SGOTM 21 - Plastic Ducks

[Doshin]

Great. I asked for the 3-vote confirmation because the save needed to be uploaded anyway.

I gifted the 100G and played the turn to its end (I can't see how the hidden objective can change any micro this turn, and I don't really want to upload 3 times only to play again tomorrow...). The next player need only hit enter to begin his or her set.


@BSPollux

Spoiler :

Catherine#1 please.

 

[BSPollux]

Good morning. I just woke up like ten minutes ago. 5:50am on a Sunday, I must be crazy. Hint incoming. You guys are quick Updating post.

Edit: Done. Now you got your 'first impression' on each lady.

Edit2: Mind uploading a pic of that scouting WBs location?

 

[Doshin]

Catherine#1

Spoiler :

Catherine ("Catherine's heart has to be conquered. You will have to prove your might to her by...")
a) Take control of the worlds most important resources: Control 4 aluminum, 6 uranium and 10 oil resources (control = have inside your borders and connected to your trade network).
b) not yet revealed
c) not yet revealed

----

Woodsman I exploration:

Spoiler :

From an earlier post:

Spoiler :

Shaka has 4 cities now, and the 3rd or 2nd is coastal.

Work Boat:

Spoiler :

Log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1480 BC to 1400 BC:

Turn 63, 1480 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: The borders of Sparta are about to expand.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: The borders of Sparta are about to expand.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: The borders of Sparta are about to expand.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: The borders of Sparta are about to expand.
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 63, 1480 BC: The borders of Sparta have expanded!
Turn 63, 1480 BC: Isabella adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 64, 1440 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Argos has been founded.
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Athens will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 64, 1440 BC: You have trained a Worker in Thebes. Work has now begun on a Granary.
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Shaka has founded Bulawayo in a distant land.

Turn 65, 1400 BC: Athens has grown to size 4.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Athens can hurry Granary for 2⇴ with 34ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 16 turns.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Willem van Oranje will trade Deer
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Willem van Oranje will trade Deer
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Willem van Oranje will trade Deer
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Willem van Oranje has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Willem van Oranje will trade Deer
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Will Sign Open Borders: Shaka
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Athens.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Sparta will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 65, 1400 BC: Sparta will grow to size 4 on the next turn.

I'll update the test file later tomorrow.

 

[Duckweed]

Now we need to revise our strategies seriously.

It's almost a conquering victory game plus deep into the tech tree.

 

[Doshin]

Yes. It's quite a long game now. Izzy's demands are very mild by comparison.

 

[Duckweed]

We should take a look at Izzy's and Cathy's other tasks when we capture enough workers. GPs are quite tense now since we need to plan for at least 2~3 golden ages and should find a marble resource for Taj. I think we still need fast Astro+Eng to capture cities as soon as possible.

 

[Doshin]

Looking at the hints:

Spoiler :

Elizabeth ("Elizabeth wants to be treated like the queen she is. You need to impress her with unique status symbols, like...")

Isabella ("Isabella is all into romantic gestures. My first suggestion to win her heart would be...")
a) Have the most brilliant minds of your time explain to her that your love is pure, true and eternal (bring one artist, scientist and prophet to her capital and gift them to her)

Catherine ("Catherine's heart has to be conquered. You will have to prove your might to her by...")

I think it's fair to assume that all objectives will be variants upon this theme. Willem is a good trading partner, but if he gets stuck at 3-4 cities we may do better to gift our Workers and then take them back in a war for the extra info.

I don't mind Elizabeth#1.

"Romantic gestures" seems the most vague of the three and, although Isabella #1 is not great, researching beyond Physics makes things a little simpler.

"Conquering" and "proving might" to Catherine might have an easier objective involving the Manhattan Project. Catherine #1/2/3 sets the finishing date.

 

[Duckweed]

It's a beaker race now, so we should try to avoid giving away GPs.

Looking at the map, there are quite a few tiles allow Fort bridge for fast conquering of our continent.

 

[Doshin]

3 bulbs to reach Astronomy and Engineering might be better than 4 now.

It's a bit late, so I will sleep on it and see what everyone else thinks in the morning.

Good night.

 

[Yamps]

Hmm, is it still best to avoid Civil Service and to go for Astro/Engineering directly? Another option would be to go via Education and Liberalism. Not saying that's better, but some consideration would be good to hear.

The trouble with Cathy is that she might ask similar tasks for #2 and #3, for example controlling Sushi resources. We still have to ask, if there is a conquer the world option it would be much faster than #1. However, I'm afraid there won't be such options since there is an obvious intention from the mapmaker to make this one a longer game rather than a quick conquest one.

 

[shakabrade]

The unit will just suck up any GGs that we'd usually settle, e.g. 10XP (attach GG to Warrior and upgrade x3) followed by 20XP (attach to Galley, upgrade, gift). We also won't have a Heroic Epic site or a strong Bureau capital, which is where settled GGs usually shine.

We might be able to get 10XP through battles, but even attacking Galleys poses a risk to Galleons (unlike using Destroyers, or super medics to mop up after siege), so we should probably expect to attach 4GGs, as you say.

I think 3GG would do. There are going to be a lot of barb galleys to repel since we don't have GLH and won't settle that many islands. And there is a lot of time to accomplish that.

Now we need to revise our strategies seriously.

It's almost a conquering victory game plus deep into the tech tree.

What I don't like is that these first goals are so long-term that teams who don't know the tasks yet and have built GLH won't be at any disadvantage at all. I now actually think that Currency first is a better move than GLH which I was more into, even though I was sure this was a long game, but these first hints are simply not rewarding us. I don't think we have made a mistake, that's what I want to say.

We need some long-term commerce. Like Mids. If there is some stone here:

Spoiler :

we could chop them in our capital, especially with very slow stone wonders worldwide, but early Astro is actually a priority, as it was. We need to capture GLH and Mids faster sooner than later. Maybe even steer away from our optimal conquering path.

It's a beaker race now, so we should try to avoid giving away GPs.

Looking at the map, there are quite a few tiles allow Fort bridge for fast conquering of our continent.

Agreed. Izzy's first task is a no go for me.

Regarding Forts , at least we can cross our continent North of Sparta.

Hmm, is it still best to avoid Civil Service and to go for Astro/Engineering directly? Another option would be to go via Education and Liberalism. Not saying that's better, but some consideration would be good to hear.

The trouble with Cathy is that she might ask similar tasks for #2 and #3, for example controlling Sushi resources. We still have to ask, if there is a conquer the world option it would be much faster than #1. However, I'm afraid there won't be such options since there is an obvious intention from the mapmaker to make this one a longer game rather than a quick conquest one.

Lib --> something big like Physics for me. Civil Service can wait for Astro since we really don't have bureau capital here. Overseas trade routes will more than compensate.

 

[Duckweed]

Our biggest loss for now is the 225g to learn all 3 tasks, those gold could be used to speedup economical techs. The cheap bulb of the Math let us safely land the Oracle and develop cities faster, maybe still some loss. We probably lose 1~2 turns for the final result. Not a big deal if we could make the right decision in the rest of the game.

I have thought about the strategies again and we probably need to a completely change. The thing that does not change is more cities, mainly from conquering.

1. Keep the original route. The merit is the fast war paces and being able to take the wonders(GLH and mids) and resources(Stone and Marble) we want early. The bad thing is that many of the intermediate techs could be traded otherwise and we also deviate the economical tech tree such as CS and Edu.

2. Traditional economical route. CoL->CS->Edu. Wait for Construction and focus on digesting our own continent. The pros and cons are of course opposite of route 1.

The Corn site (6th) is a good site for gathering original SOD with chops. The 7th city should be either the Iron site (if necessary) or the south Fish/Whale site.

The things that I'm not clear is whether we want academy (prone to not have it). Another thing is that shall we research Construction ourselves or wait for trade.

 

[Duckweed]

We need some long-term commerce. Like Mids. If there is some stone here:

we could chop them in our capital, especially with very slow stone wonders worldwide, but early Astro is actually a priority, as it was. We need to capture GLH and Mids faster sooner than later. Maybe even steer away from our optimal conquering path.

Mids is good if we are going to run a lot of specialists. If we still want to bulb to Astro, it could help, we can see it immediately with the warrior in the galley, but there's really very low odd.

Lib --> something big like Physics for me. Civil Service can wait for Astro since we really don't have bureau capital here. Overseas trade routes will more than compensate.

We won't lack oversea trade routes now after we meet Izzy, there are probably more AIs in her continent and we will find out soon.

 

[shakabrade]

Our biggest loss for now is the 225g to learn all 3 tasks, those gold could be used to speedup economical techs. The cheap bulb of the Math let us safely land the Oracle and develop cities faster, maybe still some loss. We probably lose 1~2 turns for the final result. Not a big deal if we could make the right decision in the rest of the game.

I have thought about the strategies again and we probably need to a completely change. The thing that does not change is more cities, mainly from conquering.

1. Keep the original route. The merit is the fast war paces and being able to take the wonders(GLH and mids) and resources(Stone and Marble) we want early. The bad thing is that many of the intermediate techs could be traded otherwise and we also deviate the economical tech tree such as CS and Edu.

2. Traditional economical route. CoL->CS->Edu. Wait for Construction and focus on digesting our own continent. The pros and cons are of course opposite of route 1.

I like current path more since it allows us to influence the entire map and we can take better and developed research cities earlier. We don't have enough of cottages and we also lack +2 trade routes per city (GLH) to make Universities and Oxford worth their while. Those resources can take better research cities, as already mentioned. We can probably get stone earlier with Astro to make Oxford cheaper. Specialists will have to do. I still dream about Mids, though. They would pay for themselves in a long conquest game, even without stone.

The Corn site (6th) is a good site for gathering original SOD with chops. The 7th city should be either the Iron site (if necessary) or the south Fish/Whale site.

The things that I'm not clear is whether we want academy (prone to not have it). Another thing is that shall we research Construction ourselves or wait for trade.

No Academy for poor little Athens if you ask me.

We won't lack oversea trade routes now after we meet Izzy, there are probably more AIs in her continent and we will find out soon.

I'd gamble that one of the islands to the South has Iron, and others Uranium and Aluminium.

One more thing, although these hints are extremely fun, I'd refrain from buying more of them for some time since we are poor and backwards. We know the game is long term since these are objectives that can be achieved first (in mapmaker's mind), that it is basically a conquest game, and that is actually enough for a time being to set our path.

I am very happy with our exploration so far.

 

[Duckweed]

I'm still undecided about which path we should go for the moment. If there are stone and especially Marble in our continent, I'll definitely go for the traditional route.

Even without them, the traditional economical route still have its strong merit:

• Less loss of beakers on techs that we could trade for.
• Save GPs for better usage later.
• Earlier war on our own continent.

It turned out to be a long game, I think you should try to fix your computer to actually play the game. If you are still unavailable for the moment, I could take the next set, probably short turns (To reveal who is Shaka's target and CoL) and hand it over to kossin when he is available.

 

[shakabrade]

I'm still undecided about which path we should go for the moment. If there are stone and especially Marble in our continent, I'll definitely go for the traditional route.

Even without them, the traditional economical route still have its strong merit:

• Less loss of beakers on techs that we could trade for.
• Save GPs for better usage later.
• Earlier war on our own continent.

We can speed up war on our continent with Astro too. But if there is stone and Marble, I am more into number 2. Without them, I am currently for number 1 without giving it too much of a thought.

It turned out to be a long game, I think you should try to fix your computer to actually play the game. If you are still unavailable for the moment, I could take the next set, probably short turns (To reveal who is Shaka's target and CoL) and hand it over to kossin when he is available.

I haven't got the time to cope with backuping and formatting, especially with sister in law staying with us for a week. And, also, I am gonna try to fix the overheating graphics card myself. Unfortunately, I have lost the tube with thermal paste so it will have to wait for the next week but I have gotten all the fine tools for the task, at least. It's a 5 and a half year old computer and I am too cheap now to buy a new one now that I rarely play games. Anyway, next Sunday is the most optimistic time when I should be able to play. But I can test.

 

[Yamps]

Hmm, I'd go for Construction next and then via route 2 after the war. Benefits:

• We get to take AI cities much earlier.
• We could gift workers to Willem and retrieve them rather fast by completely eliminating him early in the game.
• We delay committing to GPP plans while we don't know what Liz wants for #2 and #3.
• Better tech path order and GP usage for a longer game.

 

[Doshin]

I didn't really discuss scouting of the north, but this was where we were on T61:

Spoiler :

I wanted to scout the Desert tiles for seafood resources, before we settle the Corn, and to scout the tip of the island.

We can fully fogbust, using the Galley for a small # of turns:

Spoiler :

So now we are at:

Spoiler :

The Scout can go:

T66: 1W1E
T67: 2SE
T68: 2E
T69: 1SE 1N
T70: 1E 1W.​

The Settler in Corinth should be ready to move out on T70.

If you want to check the eastern tip sooner, using the Galley should be quickest.

----

For the Woodsman Warrior, we can either locate Shaka's stack, or see if the area NE of Utrecht is worth grabbing from Willem:

Spoiler :

^^^ it looks like the road NE of Utrecht continues NE as well as SE to the Deer.

 

[shakabrade]

If you want to check the eastern tip sooner, using the Galley should be quickest.

Stone would change the micro. I'd go for Mids in that case.

For the Woodsman Warrior, we can either locate Shaka's stack, or see if the area NE of Utrecht is worth grabbing from Willem:

Stack for me. There is no metal in the forest. NE passage for Shaka's units (he is probably North of Willem) is sealed with Amsterdam's border (Amsterdam is 1N from Clams) and Willem is 5-6 turns from IW and probably 5-6 turns away from Writing. We are pretty safe from Shaka at the moment.

I think that fist can emerge even when AI is planning to take the barb city. No code verification since I am not a code diver; just my observation.

 

[Doshin]

Apart from exploring, the next four turns are mostly set in stone (no pun intended):

• Athens: Granary ---> WB (need to complete this at earliest opportunity, for Fish Island @ size 2)
• Sparta: work Grass Hill on T66; 1-pop whip Granary on T67
• Corinth: WB (completes @30H on T67) ---> Settler (2 Workers complete chop on T68, whip T69, produced on T70)
• Thebes: grow on Granary. Worker builds road and will then chop the non-resource Forest (after 5 turns, we should evaluate whether we want to chop or keep the Fur Forest).
• Fish Island: at 6 , start to work a Coast tile, so that 2F is in the foodbin when the borders expand (then work Fish).

Basic goals are all achieved:

• (Mostly) optimized Granaries in Athens, Sparta, Thebes, and Fish Island.
• Optimal set-up of Fish Island (2 Fish worked ASAP, 3rd Fish comes after the Granary).
• Earliest possible City #5.
• Scout can follow my original plan, and we will have mapped all settling sites by T70 (by the time the Settler produced).

The Sparta micro has some small flexibility:

1. We can choose to 2-pop whip a Granary on T67. This is bad for whipping away a resource tile (Gems/Cow/Crab) but produces lots of OF. Only needed to produce Archers in an emergency.
2. What does Sparta produce after the Granary, while growing to size 4 and size 5? I would favor a Work Boat, so that we have another explorer. Archers are better if we find Shaka targeting us. Another Warrior could explore around the Horses.

We could bank during these turns, or research Archery in 1-turn if necessary. There are no techs that would help us in this time.

After T70 there is a lot less certainty,(e.g. does Athens dampen growth by running Scientists, building a Settler, or...? Should Corinth produce a Work Boat, Library, or Granary? Should Athens or Corinth produce the 3rd Work Boat for Fish Island? Should we chop the Fur Forest? Have we found Marble or Stone by now? What is the tech path? etc.

----

AI can definitely target barb cities with a red fist, or even while they are at war. I am not sure Shaka knows about the barb city we have seen.

BTW, one AI already has fewer soldiers than us.

---

edit: if we want our Scout to be free to explore after T72ish, and not fogbust, micro there would need to change.