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SGOTM 19 - Xteam

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession GOTM' started by AlanH, Feb 2, 2014.

  1. The-Hawk

    The-Hawk Old Original Geezer

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    I figured I am so far behind in testing the opening turns that I wouldn't add much value. Instead, I used Fred's "Wonder Test" save to check wonder dates. Here are the results from 5 tests. The yellow cells are the earliest for each tech, also calculated an average.

    wonder dates.jpg

    Looks like AI Oracle as early as turn 33 is a real possibility.
     
  2. Mad Professor

    Mad Professor Deity

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    Worked this time. Thanks. :)
     
  3. Mad Professor

    Mad Professor Deity

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    There's quite a bit of variety. T33 for oracle is a real possibility but the other dates were all significantly later. I guess we have to go with the early ones though in our thinking.
     
  4. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    Tried Alpha first followed by trade for Polytheism and Priesthood. Ends up Oracling Currency around T34-35.
     
  5. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    There's a small trick I forgot to mention. We can start by researching Math for ~15 turns and then switch to Med-Priest. By delaying we have time to meet more AI and get a higher research bonus for techs that the known AI already have. This will certainly give some extra beakers for Priesthood because all the AI have that one.
     
  6. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Doesn't that delay Priesthood past the time we settle the second city and can start on Oracle there?

    Alpha first leading to Oracle after T33 is taking a risk. Is the reward that great?
     
  7. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    I am checking in :D and got caught up on the discussion.

    I like the fact that you are choosing to SIP. Freshwater is essential when the forests are being planned to be chopped down at this level.

    We should play the strengths of Cyrus' traits. Since he get 50% hammer boost toward building settlers, the game should focus on REX. That also mean we are going to find out the maintenance is going to be an issue. CH offer an excellent solution to this problem.

    This game should be considered a city specialized economy. Not all cities are cottage cities and not all cities are suitable for hammer or specialist economy cities. So hybrid is the way to go. As a matter of fact, any city founded after 1000BC will not contribute that greatly as a cottage city unless the cottages are on floodplains (extra food). Even then it takes 70 turns to become a town while being worked.

    We should aim to have about 12-13 well overlapped cities by 1AD at the least and well into our expansion via war.

    As for the Wonders, the mentioned GLib, NE, and the taj should be priorities as well as MoM.

    I think the first player should play the first 15 turns. We may want to hold back on the copper mine until we have an MP warrior or 2 finished. I recommend that we start a warrior and let the capital grow to size 2 and whip the warrior and let the OF build another warrior. Then finish the copper mine and let the city grow while building the granary. We need to explore and have fog busters.
     
  8. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    We don't need Priesthood until 6 turns before the targeted Oracle date.

    The way I see it our best choices are:

    1. Taking Calendar from Oracle at turn 35. This means taking some risk but the reward is large in the form of +8gpt, +2food and +2 happy faces at a critical phase in the game when gold is hard to come by.

    2. Taking Alphabet from Oracle. This can be done safely at turn 32. Then self research of either Calendar or Currency. Currency will be faster with both prerequisite techs done and Alpha will allow trade for IW and Polytheism quite soon.

    In both cases we get fast to Currency which I think is a critical tech to keep the economy going. And in both cases we start by researching Math.

    Could I persuade someone to test the Oracle dates with my first test game? It would give us an idea of the Oracle dates in a game that is not filled with industrious AI's.

    Maybe it would be a good idea to make a roster and set a time for when we start first set. Deadlines help people focus ;).
     
  9. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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  10. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    Fred,

    I ran your save 3 times.

    1st: AI built Oracle on T40 but SH was still available.

    2nd: AI built Oracle on T44. SH went about 34-35.

    3rd: AI built Oracle on T39. SH was available.

    We should build the SH and get free happy in each of our citis.
     
  11. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    Agree with Math after Priesthood, and certainly Currency will be a critical tech to have, but it's not powerful early in the game (when you have few cities), unless you have many minor techs that are tradeable, which we won't have. So, would still argue for MC, which we will probably be able to trade for more value than Currency will represent early. It also will allow Colossus, which could be valuable, depending on the map.This does not need to be decided now, though.
     
  12. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Ran another test this morning, Oracle came turn 46. Think we are safe to try for Calender?

    Tried Math for the first 15 turns and risked Scout/Warrior to meet as many ai as possible, in fact lost the Scout to a Bear. It works pretty well, just need to figure out timing. I was late to Priesthood by 4 or 5 turns.

    Proposed Roster:
    Frederiksberg - UP
    Mad Professor - On Deck
    fishystick
    The-Hawk
    Htadus
    Cactus Pete
    leif

    Propose that Fred plays through Oracle completion, that should be somewhere in the 30 to 35 turn point, stopping as needed for consultation.

    Would be nice to complete the first set by the weekend?
     
  13. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    Thanks for testing the wonder dates :goodjob:

    I'm inclined to gamble and go for Calendar with the Oracle. It seems that we can get it unless there are many industrious AI's in which case we fail in about 1/3 of the tests. 8 gold, 2 food, and 2 happy faces every turn is quite a boost early on.

    @Htadus: Our capital is not on the river so the copper is not connected. SH is indeed a nice wonder but I doubt we have enough worker turns to chop it. Perhaps we can discuss it again when we have discovered Math?

    If we all agree about SIP and start research of Math I could do the first ~15 turns tomorrow.

    Plan:

    First build is granary and settler is whipped at size 4. Worker improves corn, then cottage for 1 turn, then mine copper and finally finish cottage. After that build road to marble and 2nd city. Switch to slavery first turn. Scout and warrior explore in opposite directions (NW and SW).
     
  14. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    Are you whipping the granary or switching to settler and whipping the settler before finishing the granary?

    During my test I found the city to grow very fast and a second worker seem to be the better choice at size 3 working the corn, copper mine ( yes I realized during the test that the copper needed a road on one of the river tiles to be connected to the capital) and the fp. Whip with 1 pop and continue to grow to size 4 while building the Granary. The second worker is magic on this kind of a start. Give it a test before playing please.

    Like Math or religious tech as first tech. I could not found a religion going for Meditation but I did not work the lake. So Math is a good choice and hope we run into AI's who discover religion to get the discount.
     
  15. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    "The second worker is magic on this kind of a start. Give it a test before playing please."
    Strongly agree with benefit of whipping second worker (using overflow from settler), and you might test benefit of MC trading as well.
     
  16. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    The testing I've done reveals that the ai's will research the religious techs first, so taking MC will not result in the trades you are advocating. Did not see Alphabet until after turn 70 or so. If we had Gems, Gold or Silver, Forge would be worth its weight in gold but those resources are not visible. Perhaps if we find some, that could change.

    We do have Calender resources that we can take advantage of and should imho. Getting those cities grown and producing commerce is important. And that leads to a second Worker, definitely worth building.

    iirc, once the city hits size 4, it is change to Settler and whip it. Granary is hand built.

    I'm happy with the plan. :)
     
  17. Mad Professor

    Mad Professor Deity

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    Plan looks good. We need to get rolling.
     
  18. Cactus Pete

    Cactus Pete Deity GOTM Staff

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    As reported, I got trade for Alpha on turn 59, and MC would have been (I had CoL) useful then. However, if that's definitely an unusually early date for Alpha, then I'm fine with Calendar.
     
  19. Frederiksberg

    Frederiksberg Deity

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    Lots of questions and ideas :goodjob:

    Maybe setting a deadline helped with the activity level ;)

    Tech: CP has a valid concern regarding our ability to trade for Alphabet when it becomes available. I think we can address this problem by taking Calendar because it will increase our tech rate immediately and we can have Currency ~T54 for trade with Alpha. Check my save from this >> post <<. I played this very fast so it can probably be improved upon and actually I forgot to trade :). But if you load the game you will see that Alpha can be immediately traded with Currency. Also note that we already have 5 cities so the extra trade route is beginning to matter. One more thing that is enabled by Currency is building gold. This is a very nice option when there is no meaningful infrastructure to build. Remember that workers and settlers can't be built for more than one turn. They MUST be whipped.

    Micro: Settler is whipped and granary finishes next turn using the overflow. 2nd worker is whipped as soon as the capital regrows from 2 to 4. Trying to build the worker earlier seems clearly suboptimal.
     
  20. leif erikson

    leif erikson Game of the Month Fanatic Administrator Supporter GOTM Staff

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    Yeah, this is what I recall doing. Agree that it is a good way to do it. :goodjob:
     

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