat.