SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

[shakabrade]

Doshin

So, Oracle in gems isn't viable.

Then, GLH loses less. I still dont agree GLH yields as low as Duckweed suggests since it relies on too many bets. Also, GLH capture will probably be difficult. There could be a maze of ice since I dont believe mapmaker would make a map covered with 74 percent of water. Thatd seem lazy.

We lack exploring WB to find us stone to cut cra* and go for Mids. Sailing is a tech to go, IMO. Dont forget about exploration in all that micro. I know that exploring units always seem like a waste in a heavy micro, but they can turn the table and at least fogbust a bit.

 

[Doshin]

The Cow site only has 1BFC Forest, so will struggle. We could whip a LH with 59/60H or 29/60H into a Library at 29/90H. Add in the Forest and we will have 88/150H. But the food surplus is very poor without a LH (+3F at size 2, +5F at size 3/4) and the city lacks a Granary, so we will be whipping away resource tiles to queue buildings that we won't benefit from for several turns.

There's one second-ring Forest as well. Is that 24H? If so, 112/150H would still demand 8 turns of slow growth (Cows + Gems + city center = 5HPT).

T64 would be a generous estimate. Perhaps 4 turns slower than the capital, and all that whipping without a Granary will waste ~50F.

----

edit: although I showed earlier that we can research Mathematics ourselves just as quickly as we can bulb it, I'm beginning to think a Math bulb will be advantageous regardless. This will let us pick up several very useful techs that the non-bulb route has to avoid.

The main three techs would be: The Wheel, for Worker movement and happiness (Furs); Pottery, for Granaries and production; Archery, if barb defense is needed.

A 1 or 2-turn Library is easy enough to build in the capital, if we combine OF from a 1-pop Settler whip (to settle the island) with a chop (on the island tile to be settled).

 

[kossin]

As I said earlier and Duckweed re-pointed in his reply lately...

The difficulty with Oracle here is that we will not have Marble and there are not that many forests for north Gem site. Unless we go straight to Priesthood after BW, it becomes a workforce issue: we could keep the second gem un-mined so that 3 BFC forests (3*30) + 2 outer ring (2*24) + 1 further (16?) = 154H but that's a crap load of worker turns (over 25 worker turns).

Not sure why we're just concluding this again. Cow-city won't cut it either, it's the same problem over again. 1 BFC forest, no production and no granary.

With current plan, we're not getting Oracle outside capital before T60 unless we devote everything towards it. Alternatively, we could settle city #3 further northwest to get more BFC forests by grabbing corn+gem - although we lose 1 gem this way.

~~~

With a 3rd AI on our continent, Alphabet becomes slightly more desirable, even if it is Shaka. I don't recall whether WvO likes to beeline it though.

 

[Yamps]

Hmm, I've tried a few runs and I'm not sure what to think. For one, going for Priesthood before Writing seems too slow. It also feels rather forced to build the Oracle anywhere else than the capital. I'll try again tomorrow.

@Doshin

What was your intention with the 2 workers? Chopping the gems and mining, and then 1NE to other two gems for some pre-chopping?

@Duckweed

When you say stack whipping, do you mean whipping two different items on the same turn?

 

[Duckweed]

@Yamps

Stack whipping is that you whip 2 things, either in the same turn or different turn. The key is that you finish a small build 1st, let the OF from the small build into the bigger build, therefore you could get OF of maximum of 30H* number of whips. Since we will learn PH earlier than Math, we don't need this trick.

I tried a quick a test last night, T61 Oracle in Cow site. I could upload the save later if you want to take a look. Oracle in Gem site might also be doable, but requires to borrow wheat for longer time to do more whips.

 

[Yamps]

@Yamps

I tried a quick a test last night, T61 Oracle in Cow site. I could upload the save later if you want to take a look. Oracle in Gem site might also be doable, but requires to borrow wheat for longer time to do more whips.

Sure, I think that would be interesting to all.

 

[Doshin]

@Doshin

What was your intention with the 2 workers? Chopping the gems and mining, and then 1NE to other two gems for some pre-chopping?

Both chop the Gems. Then both mine.

@size 2, the city can either work the Grass Forest for an instant Workboat (= 30/30H), or wait one more turn until the Gems mine is complete, working the Lake instead (+1F -2H overall... I think).

After mining the Gems:

T1.

Workers A and B: move 2S1E.

T2.

Workers A and B: move 1SE.
Worker A: farm (3/5) and cancel.
Worker B: move 1NE.

T3.

Worker A: move 2N1E.
Worker B: move 2N.

T4.

Worker A: chop (1/3).
Worker B: chop (1/3).

T5.

Worker A: chop (2/3).
Worker B: chop (2/3).

T6.

Worker A: chop (3/3). Hammers go to capital.
Settler 3: found city. Work Wheat.
Worker B: chop (3/3). Hammers go to Galley.

T7.

Worker A: move 1N. Mine Gems (1/4).
Worker B: mine Gems (2/4).​

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This assumes that the Settler is 1-pop whipped in the capital. If you choose to slow-build it, have both Workers farm on T3 (farm = 4/5) and then have Worker A complete the farm on T4.

Worker B should go to the Gems via the NE, if it is safe and can fogbust a few additional tiles while in transition.

 

[Duckweed]

The fastest Oracle to take Currency should be T60, with additional 1 pop whip of Oracle itself (Edit: should be 1 pop whip of a warrior to get additional OF), or if we get a lucky forest (summoning soundjata) in BFC. The latest is T62 if we don't want a pre-Math, outside culture chop of 8H.

There are still some changes, and micro-improvements can be made from the test. Mainly the OF control in Cow site.

Spoiler :

Edit: Since the test was created with BUFFY, from around T50, I had to restart the game whenever loaded a save.

 

[Doshin]

Here's another attempt to compare with Duckweed's save:

Spoiler :

I haven't tested this, but I wonder if we should use the island city (Crabs/Fur) to whip another Worker when it grows to size 2 or 3? We only have two Workers for all our cities.

 

[Yamps]

Some nice tests here! I'll focus on the immediate part and write the plan till Sailing when I get back home from work.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Ok, I've tested what happens when Sailing is skipped in favor of beelining Oracle.
Oracle can be done faster than Turn 60, but Mathematics cannot.
(Actually, 1 turn faster might be possible if Sparta works gems in favor of growth 3 extra turns, but we lose a forest chop later)
In fact, Math has to be manually researched to get Currency to Oracle on Turn 60.

The micro is very tight. (Priesthood, Writing, and Math all come down to 1!)
In fact, it is ridiculously convoluted. (Have to put slider to 30% or 60% at precisely the right moment)
The island cities are delayed 15? turns and Math is manually teched instead of bulbed, but Athens and Corinth quickly get a Library and the corn city gets settled as our 4th. (2E of corn?)
Sparta can make a Library on Turn 60 with the chop, or put everything into a Settler.

And playing further, we can bulb Alphabet on Turn 65.
So maybe this method is ahead in tech after all?
With the island cities strategy (Sailing 1st), might have half of Alphabet researched by Turn 65?
Playing past Turn 59, Sailing was achieved Turn 63 and The Wheel on Turn 65.
Hopefully Pottery+Animal Husbandry+others could be traded with Alphabet bulb.
Or maybe there is luck and AI already has Alphabet and we don't have to bulb anything.

Not sure how empire development compares.
Had a nice early exploration workboat, early 3rd worker, and plenty of warriors.
Fur City on the island doesn't get settled until Turn 66-68 as our 5th city, but a worker can be dedicated to it chopping Granary and improving/roading fur.
Barbs streamed towards Sparta from the southwest.

Turn 59 Test Game

 

[Kaitzilla]

Rather than write the micro out, I'll just post some screenshots.
All screenshots are taken at the very end of each turn.
Revolting to Slavery on Turn 32 is a good idea while the workboat is sailing.

Test Game: No Sailing

Turn 30-39

Spoiler :

Turn 30


Turn 31


Turn 32


Turn 33


Turn 34


Turn 35


Turn 36


Turn 37


Turn 38


Turn 39

Turn 40-49

Spoiler :

Turn 40


Turn 41


Turn 42


Turn 43


Turn 44


Turn 45


Turn 46


Turn 47


Turn 48


Turn 49

Turn 50-59

Spoiler :

Turn 50


Turn 51


Turn 52


Turn 53


Turn 54


Turn 55


Turn 56


Turn 57


Turn 58


Turn 59

 

[Duckweed]

I like some features of Doshin's test as those are what I'd to see. Without chopping a second outside-culture forest gives the improvement of Fur and Cow, which is more efficient usage of worker force. I have not look at the save, I guess that Doshin might do 3 whips in the Cow site, further sacrificed the Cow site, but I think this is still worthy since I don't like the danger of sending the worker to chop a forest of 8H in my save.

The other difference might need further evaluations. Capital size 4 and 1 turn earlier of 5th settler seems better than gem site of size 4. I consider the gem site a pure commercial city and a base of warriors. We could do 1 pop whip of a worker with a chop here.

Katizilla's test should be the safest result to Currency, however, lacking of Sailing has huge impact on the expansion to setup 2 GP farms. I prefer to risk a bit more for a better shape of empire.

@Yamps

One important thing in your test is the movement of warrior, which Doshin and my save ignored, while Kaitizilla managed them.

 

[Doshin]

Nice testing all.

Revolting to Slavery on Turn 32 is a good idea while the workboat is sailing.

Good idea. I had been doing this immediately, but this is better.

------

Looking at the three tests, I still think that getting four cities with Sailing is the way to go. The island city will need a good number of turns to be set up (LH + Granary + Library, with only 1 Forest) and by delaying the 4 city, we delay the 5th and 6th cities. The Fish site also looks like a more promising GP site/5th city than the Corn.

Alphabet is probably an unnecessary tech for us to research or bulb, at least for a while. There are 10 AI and Willem *should* research this for us. There is very little to backfill at the moment... perhaps Archery and Iron Working.

Growing the Gems site to size 4 (as I did in my test) is a mistake. The city itself desperately needs a Granary, but a Granary benefits our empire as a whole far less than a Library, Warriors, and a Worker. Hence it is better to keep the city at size 3.

Like Duckweed, I prefer not to chop an 8H Forest to complete the Oracle. I whipped 3 times in my test, but looking at Kaitzilla's game, I wonder if two whips could work, with correct micro and tile improvements.

My test and that of Duckweed look a little light on fogbusting Warriors. However, if Shaka is near to us, this shouldn't be an issue.

In the real game, the Galley can help explore the Fish site and perhaps fogbust for a short while, after the island Worker has returned.

 

[kossin]

Nice tests!

Sailing can be difficult to trade (military tech + wonder) so skipping it in favour of Alphabet is risky.

re: Fur site
How about also chopping the Fur? Sure, we lose production over time but the city gains a bunch of food this way to speed up its GS. By the time the 1H from the spare forest catches up in pure production (30 turns) and before this 1 hpt manages to produce something interesting, the city is almost irrelevant.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Finally got around to doing the Health Bar Trick.
I don't trust it as much using a Scout since the hp bar is so tiny that it makes accurate reading difficult.
It appears to indicate that the strongest unit in the game on Turn 0 is 3 and the strongest unit in the game on Turn 30 is 4

Mansa Musa doesn't appear to be in our game.
If we want monopoly techs, we should focus on getting Willem to Friendly since we started out +3 with him.

Interestingly, Shaka started out -3 with Willem.
Test game didn't simulate Shaka whom I consider the most dangerous warmonger in the game, so we should keep both eyes on him once he opens his speech with "Fear my Impi!"
2% chance each turn he'll go to war with someone (us ) once he gets a strong unit.

 

[Yamps]

re: Fur site
How about also chopping the Fur? Sure, we lose production over time but the city gains a bunch of food this way to speed up its GS. By the time the 1H from the spare forest catches up in pure production (30 turns) and before this 1 hpt manages to produce something interesting, the city is almost irrelevant.

I think I missed that, are we planning to pop a GS in Fur city?

If we want monopoly techs, we should focus on getting Willem to Friendly since we started out +3 with him.

We'll see, he might be too weak judging by his low land count.
________

I agree with Duckweed's and Doshin's comments. Sailing next to help fast GP farm setup is the way to go in my opinion as well, especially since we've seen that it doesn't hinder the Oracle date. I'll spell out all the details to get us there in a few hours, it should be pretty straightforward after all the work that you've guys done so far.

 

[Doshin]

New attempt:

Spoiler :

The main things I am unclear about in this fall at the end of the save: how best to build a Settler, Granary, and Workboat without chopping.

 

[Doshin]

re: Fur site
How about also chopping the Fur? Sure, we lose production over time but the city gains a bunch of food this way to speed up its GS. By the time the 1H from the spare forest catches up in pure production (30 turns) and before this 1 hpt manages to produce something interesting, the city is almost irrelevant.

It's difficult finding the Worker turns, but after the Oracle it could be possible. It will depend upon the plan.

 

[Yamps]

Here's the test game till Sailing, please check to see if everything is okay. Some key notes:

• Research: 0% at T30, 100% at T31, 0% at T36 and again 100% at T37.
• Worker micro like Doshin described in post #207.
• T32 revolt to Slavery when WB done
• T36 settler 1 pop whip in the capital.
• The scout stays put for spawn busting until our warrior arrives to city spot 3 and then moves to the choke point forrest 5N from our third city.
• After arriving at city spot 3, warrior keeps moving in the NW direction since other tiles would be spawn busted by the scout and two workers.

Possible issue: the scout could encounter some barb warriors. If that happens, I'll pause for team comment.